UKC

Following on from the tube belay device thread Kendal wall is having a crack down on belaying following a few near misses. 

As I understand the closest was a guy decking while high clipping the 5th draw while his be layer was stood too far from the wall. They have also had a few foot injuries to people belaying barefoot who've kicked the wall while holding a fall. 

As a result they are asking that you belay next to the wall until the leader is 4 quick draws up and then within approximately 2m after that and that footwear must be worn. 

I have seen a few climbers not take too well to the quiet chats the staff have had with them, but personally I say good on them. They don't want anyone getting injured and also injuries mean higher insurance and entrance fees which affects everyone. 

Play safe folks x

I am just about to go to Kendal wall, I expect to see yet more examples of crap belaying, even the big new petzl posters outside the loos have had  critisism.

To be fair to the Kendal staff, they have always done regular walk throughs , checking for poor knots and belay practice's. So not a crack down as such.

Thanks for this post.  I'm glad to hear that that wall is taking that approach.

After the two recent threads, it serves as a reminder that good belaying goes far beyond whether one uses a Gri Gri, Click Up or some other ABD as oppossed to a tube.

A few weeks ago, I was at The Quay, sitting on the bean bags by the autos between auto routes when someone walked backwards into me. He was standing 20 feet out from one of the lead walls, was using a Gri Gri and his mate was resting on a bolt. The rope was probably at an angle of 40 degrees or less to the horizontal.  And for some reason, even though the rope was locked in the Gri Gri and there was no clear size/weight differential between them, he thought it important to walk back even further (and into me).  But why?  One can easily hold a resting climber standing next to the wall, whether using a tube or ABD.  Standing out from the wall is totally unnecessary, particularly that far out. And what happens when the leader sets off again? Stay where you are or walk quickly towards the wall and in either case hope that the leader doesn't suddenly fall?  If you stand that far back on trad outdoors, you seriously risk unzipping the pro, particularly if the leader falls or is resting in the gear.

I've seen loads of indoor belayers standing someway out being pulled into and up the wall on lead falls. Some seem to find it fun. It happened to me once years ago when a heavier partner took a lead fall. I was 4 feet out but bare foot. I didn't manage to get my feet flat against the wall, hit with my big toe straight on and thought I'd broken it. Never again. I always belay wearing shoes and stand close to the wall, as I always do for trad.

Another one of my indoor belaying bug bears is seeing a constant loop of two metres of slack maintained in the rope including from the start, presumably because the belayer thinks this creates a soft catch, but without thinking about the decking risk in the first three or four clips.

Indoor walls create increased distraction and increased risk of a lack of concentration. And the risks are worse with bad belaying technique.

Always watch your leader. Always be prepared for them to fall or slip off at any time without warning. 

As for ABDs, they are not the solution for bad belaying. Accidents still happen with them.  And it leaves belayers who have only used ABDs with insufficient skills and practice to belay on outdoor trad, particularly double-roping.  I would never go trad climbing with an indoor taught climber who's only ever used an ABD.

Belaying with a tube is not rocket science. Yes, an ABD may potentially help a bad belayer hold a fall. But I believe that if you don't have the basic skills to belay properly with a tube, you shouldn't be belaying at all.

I saw this a couple of days ago at the wall; the struggling leader was between the 2nd and 3rd clip and could easily have decked. It's a dilemma; if you speak to the belayer immediately you risk distracting him at the moment when the leader happens to fall, and if you say nothing you risk just letting it happen. I approached both of them afterwards and the reception wasn't friendly. 

I think I have my calculations right, if I haven't then please correct me. 
If a belayer stands 3m out from a wall with a 60kg climber at 10m height these are the forces. The rope tension is 588N and the upward pull is 560N - 95% of the full load. However the inward pull is 167N which is 28% of the load and quite a significant force to pull the belayer off balance. These are of course static loadings and don't take into account the impulse (dynamic load) created by a fall.
I do sometimes stand away from the wall when top-roping to keep my rope from interfering with the climber and to swap sides to suit the top few holds, but I am always wary of the above effect.

Re. What you do trade climbing- doesn't matter.  Different situations, different delaying.   That's common sense

Can we test this? I have a load cell..

I was politely informed of the risk of standing too close to the wall at the weekend, as the staff member thought I might be pulled upwards and bang my head on a hold. I was standing slightly to the side of the line being climbed with a climber significantly lighter than me so this was not a real risk, however I had seen the new notices and didn't mind being asked to to consider the risk, even if on this occasion he was being a little over zealous. I thought the sign mentioning the near misses was a great idea. 

Ah, they haven't installed a crack where you can practice your trad belaying down at Kendal wall then? 

There are a few cracks! But, I wouldn't trust the structural integrity of that 1990s fibreglass enough to belay off them. And there are a few of those Edwardsesque artificial "gear placement" tubes in the wall by door. There's also a "bat cave", but I think it's full of enough dust to give a vacuum cleaner an asthma attack... I have thought about multipitch possibilities, though! Girdle of the main wall comes to mind...!

Are you taking account of the friction at the anchor?  A lot of the climbers weight is getting transferred to the anchor, not the belayer.    If this wasn't the case top roping would be pretty exciting when the belayer was lighter than the climber.

If the belayer stands out from the wall there will be more of a 'wrap' at the anchor and a second order effect will be more friction.  Which doesn't make standing out from the wall a good idea!

Having been in that situation I used a weight bag or a floor anchor.  

I wonder how familiar they are with the Edelrid Ohm?  That device gives you more added friction if you stand a bit further out (not a long way, just a couple of metres), directly under the first bolt and you get almost nothing, completely opposite from the way you should normally belay.

That said, sideways works just as well, so 1.5m (say) to the left of the first bolt is as good.

(Some walls seem familiar with it, some not - has anyone ever heard of a wall not allowing it?  The people I climb with are much smaller than me but the device makes it safe - it has drawn some funny looks before!)

Yep, I get bored of seeing this, and if my belayer does it they get a lot of shouts of "take".  There is no need for laziness.

If you're top roping you can make that even more effective by putting a twist in the rope deliberately, though walls don't like it as it causes extra wear and so you'd be better off using a weight bag/ground anchor/Edelrid Ohm.

At walls with "gear placement cracks" you normally do it on a "ghost rope", don't you, i.e. not actually hold a fall on the gear?  No fibreglass wall has the structural integrity of rock.  Redpoint has one and while I've not been for years they always had you belayed on a top rope while using it.

Agreed, good move. The belay police will have their hands full mind,  I reckon at least 50% of belayers at KW would fail scrutiny.

However.......it undermines their own 'No food and drink" posters when the staff patrol clutching a mug of tea!

Took me a while, bravo sir!

Our wall actively encourages putting a twist in if there is a weight imbalance. It is a great way to help people belay comfortably and doesn't increase wear all that much. 

I don't like using a sandbag at all. It stops you from moving around appropriately to react to your climber and then if you do still get lifted (they are usually only 25kg, less than the weight difference between myself and the climber quite often) then you have a sandbag bashing around your feet and once you do regain the ground the bag almost always ends up on your rope!!

I am happy with a twist to add some friction and the ability to continue to belay well from the first clip. I often get lifted and that's ok. 

That's definitely a thing... climbing with a mate on one of their first trips outside. Looked down halfway up a fairly modest route to see the rope drum tight, them belaying well back and my gear drifting gently down the rope, him thinking "nothing to learn here, Steve's rubbish at placing gear" 

That's one reason I love the Ohm, probably the best 90 odd quid I spent in a climbing context other than harness and shoes.  It means the belayer can belay normally rather than having their movement restricted and means that they only "feel" a normal weight person on the device.  It's done wonders for my leading confidence, particularly as due to rope position it's a bit cack-handed top-roping with one so I lead nearly everything now.

For anyone who's not used one, the effect is something a bit like putting an Italian hitch on the first draw, but without the difficulty pulling up and taking in slack that that would cause.

With a 65kg (approx) difference between me and my usual belayers (yes, I'm slightly heavier than both of the two of them put together), it makes a heck of a difference and is far, far less cack-handed than using two or three weight bags at once.

Yes, I do like the Ohm. I tend not to bother with it on top rope, as I just don't really find it necessary, but it's a great bit of kit

Yes, I was being wry - or, trying to be!

I usually think its because they are lazy and don't like looking up but mainly because they think its cool for some reason....

You can walk back a couple of meters to remove the slack

Out of interest, how do you use the ohm indoors? In place of the draw on the first bolt? Are the walls you use of with it? We have one and it's great for sport but have never actually used it indoors.

You clip it to the first bolt and use it instead of the draw.  If the bolt is too small (as a few are), you can clip it to the maillon at the top of the quickdraw instead, though it doesn't sit quite as nicely then.  Some walls seem to prefer you doing that.

Big Rock are quite enthusiastic about them, they were offering trials at one point and sell them themselves (or did), probably because of the big safety gain they offer with unbalanced climbers.  I've used it occasionally at other walls (can't specifically recall which) and not been told off for it, the most I get is a floor walker looking quizically at why there's a massive 6'+ rugby player sized bloke half way up the wall and a 5 foot something skinny bloke holding the other end of the rope (which is how it mostly is) with no weight bag, but on noticing the device they tend to wander off without saying anything.

It's awkward for top rope because the rope has to then run up the wall and can get in the way of holds, for lead it's great, so I tend to lead everything these days, having its own benefits of course (in making me a bit less of a wuss ).

Cheers, will have to give it a whirl. It really is an impressive piece of kit.

As I said, done wonders for my confidence on lead.  Just a shame it isn't really viable to use it for trad.