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Are there enough boulder problems at your wall?

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 DeanB 29 Apr 2018

Hello, what are your views about the density of boulder problems at climbing walls?

I've been constantly running out of problems to do at my local wall and I just see loads of empty space on the walls that could be filled with holds. I've spoken to the manager about it and he says that customers just don't like seeing so many holds and that walls are the way they are nowadays for aesthetic reasons. I've been to quite a few walls and he seems to be right, most walls tend to set boulders very far apart and gravitate towards using aesthetic holds and big space using volumes.

I like the setting in the top picture, it's much more conducive to training. Not only can you have far more set problems but customers can create challenges and work weaknesses, the game 'add a move', is far more interesting at a wall like that! I understand that there are standardised system boards out there with this kind of hold volume but they don't change and regretfully I have access to none anyway.

You could argue that it's harder to set problems on walls with this amount of holds and I do agree that it could be difficult but I think it would also push setters to break out of repetitive setting styles and do something new.

I appreciate that some might feel that the top picture is overboard but the bottom one is just what I get every-time I go to my local wall and I feel it is overly restrictive. Maybe a compromise?

I'd build my own training wall if I had enough money to buy a house but that's just not conceivable for me. My local wall has so much room and it just doesn't use it. I watch a lot of climbing media and lots of strong climbers have access to commercial walls more akin to the top picture. 

What do you guys prefer? Should walls use more holds, are there walls in the UK that you know of that are suitable for myself? I'm considering moving and I'd like to move to a place with better suited training facilities.

I don't expect a climbing wall to only have super dense setting, sure they can have competition walls with sparse problems but not the whole place.

Anyway, this isn't just a rant, I'd like to know what experiences other people have and whether you agree. Then I will know whether it's fair to further pursue the matter at my local wall.

Picture 1

http://themorningfresh.com/files/2014/08/IMG_2438.jpg

 

Picture 2

http://www.mockrock.co.uk/recent-projects/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/854361...

 

 spenser 29 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

Personally that wall in the first picture looks like the climbing wall equivalent of Charnwood Quarry (ie. not worth visiting more than once). The only things which overly dense route setting leads to is people hitting holds while making big moves, a tendency for setting more powerful moves than necessary as delicate moves get kiboshed by massive slopers throwing off your balance and hacked off customers.

The high density setting seems to be something which is really common in the US, like a great many other things which are seen as acceptable in the US I don't think this should become accepted in the UK, I would certainly change where I climbed if presented with that kind of setting.

OP DeanB 29 Apr 2018
In reply to spenser:

I think you're right to say that dense route setting leads to hitting holds while making moves but I think on steep climbs this is less of an issue, you certainly couldn't do this on a slab. At the same time I think a part of climbing is being coordinated with your hands and feet so this doesn't happen. Haha, maybe I should move to 'murica. The wall I started climbing at was much more like this and I miss it but it's not in a place I'd like to live again.
I've this kind of dense setting in an Austrian and Norwegian wall also. The top picture is extreme but check out this video of Magnus Midtboe's wall, ( youtube.com/watch?v=leuF_ByZ5M8&   around 13:30 you get a good view). Also  youtube.com/watch?v=FOp7e9kJl58& I just think this kind of set-up is badass and have yet to see something like it in Great Britain.

 althesin 29 Apr 2018
In reply to spenser:

But Charnwood is one of the only natural crags where the routes are regularly changed!

On topic though, I much prefer sparse setting, much easier to see the route and less danger of holds getting in the way or injuries on falling.

Removed User 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

I think that top picture just looks a mess.

I can see the attraction of the wall featured in the lower picture but depending on how big the bouldering center is and how busy it is the novelty could soon wear off.

I'm guessing that wherever it is you boulder isn't extremely busy very often, if it was then presumably the owner/management would increase the density of problems in order to attract more business and keep existing customers happy. There also has to be some thought given to safety and the practicality of problems crossing each other etc.

Where do you normally boulder, or if you don't want to name names could you tell us which city you're in?

Ideally you need to move to Sheffield then you can boulder at the Works, with a monthly trip to the Foundry just to remind yourself how good the Works is.

Wiley Coyote2 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

IMHO they are both wrong, going from the sublime to the ridiculous (or vice versa) The top pic is just far too dense, OK for a system board but bewildering for a wall. That said, if I went to the second wall I'd feel short-changed. There is room for at least another 50pc and possibly 100pc more problems there. The fabled happy medium is required..

 Arms Cliff 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

The top pic is Steven Jeffrey's home wall so not something you're likely to find at a commercial wall!

 trouserburp 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

Definitely the latter. The top one makes my head hurt and using the holds would be like plucking berries from a thorny bush.

I think there's some interesting psychological observation to be made about the verbosity of your post and the density of your climbing holds

 afx22 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

That latter picture is far more preferable to me.  It's lots safer - giving climbers space to climb and to not land on each other. 

You can go too far with this though...  Imagine you've just topped a problem that has used all of your power and endurance - it's a pain trying to get back down without jumping off, if there aren't enough easier holds to grab / stand on.

When there's loads of overlapping climbs, there can be confusion about what colour each hold is.  They can all look similar when covered in rubber and chalk.

If you only want to train, then the various systems boards fit the bill.  Most of us want to climb, for fun.

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OP DeanB 30 Apr 2018
In reply to Removed Usergilesf:

I used it as an extreme example, I think it would be bad for business for a commercial wall to have that many holds. For me personally, though it would be great. The first wall I climbed in was more like that, it was council run and maintained by climbers who trained for the outdoors i.e. it had less of a commercial focus.

I think somewhere in the middle would be best because I enjoy being able to make new problems with holds already there. 

The wall I climb in is fairly busy but I think it tailors itself too much towards one off customers and just forgets that climbers like myself have membership and expect more. I'd set the problems myself if the manager would let me. I don't think crossing boulders is too much of a problem if the wall is steep, can't think of anything going wrong there. Assuming that other customers use sense and don't begin climbing under your problem. 

Don't want to name it! 

Have a look at this wall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leuF_ByZ5M8&t=811s

That's what I want, not as extreme as the example in my original post. My wall is so big, so much unused space, I'd like at least one bit like the video.

OP DeanB 30 Apr 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

They are extreme examples, well the top one is anyway. The bottom one is an unfortunate reality for me. There's just nothing at the wall. I have membership and after one session I have done everything. Maybe there'll be five boulders left for me to work on for the next month or two but I just don't think it's enough. There is a lot of wall space that could be filled in for people to train but it's often got some huge comp style problem taking up most of it. 

OP DeanB 30 Apr 2018
In reply to Arms Cliff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leuF_ByZ5M8&t=811s this is at a commercial wall in Norway. This is ideally what I'd want to see at a climbing wall. I wouldn't expect the whole wall to be like that but at least a section for that kind of creativity. Some walls have system boards but I like the idea of a densely set wall that changes now and again.

Younger climbers can't have personal training walls these days!

OP DeanB 30 Apr 2018
In reply to afx22:

Surely if climbers are landing on each other that means that they just aren't waiting their turn or giving others enough space? I can't see how more problems can cause that?

I want to climb for fun too but it's much more fun to climb outside when you have a training wall that better prepares you for the outside.

 Arms Cliff 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

That's just a couple of boards at different angles, the majority of walls have something of this ilk now. If your wall doesn't that's unfortunate for you!

 Bulls Crack 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

Solution is a 'natural' section where you make up your own problems

 

I find the minimalist trend very very uninspiring 

 Lord_ash2000 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

You've got the get a good balance in terms of density, the video you posted is clearly a training area at that wall, not a standard area of the climbing centre, they are just making up problems and there are no set routes it would seem. 

At my local wall, I'd say it's a medium density, slightly more than your 2nd pic but obviously nowhere near your first. And even then it can get frustrating on hard problems when large holds are placed close to small holds on hard problems. Usually, because the hard circuit has been set first then a lower ranking setter has come along and thrown a load of 4+'s up across the walls with no consideration for what the moves might be on the hard problems.  

Everyone wants more problems to go at but as I mentioned above, even at fairly conservative hold densities you start to run into difficulties pretty early on. Yes to some degree this can be reduced with more considered route setting but in the real world, this isn't going to happen to the degree needed. 

Basically, unless you can persuade them to set a greater number of harder problems which will keep you busy for longer then you just need to get on an LED moon board or something. 

Post edited at 16:23
 stp 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

It's an interesting post. I think there are quite a few factors involved though.

The first thing is how much climbing surface area a wall has. If it's pretty small then the only way to have a lot of different problems is to put a lot of holds on like the first image. But for walls with a lot of surface area that makes less sense. For a start, it would require a huge investment in actually buying the holds. A wall near me, Awesome Walls, has a fairly reasonable bouldering wall but doesn't have enough holds to put on it. This means there simply aren't enough problems to make it a worthwhile place to boulder on a regular basis.

Another wall, the Climbing Works, has a lot of climbing surface area so the problems aren't that dense and don't need to be. However, that leads to another important factor. At the Climbing Works the circuits are changed on a weekly basis so there is constant supply of new problems to try. If they weren't changed so regularly then having more on the wall at any one time might be needed. It's also possible to make up your own problems on existing sets of holds.

I can definitely see the value in having a wall plastered in holds like in the first image. These allow a near infinite number of problems to go at in a potentially very small space. But most people it seems, like to have set problems to try. It's more like bouldering outside where the challenge is already there. And I suppose a climbing has to remain attractive to what most people want in order to maximize customer visits.

 stp 30 Apr 2018
In reply to DeanB:

> There's just nothing at the wall. I have membership and after one session I have done everything. Maybe there'll be five boulders left for me to work on for the next month or two but I just don't think it's enough. 

This sounds like a very poorly managed wall. They need to buy more holds and change the problems more frequently. If the wall isn't that busy they won't be making much money so the cheapest solution would be to get more holds and have semi permanent setting which allows climbers to make up their own problems. They could even get second hand holds that other walls are selling off. Have you spoken to the manager about it?

 

OP DeanB 01 May 2018
In reply to stp:

I've been to the climbing works for comps and it has a lot of wall space. Additionally it does have a good amount of holds and actual training boards so I think it's a good wall. My only complaint with it would be the 'set routes' on the circuit board, I think an endurance wall should just be filled with random holds so you can really mix it up and laps don't get boring! 

In fairness my local wall is predominantly a leading wall but I tend to spend more time doing boulders as I don't have a frequent training partners. I train for routes so compact boulder setting allows for link ups, variations and close problems for 4*4's. I.e. probably an outlier in requiring this layout.

I will speak to the manager again about this but I fear there is too much of an emphasis on gaining new customers rather than satisfying long term customers.

 stp 01 May 2018
In reply to DeanB:

> My only complaint with it would be the 'set routes' on the circuit board, I think an endurance wall should just be filled with random holds so you can really mix it up and laps don't get boring!

Well there's nothing to stop anyone making up their own circuits and problems on the circuit board. Plenty of climbers do just that. Sadly the board shrank a little a few months ago to make room for another, less steep systems board.

 

> I will speak to the manager again about this but I fear there is too much of an emphasis on gaining new customers rather than satisfying long term customers.

Well good luck, and remember the customer is always right.

 

 BC 22 May 2018
In reply to DeanB:

Hey Dude, 

Just a heads up. Be careful about posting stuff like this on here. Some people might take offence. I get what your trying to achieve and understand your opinion. However, this really isn't going to change anything... 

 

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