UKC

I sometimes used to find it frustrating on the occasional problem at the Manc Depot that it was tricky to get down from the top of a problem without jumping.  But it wasn't too bad.

Fast forward two years and it's really pissing me off.  The obvious factors in this are:

The fact that they're opening endless extra amazing rooms ( which is brilliant BTW) which mean that the routes are naturally more spaced out, so the concentration of holds is lower so the chances of finding something easy to climb down is lower.

I'm approaching 50.  My knees really object the week after if I've been doing any significant jumping/ falling.

Last week there were a fair few people having issues getting down. Most of the youngsters jumped, which is fine, but that's not a long term option for me.

When they did my son's unsupervised assessment last month they reiterated the

Don't jump off

Don't grab the top of the wall

Down climb

Try not to fall in am uncontrolled way.

Now the above is all fine if you're climbing purples, reds, yellows because:

1) by definition the chance of finding an easier route nearby to climb down is higher.

2) they quite often put a couple of red arrowed downclimb jugs near the top of the harder routes.

If however, your limit is black or blue then there are often sod all options apart from jump, fall or traverse along the top of the wall to a decent descent route.

I've spoken to a few of the staff about it, but they're not interested. I guess they have a huge number of young climbers ( ie <40) and don't really need the old punter demographic.

I do wonder what will happen though when they have an accident and the record shows that the climb in question was by far the easiest way down from the top and there was no other option but to jump/fall

In reply to TheGeneralist:

As an oldie with suspect knees I agree. I spent several days struggling to walk upstairs after a recent session.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I sympathise, I'm suffering from a (hopefully temporary) back-knack and need to down-climb to avoid spasming pain.  "Luckily", I'm based at the Leeds Depot, so while it's crowded and possibly a Covid-fest, the limited space means that the problems I usually do (Reds and Purples, the odd Yellow) are intermingled enough to provide lots of White / Blue  / Black down climbs).  I went to City Bloc recently..... interesting problems but it makes the Depot feel like a kids' playground - tenuous and crimpy moves at height and no easy down climbs.  I felt fraught and had back ache for a few days after..... loved it mind....  

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Even for young people there's no reason to jump, it may feel fine now but if you constantly jump off you are accumulating damage which will bite you later.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Eden Rock is the best wall I’ve climbed at for down climbing holds and though not throughout the entire wall it’s the step in the right direction and other walls should follow suit.

Especially after as you mention, most walls advise/suggest/demand you to down climb. 

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Agreed

As big friendly moose says, I find too much jumping and I get problems with my lower back.

Luckily the climbing hanger in Swansea is quite good for easier down climbs on a lot of routes. 

I really wouldn't want to go to a wall where you had to drop off the top of too many problems.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Agree completely. I'm a bit younger but have been plagued by back problems as an adult, and as such try very hard not to jump from height.

I have jarred my back at least twice from jumping down. Perhaps I will report it and complain of lack of down climb options if it happens again. (Not specifically aimed at the depot, other walls do seem to have the same issue)

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I’m not sure if this link will work but for a lot of people it is something we can work on - if we want or are able too:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUz6GS8DqYQ/?utm_medium=copy_link

I try not to do flagrant self promotion but I felt this may help some. 

I also agree that down climbing jugs should be more widely used. Being able to drop/fall from the top doesn’t mean I want to do it every time. 

In reply to TheGeneralist:

This has prompted 3 thoughts from me:

You should probably speak to the centre manager rather than the staff in general. 

Raising as an issue on a forum may still help, as they won't want bad press.

I'm really happy to just about still squeeze in as a 'young climber'! 

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I'm in the old/ knackered category now and probably do indoor bouldering more than other types of climbing. Unless you're actively training for something I'd probably just climb stuff that I'm likely to be able to climb down (like I would outside) as they don't really have a duty to provide an easy route down. I'd definitely keep raising it though, maybe on their own social media as well. 

I have a memory that Mile end wall used to have some very high bouldering but with amazing mats you could jump off from very high up, but maybe I imagined it? Matts seem very hard these days!

In reply to TheGeneralist:

It is just basic isn't it? Every problem should have an accessible down climb even if you have to ape side ways along the top for a move or two. 

In reply to TheGeneralist:

One problem with big downclimb holds is the can be an absolute menace if you fall off the harder problems, I've currently got a very sore knee from bashing it of a black jug slipping of a slopy purple. But then again I'm still bendy enough to drop off the top.

In reply to ebdon:

I agree big hold can be s menace  especially on slabs, but unlikely to be an issue withDC holds as by definition they're at or near the top of the wall.

In reply to philipivan: If all you're doing is stuff you can downclimb isn't that rather missing the point... well it will be for an awful lot of people anyway.  They may not have a duty per se, but it is definitely 'best practice'

With slabs you just need to partition the problems laterally - easy one side, hard the other..

In reply to ian caton:

Totally agree. Harder problems you can usually just rainbow down, but if the easiest circuit is at at your limit there are very few useable extra holds to help on the descent. Also beginners are arguably most likely to hurt themselves jumping off, as they wont have learned how to land safely.

Id love to see an extra colour of hold used solely to give extra holds for descents. Don't need to be massive, just something that can be used effectively for hands and feet to link any gaps and make the descent less intimidating.

Edit - sausage fingers

In reply to Jenny C:

The Sheff Depot have started using these on the comp wall.  Theirs are white with a contrasting red down arrow, quite classy.
https://coreclimbing.co.uk/buy-holds/climbing-holds/geo/geo-down-climb-jugs...

Downclimbs are a bit sparse elsewhere, but the top of the other walls is one long continuous jug so it's easy enough to monkey along to a downclimb even if it's a few metres away.

In reply to deepsoup:

Yes that's exactly what I mean. 

But I disagree about descent always being easy on the other walls. Just because it's an "easy" problem doesn't mean that the climber will find it easy, or that they won't get to the top totally pumped and unable to reverse the moves. A few down climbing holds would be a very welcome addition on some of the level 2 circuits.

In reply to deepsoup:

Good to hear. Well done them. Jenny's point is important.

In reply to Jenny C:

I didn't say it was always easy, I said it was easy enough (for me).  There is definitely room for improvement, no argument from me there.

That said though, obviously there is only so much you can do to help a climber who is at their limit and running out of juice at the top of a problem at the bottom end of the grade range.  Adding a few downclimb jugs higher up on relatively slabby problems is cool (and it's heartening to see that a lot of places are getting much better at setting interesting problems as opposed to jug ladders at the easier grades) but when the problem already consists entirely of jugs, adding more doesn't make much difference.  At that point I guess the only answer is a top rope.

Fortunately the other thing the Sheff Depot has to offer is acres of space on the mat to drop and roll like an old-fashioned parachutist.  My knees also do not like it when I attempt to land a jump or fall elegantly and I've had some pretty scary near misses elsewhere (especially in the Corridor of Death™ during ludicrously busy evening sessions in the before-time) with people not realising we don't all land like a cat neatly contained in a one-foot square of mat right next to the wall.

In reply to deepsoup:

The real problem I've seen in various Depots was with occasional tricky blues and blacks or easier reds that were hard to reverse and which had no easier problems nearby. I thought that was what Jenny was talking about, not the begginer sets. In my experience staff often responded when issues were pointed out (but that might have been influenced somewhat by who my usual partner was).

Marked descent jugs at the top of the wall will also give an easier escape for an unfinished problem for someone really struggling.

In reply to All:

Bloody hell. I had assumed I was a lone voice on this one.  Thanks for the input.

(They do indeed have some lovely red arrow DC jugs at Depot Manc, but pretty much exclusively on the hard problems.)

In reply to TheGeneralist:

It be nice to have more problems imo.To many walls are obsessed with aesthetics of using big volumes etc thus excluding the possibility to down climb using rainbow mix of holds.

In reply to racodemisa:

Don't get me started on adding comp routes with big volume-style holds! One of our local walls does this and every time they set a comp they ruin several decent existing problems (by that I mean, rather selfishly, that they make them impossible for me) by putting large volume holds in awkward places that either hide holds or throw you off balance on the original problems, which are never re-set to restore the original grade.

Downclimb holds are something I am seeing crop up in more and more places. Is interesting because years ago nowhere used them but they seem to be growing in popularity. Centres fear of being sued for injuries sustained when dropping off the wall perhaps?

Is a lack of downclimb holds really a big issue? What do people do when climbing outside with no easy alternative downclimb?

In reply to geckoboy:

Top out.  Don't climb outside.  Top rope maybe?

In reply to geckoboy:

As others have highlighted it’s largely down to centres now being larger (and the walls being higher) and the problems being way more spread out, so there’s often not the option of an overlapping easier problem to climb down 

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Nowhere is ever perfect, but I think the Sheff Depot manage it pretty well. The big volumes are mostly on the comp style wall, with a couple of descent jugs near most stuff to smear back down the wall. My poor old knees would like the jugs to end lower down, but I’ll take whatever I can get.

On the rest of the wall, there’s usually a white, blue or black within reach, or a quick rainbow across the top of the wall to an easy way down. I take on board Offwidth’s observation about having to descend tricky blacks or blues at the harder end of their ranges. However, it’s no different to climbing in Font or anywhere outside, you get into the habit of having a quick look at the way off and decide if you like the look of it or not. Probably not a bad skill to pick up.

Picking up on another post, Eden Rock is tremendous and seems to have its distribution of descents arranged really well. That and great route setting.

As someone also extremely averse to jumping off, I’d describe the Pudsey Depot as extremely well set in terms of acceptable ‘escape’ down climbs.

In reply to harold walmsley:

I am with you there.Imo half the problems using these holds have a 'shop window display ' function.for social media.Obviously doesn't apply to comp walls but  the large volume style holds do inhibit the ability to have a greater number of problems with smaller holds say..Catering dare I say it to the outdoor orientated climber trying to use indoors to readapt to outdoors.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

The people I'm most worried about are not experienced. It's way too common someone falls when frightened,  stiffened up as a result and ends up off to A & E. Indoor bouldering can more easily inadvertently drag people out of their comfort zones. It might be because they get themselves stuck in a weird position they can't reverse, run out of steam with the effort or just the setting makes things especially hard to reverse. Bail holds can be important.

We try and encourage people to try to down-climb all problems (ie don't rainbow unless you have to) when they start bouldering indoors, just to get used to the different movement and get practice, but we don't see so many other people doing that.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I recognise the problem but would also say that the Depot in Manchester is the best place I go to in this regard. I went on Wednesday and did a lot of problems and I don’t think I was forced to jump off the top of any of them. 
blochaus in Manchester has a top out wall which is very good but it probably only amounts to 25% - 30% of their total bouldering. 

In reply to geckoboy:

It is an issue. Centres expect you to sign a form saying you understand that you should downclimb and not drop from the top. Then they set problems that leave no option but to drop from the top. Probably because the setters all climb 8a and can't imagine someone stuck at the top of a 6a. So the comp wall gets downclimb holds coz then the setters see the point in them when they can't climb down.

If I'm outside I get lowered down, hoping that peg doesn't snap coz I didn't want to loose any gear.

In reply to Offwidth:

One of my pet gripes is the problems with crux moves at the top. I know we are going to experience this outdoors, esp on problems where the top out is harder than the route. Working a crux move at the top indoors isn’t necessary, and constantly decking as you work it isn’t good for anyone.

There’s one wall that I stopped going to which had a fair bit of this, plus corridors of death, plus regularly crazily crowded, plus bunches of people sitting on the mats ‘reserving’ problems. The Sheff Depot has been a real positive experience on the whole. As we are likely selling up next year, I’m looking forward to a new set of local crags and indoor walls to experience.

In reply to thread:

I'm all for downclimb jugs on hard to escape/isolated problems where you can't downclimb a nearby, easier problem.

I did once find that a hard climb at my wall had a downclimb jug situated in between the penultimate and final hold on an insecure and reachy slab problem. The position of the jug was such that I could not force myself to go for the quite poor final hold and always bailed to the closer and safer jug. If the jug wasn't there I think I would have given it more and actually got the top.

TL;DR, don't just chuck downclimb jugs any old place they can interfere with otherwise good problems.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I have 2 excellent hip replacements that have allowed me to return to climbing at a decent standard (for me). 

And I'd like them to stay that way.

When I was in post op the surgeon advised me that if I was going to continue to climb I really ought to try to avoid impact situations. So jumping off from the top of a problem is something I simply don't want to do.

The fact that I sometimes end up having to do this at the otherwise excellent Manchester Depot is very disappointing. More judiciously placed down holds would make all the difference

Please get it sorted. 

In reply to colin struthers:

I to have a hip replacement ( long standing ) and never need to jump from the top .. I break the rules though by often traversing the top of the wall and coming down the easiest option .. makes for a proper workout and good fear training !! This whole thread is a bit much ... hope youre well Colin

In reply to Michael Johnston:

The trouble with traversing the top is usually getting a faceful of 5 year old chalk and dust that is about 2 inches thick.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I’ve not been to the Manchester Depot but based on your post the Sheffield Depot seems to be much better in this respect, for example easier climbs next to the blacks to climb down.  

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Down climb jugs are a good idea but I found sometimes you only get 2 or 3 so you still have to jump from a reasonable height which some of us are of course trying to avoid doing too often. 

We (at Indy Wall) simply make sure that there are always juggy, easier problems to down climb regularly spaced throughout the wall, and near harder problems, without them getting in the way. 

It's a double win as you get to down climb and there are more easier problems for punters and for warming up on the different angles. Can't have enough easier problems in my experience.

In reply to racodemisa:

What now? Big volumes that rely on body positioning can translate very, very well to grit/sandstone movement patterns if problems are well set. 

In reply to ianstevens:

Just nice to have a balance sometimes this not evident that's all.

In reply to racodemisa:

A balance is good - I always enjoy when walls set problems with ratty little crimps. However, you were alluding that problems with big volumes were only good for the gram, and not for actual skill development for rock (which is of course not what walls entirely about anyway). When in contrast, they are very good for the grit/sandstone

In reply to ianstevens:

For Some problems yes I agree.Not all.When did you last rock on a tiny pebble at your limit indoors ? It just be nice to have zones say like comp walls which are outdoor simulator zones where the setters can even replicate their favourite out door cruxes..sport ..trad..boulder.

In reply to racodemisa:

Plenty of problems where I’ve  had to rock onto small holds. Lots of setters use outdoor moves as inspiration for indoor problems all the time (I certainly did when I used to set). Not entirely sure why you need a specific area of the wall for that.

In reply to ianstevens:

With respect Going around in circles here.Specailly as I hijacked the original post which imo was pretty pertinent.So I'd just sum  by saying from an experienced punters point of view there's a lot of wasted space at alot of walls today..It doesn't really effect me as I live back up north now with outdoor stuff aplenty.Plus I recently discovered the delights of a kilter board which in a lot of ways has  totally satisfied my needs for now.I only wish I had access to one in London in the last couple of years