UKC

Whilst climbing with a friend indoors last night he confirmed my thoughts that he is not a watchful belayer because every time I looked down whilst I was leading a route he was stood looking elsewhere. He uses a gri gri. I've got little experience with this device as I'm happy with an ATC and I'm a bit of stickler for change. I asked him if it locks off by itself and he said yes. I'm still not happy however when I look down and most of the time he's miles away, not looking at me.  I was going to mention this to him but I suspect that he wouldn't take it very well... In his defence he does hold the live end of the rope ( not my end )

Has anybody got any thoughts about this or similar experience of this?

Belayers come in several different breeds and, autolocking device or not, most people will be familiar with the belayer who looks distracted or unengaged.

These sorts come in two flavours:

- Those that go from casual posture to competent catch with the speed and grace of a cat every time.

- Those that are caught out and present a real hazard to themselves and the climber.

I know both sorts - I refuse to climb with the second sort and so should you. An additional thing to note is that it is possible to look casual and have good positioning and be ready and that a lot of competent belayers listen rather than look all the time and adjust their alertness dynamically according to circumstance.

I use autolocking devices, I don't use them to back me up (in case I forget to hold on) but to make it easier to belay someone when they are working a route - if your belayer needs an autolocker because they might drop you otherwise, find a new belayer!

This is great..... 8/10, but let's play...

Are you suggesting his 'distracted' belaying is because he's using a grigri?  How the hell are we to know!

Have you considered he might be equally distracted if he was using an ATC and an even greater risk?

For all we know, sitting behind our screens it might be that you are a really, really slow climber and he is understandably bored out of his brain waiting for you to finish.....

In the interest of balance, what do we know about your belaying? Not much,  for all we know it could be worse than his. We really need evidence of your belaying ability before we can progress the inquest in a balanced way.

I look forward to other contributions.....  

Mild pedanticism*: that's the dead end. The live end is the end you're tied to.

I agree with the reply above - looking distracted isn't necessarily the sign of a bad belayer, and if they're otherwise discharging their belaying duties competently (slack appears when you need it, the rope is taken in as you climb on toprope, etc) I wouldn't be worried. If they're not, then I wouldn't climb with them regardless of what belay devie they were using.

* - yes, pedanticism is actually a word

The Grigri is not an autolocking device, it is an assisted braking belay device. Due care and attention is needed by the belayer as if belaying with a non-assisted braking device (ATC or other).

I'd say trust in your belayer/climbing partner is paramount, especially once you get outside. Either have a word with him and ask him to be more attentive (and explain how and why) or find a better belayer.

Sounds like he's unlikely to drop you (providing hes using the grigri right), but still not great. 

As always, communication is key with these things. You want a belayer who you are confident is going to catch you, plus its good to visually and manual check each others tying in and threading of belay device before you start climbing. Takes two seconds, but could save you a broken leg. 

At the end of the day it matters not a jot what we say... If you are uncomfortable with the issue you either address it with him or change partners. It will stifle any "go for it" you have if not addressed.

I assume he holds you ok when you fall?

Were you wearing lycra?

One of the benefits of wearing belay glasses is that it encourages the belayer to focus attention on the leader. Perhaps you could suggest he try a pair.

Al

Ask him to use an ATC/Bug or similar and see if he pays attention then.  I know a couple of people who are very lazy because they use a gri-gri, and certainly aren't paying full attention to their climber, because they belay safe in the knowledge that "the gri-gri will catch them".  I don't accept belays from these people.

Many thanks to the majority of you for your well considered replies.

Mild pedanticism*: that's the dead end. The live end is the end you're tied to.

I take that on board, you're quite right.

I assume he holds you ok when you fall?

He has held me but only after I've shouted: Watch me! or: I'm off!

Next time, after leading a few routes I'm going to try and have a chat with him about it as... "after looking down I've noticed that.... and I'm worried ...." because as one of you has stated, it's not an autolocking device.  If he doesn't agree with me then I think I'm going to just say, sorry mate but I'm going to go on the auto belay.

Cheers

Does that mean that he's dropped you when you haven't shouted, or merely that you feel you need to shout before you come off?

It's a problem either way though; if you don't have confidence in your belayer then you're not going to be able to climb with confidence, period. If he's taking in and paying out appropriately, you're not being short-changed with rope or climbing with a loop of slack hanging down, and he's hold the dead rope locked off by default he's probably doing his job just fine. But it's a psychological thing and part of the job of belaying is to know how to help your mate on the other end of the rope mentally, whether that be shouting encouragement at the right times, knowing to keep quiet, or even just being reassuringly attentive.

I haven't ever given him the chance I don't think!

As for taking in and paying out/ shouting encouragement or not, I'm going to have to refrain from comment as I'm at risk of opening another can of worms. The replies so far have largely confirmed my beliefs and I feel justified in my thoughts on this.

I completely agree with you about it being a psychological thing, especially when it comes to being reassuringly attentive. Cheers.

Don't do yourself down. It's not mild pedanticism (correct usage, well done), to point out a fundamental and lethal mistake.

Something doesn't tally here. If he is not watching you how does he know when to pay out the rope? 

Perhaps he just waits until the rope from the gri gri to the climber lifts off the floor and then pays out more! Unfortunately, I have seen that type of belaying recently.
 

The same way that you do when you are climbing outdoors and the climber isn't in sight?

I'd rather have an inattentive belayer with a grigri  than a stich plate ... 

I'd guess you're not prone to falling off much. The more you represent an unpredictable human wrecking ball, the more attention a belayer tends to pay in the longer term. If you never fall off, then the belayer is redundant, and so can carry on that chat without significant issue?

If they're genuinely rubbish, then find some new friends or get diplomatic. I'm not very good with diplomacy, especially if someone doesn't give enough slack when clipping at a crux.  (And is probably a better measure of attention being paid than what they appear to be doing from a distance above). Now lack of slack, that really grinds my cogs! Far more concerning to me than what happens to a gri gri wearing inattentive belayer when I take a reasonable fall which catapults them into the wall/ first clip because they weren't paying attention.

Its indoors after all, there'll be clips from 6ft and then every 2.5ft thereafter. That belayer is going to have to be trying really hard to get you to hit the floor (and miss them in the process) through looking at/ chatting to the fitty/wad on the next route instead of their climber.

Of course confidence in your belayer is all important. Youll only really get that confidence by falling off repeatedly and accumulating positive affirmation through real experience.

Equally if they are rubbish, and nearly kill you/ themselves when you fall off lots. Then they'll be looking for new friends too.

I think I'm fresh out of sympathy today, pinch of salt and smile.. K

You've obviously never used a grigri.

Pick an overhanging wall, clip the first couple of draws, then fall unannounced, above his head. He'll pay much more attention in future

Disclaimer: this strategy is sold on a totally non-advised basis, with no guarantee of safety offered or implied. Any injuries sustained are the sole responsibility of the climbing team.

I don't buy that in the slightest. When your outdoors and the climber isn't in sight you pay extra attention to the rope that you can see and pay out accordingly. At least I do, I can't say for anyone else. 

I always take the view that anyone can make a mistake, or be the victim of circumstance. In other words, while unlikely it's possible that I could be dropped even by a skillful and attentive belayer. So I tend to prefer a belayer with an assisted locking device when I'll be falling off a lot.

Unless I've missed something the calim was that he wasn;t looking at the climber rather than he wasn't looking at the rope or that he was not paying the rope out in a satisfactory manner?

I would tend to keep a really close watch on the climber if they were climbing at their limit, but in this case the fact that they have time to study their belayers  actions suggests that they have quite a bit in hand.

Okay I suppose the op's words "every time I look down he is looking elsewhere" could mean that he is looking at the rope but I doubt the op would have a problem if that was the case. 

Just because he's not looking up at you doesn't necessarily mean he's not paying attention. Some climbers won't look up when belaying because they want to try to onsight the route afterwards and so don't want to watch someone else climb the route first.

But generally I think it's preferable if you've got someone watching you the whole time, particularly on the lower section of climbs where hitting the ground is a real possibility when pulling up rope to clip. How is he at feeding out rope when clipping? If he's persistently not giving you enough slack then that's certainly a reason to say something. How is he at holding falls? Again if he messes up you've got a good reason to say something.

Having belay specs might also help to some degree.  Constantly looking up whilst belaying is literally a pain in the neck.

In terms of Grigris yes they're really safe. It would still lock up even if the belayer is unconscious on the floor. However it is still possible to mess up. Ashima Shirachi was dropped by her Dad using a Grigri.

I'd say that it is probably a symptom of a deeper concern.

I certainly have people that I trust implicitly to belay me safely even when I know that they are holding a conversation with someone else.

Is it just me that mostly belays by feel? If my belayer had to look at the rope in order to work out whether to take in or not, then I'd be quite concerned.

That's not to say I don't look at the climber / rope - it's all important feedback -  just that I don't feel the need to continuously watch them like a hawk every second. I also want to be aware of my surroundings.

Whilst not looking isn't ideal, I'd be more interested in how they held the gri-gri.  If they have a hand properly holding on the dead rope and not touching the device at all there is no way they are going to drop you with a grigri. 

Paying out is a potential problem and that is where ideally they would be paying attention and using the device as per instructions.  If they are not paying attention and they have a hand clasped around the device then be nervous...

Why not have a read about how to use the device and start belaying with one, it might make you understand how it works.  If in doubt have the wall floor staff give you a lesson in its use.  

I would have thought that this approach would pretty much guarantee regular short-roping of the climber (something that really bugs me when leading), especially if they are using a gri gri.

That will really pss off someone you're belaying if they want to climb fast on a sport route. Going to make a quick clip when you're struggling to stay on and being met by resistance is bad news. Furthermore, if you're using a grigri it will likely lock up. You need to be watching someone in this context to anticipate when they'll need slack, not reacting after they start pulling up slack for a clip. Of course in other situations using what you describe as feel may be appropriate. 

Fair enough. I never use a gri gri (personal choice, as I don't do that much sport climbing) so don't have that problem. With an ATC style device, assuming you're paying attention, you can anticipate and pay out slack quickly enough that the climber isn't short-roped. That said, neither of us are really sport climbers and don't tend to race up routes.

Perhaps I'm underestimating how much of that is based on looking and how much is based on vision ("mostly by feel" was something of an overstatement).

I was really just surprised that people seemed to be relying on watching the rope when the climber is out of sight. In that situation, for me at least, tactile feedback from the rope is more useful tahn visual. YMMV.