UKC

The lunatics have taken over the asylum, well a bunch of left wing hippies have taken over the Castle climbing centre (North London). I'm all for a bit of eco and reducing waste and less churn but it's getting all a bit too wacko there. You get a bunch of enthusiastic hippies with a little knowledge and a lot of misinformation (don't believe half the stuff pumped out but green groups and nothing vegans and vegetarian groups say) and the next thing is they have converted it to a hippie green commune. They have even started a vegetable patch in the grounds. And are trying to make the cafe vegetarian - vegetarian isn't greener (paddy fields produce more methane than cows). Guess it's just a matter of time before they ban climbing to make way for an internal greenhouse. Peace & love man!

In reply to Sarah Williams:

And youve just registered today and posted to say this?

In reply to David Hooper: Yep. Thought I'd start off with something more akin to a 6a debate rather than a 4a. Do you go there?

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Good use of key phrases/ words there-
left wing hippies
lunatics
vegans greens
4/10

In reply to Sarah Williams:

currently it's more of a brain fart than a debate. What's your point exactly?

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Why not climb there and then go to Brownswood for beer and pig snacks. Say hello to Billy for me if you do.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Glad i'm not the only one who thought this. Completely agree.

In reply to Sarah Williams: I'm sorry, did any of this interfere with the climbing? It is their business and they can run it in a way that they feel comfortable with. As long as it doesn't get in the way of their base product I can't see the issue.

In reply to Sarah Williams: Very good, but your post has no information in it apart from the fact that they are growing some vegetables. Does "trying to make the cafe vegetarian" mean that they are banning meat products, or are they simply introducing a reasonable selection of veggie food.
Why not list the things you dislike, then provide alternative answers and we can have a debate. I know that reasoned dabates are not the sort of thing that often happen on here, but we can try. One or two hippies I know are pretty right wing, so you can't judge a book by its cover etc etc etc

In reply to kohsamed:
A lot of climbers do at the Castle. Just because we like the outdoors doesn't mean we are Swampy's.
One problem I have is that a lot of things people do in the name of saving the planet have little effect yet some greens think they are God's gift to saving the planet because they have made a few token actions and demand others follow. I had an argument with one who insisted I gave up meat to save the planet. Utter bollocks, paddy fields produce more methane, science fact. One small step maybe but while we turn down the heating (another thing the Castle has done) politicians and big industry carry on regardless. Copenhagen was a joke.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

are you Nick Griffin in disguise or just David Cameron? I suggets you just enjoy the climbing.....

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Are you smoking what they are growing or was it in the cakes?

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Troll, surely......

I find the 'greeny' signs posted everywhere highly irritating. They do like giving themselves a pat on that back that is for sure.

I don't want to read about your rationale for buying a Dyson hand dryer, i just want to dry my hands, thanks.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Not sure what your argument is about? The Castle? Copnehagen? Eating Rice?

Can't see how growing veg, really impacts on the climbing?
It did occur to me that the proliferation of printed materials everywhere in there does seem to conflict somewhat with their sustainability drive, but of course this is offset against the need to educate people about it.

As for the cafe, do you really need to eat meat in the middle of a climbing session? surely a flapjack will suffice?

In reply to galpinos:

Well if it is a troll, then Sarah, if that indeed is his real name, has replied twice, which is very much pushing the boundaries of acceptable trolling behaviour methinks.
Sarah. Leave it.

In reply to Sarah Williams: Sarah, Audrey is a very nice and approachable person and I would say not a Hippy if you have any concerns I suspect that they would best be put to her first, before the public criticism of their vegetable policy. I congratulate the Castle for taking steps to address their Carbon footprint every bit helps.

In reply to willworkforfoodjnr: I thought you weren't a hippy?

In reply to just:

Agree 100%

I am sure that the castle management, if approached directly, would take the time to explain the rationale behind their environmental policy and engage in any debate if indeed the OP wished to have one.

Personally I think it's good that there are businesses out there which are willing to invest a lot into making themselves more sustainable especially where those decisions are not going to be universally popular.

In reply to Sarah Williams: I asked you to list the problems as you see them and then say what you would do differently/better. Given the tone of your post I thought that would be a simple enough job, but you are still ranting. Make some factual statements instead of banging on about paddy fields producing more methane (than what, you don't say)!!

I just dont see how their 'green movement' and indoor climbing are related, frankly. I see the castle as nothing more than a sports venue, not somewhere where i go to be enlighted on matters of politics or the environment.

If they want to grow vegetables, reduce waste etc then go for it, just dont preach about it to me with self-congratulatory notices everywhere.

In reply to Sarah Williams:
Well done to the Castle !!!!

P.S. Veggies don't just eat rice, and there's more to the issue than methane, but I guessing you won't let a balanced argument get in the way of your rant

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Sarah

Dear Sir

In the unlikely event of you NOT being a troll. Try reading Yvon Choinards (of Yosemite, Ice climbing, Black Diamond and Patagonia fame)book "Let My People Surf" about how business can make an environmental stand and indeed how "greening" your business can make it even more effective and profitable.

Re the environment - because our leaders have failed us at Copenhagen, surely that make3s it even more imperative that we do all the little things that we can do as individuals to help - these arent just empty gestures.

Re the Castle - not climbed there since the 90's but I like the idea of the educational posters (a la CAT?) as long as it isnt "Holier than thou" also the fact that they are growing food on site is a good thing - you are getting locally produced, zero airmiled fresh (presumably) organic snacks during your climbing, rather than some stale, chemically enhanced and preserved, airmiled and carbon footprinted pap from Asda.

If you aint part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Anyway - wassted enough time on a troll - off to play in the snow

Love and light

David

In reply to kohsamed:

They are linked because the people who run The Castle happen to care enough about the environment to make being green part of their daily life. You may not care, they do. It doesn't impact the sporting use of the venue, does it?

Who's preaching? Or self-congratulatory? Those signs are there to explain the rationale behind the decisions they're making, and as such they are at worst explanatory, and at best, educational. What's not to like?

I applaud The Castle for taking the stance they have, and more power to them.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

I was there yesterday. The café had a notice explaining that they'd temporarily run out of ham and bacon and apologising. Is this what you mean by "going vegetarian"?

In reply to sarahlizzy:

Now now, let's not have any common sense and facts getting in the way of one of the best threads I've seen in a while!

In reply to Masood:

Have you noticed that the courses recommended by the Castle for outdoor climbing are in Spain with the assumption that people will fly there "pick-up at the airport (normally Barcelona" ?

I believe flying to be very poor from an environmental point of view and would be interested to know how that fits in with the rest of their green messaging.

In reply to Slarti B:

Good point, don't they have incentives for their staff not to fly?

I'm sure they're well aware of this apparent conflict. Maybe they should run coachloads of climbers to Devon/Cornwall instead - far preferable to some I'm sure.

In reply to Queequeg:

I understand that the top executives at The Castle use a helicopter to nip out to McDonalds at lunchtime. It's disgraceful.

In reply to Slarti B:

Yes, I've noticed that. Perhaps, as well as being green, they are being realistic in realising that people will go overseas, particularly to climb sport. I don't believe they advocate wearing hair shirts, either ;oP

Reducing one's carbon footprint is not the same as eliminating it!

In reply to Sarah Williams:

i love it when people finish sentences with "science fact" or similar, it really shows what kind of person you're dealing with... the term "reactionary Muppet" springs to mind.

In reply to Sarah Williams: The castle have a rice paddy? Impressive!

I am told that when you complete the boulder Ladder, you can hit a puppy with a hammer as a special treat.

In reply to Masood:

Exactly, until their customers change their attitudes, well the Castle has to satisfy its market doesn't it. It's a business after all, but at least a business that's striving to reduce emissions where possible. Good on them.

In reply to Masood:
>they are being realistic in realising that people will go overseas, particularly to climb sport.

On the web site they are recommending Spain as the best place to transition to outdoors climbing and do not mention other destinations or any UK based courses.

Indeed, but I would be more sympathetic to your argument if they proposed greener destinations first (eg Southern Sandstone, Peak District, Portland for sport), or at least gave people other options, but they don't. Or even if they pointed out the environmental implications of their recommendations.

>I don't believe they advocate wearing hair shirts, either ;oP
Well they do make lot of noise about their green policy and to me it comes across as being rather preachy, smug and sanctimonious. My cynical side says that it is as much a commercial ploy as a real green policy, I would be happier and would rewspect them more if they were consistent with their message

In reply to Sarah Williams:


However, you can feed more people with a paddy field than a cow, so in an overpopulated (possibly the root of the problem) world......


So I blame the Pope, the Illuminati & the Majesterium, not necessarily in that order

In reply to Dom Whillans:


"Paedophiles have genetically more in common with crabs than they do with you or me. Now that's scientific fact... there's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact." Dr Fox (and he's a Dr, so he must be clever!)

In reply to Anglesey Pete: The castles environmental policy makes me thing the management having been doing a bit too much Cake recently

In reply to kohsamed: Very good! But cake isn't green, it's lentil flapjack with carob!

In reply to Anglesey Pete:

As an aside I don't actually think the original 'science fact' is anywhere near correct in any possible interpretation. A quick google reveals that paddy fields produce an estimated 50 to 100 million tonnes per year whereas farm animals (incl. sheep and goats) produce a whopping 900 BILLION tonnes.

In reply to Masood:

But I thought sports climbing "stunts your emotional and intellectual growth, makes you go blind and grow hair on your palms"

Why would they want to recommend that?

In reply to Sarah Williams:

On the up side they seem to have decided to slash their heating as part of the green campaign. Conditions are now good in there (down jackets even coming out!) and you can hang slopers for the first time in years. Hopefully the cold will cut some crowds too. I Munro should be very pleased to hear this.

In reply to catt:

In reply to catt:

but a reduction the number of hotties in crop tops!!

In reply to John Rushby:

MTFU and wear your crop top with pride.

In reply to catt:

As part of their green (when it suits?) campaign or just cost cutting?

In reply to John Rushby:

Just drink more and the number of hotties increases again.

In reply to Sarah Williams:
Did anyone try the vegan buffet after the bouldering comp recently?
Out of this world tasty!
G

In reply to John Rushby:
Love your work. More, please.

In reply to gribble:

"Now now, let's not have any common sense and facts getting in the way of one of the best threads I've seen in a while!"

I'm sorry, I'll try not to let it happen again

In reply to garylloyd:

sounds delicious

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Thinking about this, The Castle seems popular partly because of its unique atmosphere, which their eco stance is very much part of. If it's not your thing then why not check out The Westway or another London wall? The city is particularly blessed in having a large choice available.

In reply to Sarah Williams:
oh my god. an army of hippies has taken over the castle? did nobody down there put up a fight to stop the place being turned into a vegetable patch?

when you southerners have no climbing centre left & realize you hate gardening you'll wish you'd listened to sarah instead of appeasing the hippies in the hope they'd leave you with a single, solatary bouldering panel.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

They'll be practising free love and peace next, the bastards.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

To apply some ying to the hippy yang, simply stand outside Manor House station until one of the feral hoodies comes up and stabs you for the price of a bottle of White Lightning.

You can then spend the next week in hospital, sans spleen, on Ebay bidding for the rock boots nicked from your prone body claret spattered body.

In reply to martin heywood:

Free love? Blimey, there I was thinking that the free evening "Sessions" they advertise were for those without a CLIMBING partner!

In reply to Gone:

Get a grip.
I'm not even taking my boots (but might find a use for the harness)
Be there or be square.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

>"The lunatics have taken over the asylum, well a bunch of left wing hippies have taken over the Castle climbing centre (North London)."

Personally I'm in favour of any moves to reduce prices and increase sustainability. The proposal to allow homeless people to bed down overnight on the boulder mats sounds like a really good idea to me, especially if the Hackney Borough Council cough up the grant. In fact I may choose to live there myself!

In reply to Sarah Williams: "paddy fields produce more methane",

I've never heard this before please explain about this science fact.

In reply to Cliff Hanger:



Didn't you know?
They are literally time bombs waiting to go off and take most of the Northern Hemisphere with them.

In reply to JLS:

im sat here wondering if that is a joke

In reply to Cliff Hanger:

smacks of a neo-con tactic to shift global warming blame from cattle-eating western culture (of which i am most definitely guilty) to rice-eating 3rd world and Chinese cultures

In reply to Cliff Hanger:

Apparently they are a recognised significant methane source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_field

Strange but true.

Learn something every day.

In reply to John Rushby:
How I've missed climbing with you in your little crop top and hot pants! Hope life is good?

In reply to Dom Whillans: Well I'm trying not to pre judge the answer. Sarah mentioned it twice as if its something we should all know, but its a new one on me. I'd always believed the veggie propagandists that if we slaughtered all the cows and sheep we'd all be a lot better off due to a lack of methane and fallow land. But if its true that paddy fields are the main culprit whats a boy to think!

In reply to Cliff Hanger:

It's not very significant in the big scheme of things.

In reply to Sarah Williams:


I'm sure you've taken all the factors into consideration there, such as the deforestation to produce fodder crops for cattle (and other meat animals), plus the transportation of those crops to western europe and the USA, and the refrigeration needed for meat products whilst the meat is transported, plus freezing meat products, plus home refrigeration needed for meat products, and things like that.

Rice is dried, and transported - doesn't need to be kept cool. Doesn't require extra crops growing to bulk it up, or visits from vets (and vaccines and innoculations - all require a sophisticated industrial society to produce).

Try thinking through what it takes to produce a kilo of meat, and a kilo of rice and then if you really think that meat is more environmentally friendly, then post your reasoning.

||-)

In reply to Sarah Williams: According to the United Nations, livestock farming is responsible for more greenhouse gas than the whole of transport put together. One of the main factors is that you have to cut down trees to grow grass to feed the livestock. If the trees were still there (or reinstated) they would be removing carbon dioxide. Of course, you can feed people with plants using a fraction of the land. Unfortunately, if you can feed more people, there will be more people, and they will all want warm houses, cars and air flights. Vegans also live (and pollute) longer than the general population. There are no easy answers here!

In reply to GeoffF:

Eat a hippy?

In reply to Dominion:

The real problem here is the kenyan green beans and chilean blueberries!

Why can't we buy green beans from Kent.

The best apples come from Kent not far away places...science fact

In reply to arctickev: The problem is that if you want to grow all year round fruit and veg in Kent, you have to grow it under glass, and the resulting CO2 emissions are more than those from growing them in a more suitable location and shipping them.

In reply to arctickev:

The problem is that "when I were a kid", we used to exist - to a large degree - on seasonal fruit and veg. Now we want srawberries all year round, and apples, oranges, tomatoes, kiwi fruit, peas, new potoatoes, runner beans, mushrooms etc etc etc ad infinitum.

And it has to be fresh.

And that is what our supermarkets offer us.

And a lot of people will not even be aware of what fruit and veg is in season, because in their short life, it's always been available at every time of the year.

There is no easy return to the old patterns - there may be a hard return though, if fuel prices drive transportation costs through the roof...

In reply to GeoffF:


That's because they should be using their waste vegetable produce in digesters to produce heat, and also store the methane gas that the vegetable waste produces as it composts down to use to heat the greenhouses in the winter. Also have wind turbines on the site, and solar panels. But they don't. Yet.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

I like the seasonal veg and fruit, but it does seem hard to buy UK fruit and veg even in season (from supermarkets at least).

We'd be willing to stick to UK produced products where possible but the bulk buying supermarkets don't seem to like this.

Kev

In reply to Sarah Williams:

"In the unlikely event of you NOT being a troll." I am just wondering, if this person is a troll does this mean all discussion in this thread has to stop?

In reply to rm118:

That's a good point. Actually trolls can be useful and the debate can evolve to be very constructive, far removed from the original rant.

In reply to rm118:


No, there are discussion points, and opportunities for abuse, arguments, vilification, pontification, and humour.

None of which are reliant on the OP being genuine. That can be a total irrelevance.

||-)

In reply to Sarah Williams: when I started climbing there a little over two years ago they were not nearly at the eco hippie level as they are now.

In reply to catt:

Don't know if I have just been looking in the wrong places but I can't find the decent sloper problems of late? There were 3 up in the top feature wall
a few months back but I didn't see anything lately?

I am sure that it doesn't escape everyone's attention that the owner(s) are 'driven' to be green. This generally causes people to turn their noses up (and go back to their tv dinners) or actually start to think and act. Given the state of the planet and the reality of what we could be facing I think it's admirable if a little heavy handed.

I think what they are doing is brilliant and a great example. But I do wish they would get rid of the vegetable patch because I just cannot get this V5 on the panels, problem 16 on the boulder ladder or anything above V2 in the Catacomb. Surely the patch is to blame!

In reply to martin heywood:

Not been there for a while but the last few times I visited there was a significant minority of people who seemed to spend 90% of their time either doing "warm up" yoga at the bottom of the stairs, or "warm down" yoga at the same place. Not sure if they took their boots, either.

In reply to tommyzero:

Vegetable patch? Is this like a nicotine patch? Slap it on your arm and it slowly releases your "5 a day" into the bloodstream? I want one!!!

In reply to John Rushby:

I wouldn't know about that, but if i get past problem 7 that usually calls for a small celebration in the brownswood and some delicious crack grolsch!

In reply to Rob Naylor: V5 a day?

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Lets face it, as a climber who climbs outside based in central London, ones 'green' credentials are pretty dodgy to start with. A few tofu burgers aren't going to change the fact that its a transport hungry hobby and which causes environmental damage to delicate environments.

In reply to ChrisJD:

'fess up- You just added that fact to the wiki page, didn't you!

In reply to Sarah Williams:

i went there on sat with a mate who had come down from the north, who used to be a regular climber there. needless to say he was ranting about us being 'southern fairies' with only our poncy vegetarian food on offer. i had to agree, its happening more and more each week! beans and cous cous for 4quid was the only 'proper' food on offer. bloody joke if you ask me

In reply to Sarah Williams:
I used to work for the company that did the original heating etc at the castle and about this time last year we were interviewed by the Castle's owner with a view to helping make the centre an example of what could be done by a group of committed people.

If you think about it, what they're doing is showcasing a lot of things that help a building reduce its overall impact on the environment: water conservation, recycling of materials, composting of food waste, reduction energy consumption.

The Castle has a huge captive audience of generaly like minded people (we all love being outside no?) and thus have a brilliant oportunity to high light what is possible. We don't have to copy exactly what they're doing, but it shows us a few things we can do at home which will help.

I was gutted we didn't get the job personally... go to a meeting, have a climb afterwards - winner!

In reply to adderz: Haha, the poncy food at London walls is pretty daft. I frequent the Westway because it's far better situated for me but they have smoothies for £4.00 and cous cous salads and such. It's a world away from a good cup of tea and a plate of chips at the foundry! That said, as a peniless student, I take my own food to the Westway anyway.

I think climbing in London has a significant "lifestyle" user base, people who wear Prana and Arcteryx and can't get enough of their wheatgrass smoothies. I'm sure the enviromentalism appeals to their sensiblities also. My only opinion on the Castle is that it's too damn expensive.

In reply to AlistairB:

Seems a lot of climbers don't have jobs or spend more time on the forums than on the job. Never imagined we'd start up such a debate. Great stuff, love a good debate. Nice to know we don't all think the same. Look out for my next forum topic. Meanwhile I'm off to make some carrot cake with healthy Total Greek Yogurt & organic nuts topping to go with my tofu steaks.

In reply to Sarah Williams:


Now you've started you will soon be drawn in...

In reply to Sarah Williams:

You sound like f*cking idiot! I'm not sure what kind of response you expected from this post.

In reply to Sarah Williams:


won't that be fun.

In reply to kendogcatchy:



Er no - not necessarily. The reason a lot of people go to the Castle to climb is because its indoors.

In reply to Sarah Williams:
nice rant...what a cry baby
"vegetarian isn't greener (paddy fields produce more methane than cows)"
-great argument there, haha

In reply to kendogcatchy:
Good post. Glad someone has some sense and understanding.

In reply to royal:


And a great username

In reply to Sarah Williams:

I respect Castle for the initiative. I can't say the same about you undermining what they trying to do.

as said before "If you aint part of the solution, you are part of the problem"

In reply to Sarah Williams: If they pass the savings on their water bills, energy bills and food costs onto the customers then I support them whole heartedly, but I have a feeling that they won`t,it`s just a way of making a bigger profit, which seems totally acceptable in todays society if you dress it up in GREEN. Just the opinion of a very sceptical person....

In reply to Murphoir: If they are still providing you with the same service, i.e a climbing wall, why should they charge less? Do you expect cheaper food in colder restaurants?

This initiative is about making the wall more sustainable, not cutting costs and I applaud them for it and hame more walls (and businesses) follow suite, Up with the green hippy vegan liberals!

In reply to Sarah Williams:

In my mind, anything that keeps me from having to stand on street corners selling my body and its various cavities has to be a good thing!

In reply to TimS: I don`t and won`t climb there, they are far too expensive for the likes of me. I would have to drive there(approx 1 hr even though I only live 25 miles away) struggle to find somewhere to park and probably end up risking getting a ticket. For 11+ quid a trip, me and my friends are better off chipping in, filling up the car and then driving to the Peak, Lakes, Portland, Swanage, Wye valley, etc etc. The routes are much better (water and wind being the best route setter unquestionably), the people are usually friendlier when they are outside(don`t ask me why but I have personally found this) and you are actually rock climbing rather than plastic pulling. You can keep your overpriced, politically correct Castle, I won`t be going there again which is a good thing for you as it is far too busy anyway( maybe thats why the price keeps going up).

In reply to Murphoir: I haven't climbed there, I live in Leeds, but I applaud their environmental policy and if I lived in London I'd be more likely to climb there because of it.

Must be nice being able to jump in your car with your friends after work and head to "Peak, Lakes, Portland, Swanage, Wye valley, etc etc." rather than climbing on the plastic, especially in our ever reliable British climate!

In reply to TimS: And no I wouldn`t expect cheaper food in a cold restaurant as I wouldn`t eat there, customer is king and all that. Anyway an indoor climbing wall is the McDonalds of the climbing world,a quickfix and a poor excuse for a real meal, especially when you can get a Michelin star restaurant in Sheffield for the same money( free if you live nearby) if you put in a little more time and effort.

In reply to TimS: If they are still providing you with the same service, i.e a climbing wall, why should they charge less? Do you expect cheaper food in colder restaurants?

Yes, if it is so cold that my fingers go numb after half a long boulder problem.

In reply to TimS: 11 quid a pop, a tenner in petrol and nowhere to park, I think i`ll just pop there for an hour after work.

In reply to Murphoir: You could pop there for a few hours instead, value for money and all that... You never know you may even improve your climbing level too!

As you professed to not being a customer in the first place you can't be the king eh?

I fail to see how the climbing near Sheffield is of any use to you on a cold damp night in London, it's not even of any use to the people who live in Sheffield at the moment!

In reply to TimS: 20+ quid for a few hours is still far too expensive for me, and your`e right I will never be king of the castle as I`m not rich enough(nor would I want to be), I`ll take my custom elsewhere. There is always something in condition to climb in the Peak if you know where to look, but yes, you are limited and I wouldn`t pop up there for a few hours . If I get the urge to pull one off on plastic I can use 3 indoor climbing walls which are a lot quieter than the castle, 2 of them about a fiver and the other under a fiver, you can always park no problem and it takes less than 10 minutes to get to any one of them, now thats value for money.....

In reply to Murphoir:

If that's the case, then why are you ranting about the Castle?

In reply to ClimberEd: Read the above posts...

In reply to Murphoir: I too am a little lost why you have a bee in your helmet about the Castle... do they not provide better facilities for the increased cost? which other walls are you talking about? Obviously not the Arch or Westway or Craggys as one has next to 0 parking and the others are certainly more than a fiver. Such a modern facility as Crystal Palace perhaps? If this is what you want out of climbing walls no wonder The Castle doesn't appeal.

I'm well aware of the 'perma dry' venues int peak, most of them are under a lot of snow right now.

In reply to Hannes:

That only means conditions are right in there.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Well, as a previous poster has suggested, climb somewhere else if you don't like the Castle's stance. You don't go to bars where you don't like the music, do you?

I still find it mystifying that people who say they love outdoor sports (granted, you and others who agree with you haven't said this, mere assumption on my part; perhaps you only climb indoors) have no appreciation for the environment surrounding them, seeing it only as a playground in which they can do as they please.

The Castle's only trying to raise awareness that our actions do have consequences, and every little change helps. Seems like they have a long way to go.

By the way, I think it's a great post, even if I don't agree with you. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same.

Cheers, Helen

In reply to TimS: My rant is that I don`t need preaching to about climate change or any other environmental issue from a climbing wall, I go there for escapism and to totally focus on much more `important` things than reality, like climbing. I am totally aware of all the green issues and don`t need them shoved in my faced at every oppurtunity by someone who has jumped on the band wagon with everyone else. Everyones willing to be green when their profits increase but I wonder if they would do all the green stuff if it cost them more money, I doubt it very much. Does no one give anonymously to charities any more, has everyone got to shout what good they`ve done from the rooftops and shove it down everyone elses throats. Next thing they`ll try to convert us to some religous cult for the greater good of man. Some people just don`t care, let alone care enough to justify paying that amount for a freezing cold climbing wall where you have to wait in line to get on a climb, no matter how good for the environment it is. So thats my rant, I hope you liked it, but thats all it is, a rant. I look forward to hearing your rants....

In reply to Murphoir:

How do you know they've just jumped on the bandwagon? Maybe they've been investigating different ways of doing things for a while and only recently worked out what they can do within their business model? It's something many businesses should be looking at.


That's your opinion, but it's not necessarily the view of those running the Castle. You don't know if their profits are being increased as a result of what they're doing. If the profits are going up, isn't that an indication that they've got their business model right?


Not sure what charities have got to with this particular issue. on the wider issue of evangelising about their activities, perhaps they're frustrated at the seeming lack of action on what they consider to be important, and are trying to demonstrate that it's possible to give a shit about the planet and still run a successful business.


Are you sure you're not just making things up now?


If people don't like it, they won't go, simple as that. Perhaps the fact that some people just don't care is the reason the Castle is trying to be active, rather than putting up with the same old apathetic shrug. Maybe they want to try to make a difference - is that such a bad thing?

In reply to Murphoir:

I'm just wondering where you live as I guess that at 25 miles from the Castle you must be on the hinterland of London, where I often work (e.g. Slough, MK) and often struggle to find decent walls. The three you mention sound good to me but I can't work out where you're talking about, I'm guessing one of them might be Amersham?

In reply to Murphoir: If you don't go to the Castle (which you don't) then you won't have 'all the green issues shoved in (your) face', so you don't have anything to rant about!

How would you know whether people were giving anonymously to charity or not? Surely that's the point of anonymity!

I hope you cheer up and have a nice weekend

In reply to tony: It must have taken them years to work out that turning the heating down will use less energy, and I`m pretty sure that if you raise your prices and cut your costs you will make a bigger profit. People always want other people to think exactly the same way as they do by forcing it on to others, thats why you`ve had wars for thousands of years between different so called peace loving religions, what happened to live and let live. The charity comment is to do with massaging ones ego, do you need to tell everyone about every selfless act that you do, are you that needy of a pat on the back, it`s not about increasing awareness as everyone knows (who cares) what they`re supposed to do. I feel like I`m slating people who are trying to be environmentally sound off, which I`m not, someones got to give a s**t, just don`t shove it in everyones faces, it`s preachy and it puts people off jumping on the wagon with them. Good rant though tony, and I look forward to your reply.... P.S. Tyler, my local walls are Watford Central (they`re openly lax on the amount of time you spend in there, so just pay for an hour), Hatfield, Brunel university and an outdoor one in Berkhampstead (can`t remember it`s name), but my friend has got a converted garage with some great problems in it, but bouldering is limited fun for me, I prefer longer routes.

In reply to TimS: Tim I feel that my posts have caused a bit of bad feeling between us, please don`t feel like that,it`s just a rant from the most cynical person I know, me. Peace to you man....

In reply to Sarah Williams:

in reply to the OP, i don't really see the point in this thread. the castle is a good indoor wall, i find the quality and range of style of problems is always very high.

they have good slabs, the mezz, etc etc and even that roof section new last year, which most walls don't have anything like. yes it is expensive, and yes indoor doesn't compare to outdoors, but if those are your problems then don't go.

but i don't think the odd 'green' poster here or there, or separate bins for different types of waste really takes anything out of your session. stop whining, go climbing.

In reply to Sarah Williams: money hungry green hippies...

In reply to Murphoir:

Not if turning the heating down means fewer customers. However, If their customers haven't been deserting them, they've managed to demonstrate that it's possible to do the right thing and keep a successful business going. That sounds like a good thing to me.


blah blah bollocks. Live and let live? That's what's got us in this bloody mess. It's takes a bit of action to change things.


I don't agree, I think there's a big need to demonstrate that it's possible top do the right thing and be profitable. There are far too many people who think it's an either/or situation - you can be environmentally sound but not make a profit, or you can only make a profit by disregarding the environmental impacts of your actions. What the Castle seems to be trying to do is show that it's not an either/or situation, that it is possible to reduce the impact on the environment while running a successful business. This kind of demonstration is important if we're to overcome a lot of the inertia which is preventing useful change.


Yes you are.


Just as well someone does, because you obviously don't.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

I enjoyed this post very funny.

Sarah W dont you yogurt knitting classes in the mongolian ger in the middle of the roundabout off the A1 ?

In reply to tony: I`ve just ended a debate with someone else, and I can`t be bothered to start another one with you. We must agree to disagree (live and let live). I`m not slating the greens just asking them to not be so self righteous and in your face about the whole issue cause it might put people off and it can seem very patronising at times. This is my last post on the issue, so please feel free to rip it to pieces. Peace to all men and women....love someone who doesn`t give a s**t aslong as it doesn`t happen in my lifetime....

In reply to Sarah Williams: You sound a bit Greeniephobic to me....I quite like the sound of the place and it's good to hear that green minded people are taking more control.

In reply to Murphoir:

That's a shame. You never actually engaged with any of the points I made, so you just come across as a bit of a reactionary.

In reply to lynx3555:

I Hope you are not including the Green Party in that statement

In reply to kohsamed: I voted for the Green Party twice....don't expect they'll get much power but I want more protection for wild animals and I want a healthier world for my kids.

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Wow this seems a bit of an extreme reaction. OK so the signs justifying the use of a Dyson handdrier are a bit over the top, but at least educational. I haven't read all 127 messages so may be repeating what others have to say also, but surely a vegetable patch has no detrimental impacts on the quality of the climbing? And surely it's a good thing to take steps towards producing local food and encouraging self sufficiency? We depend so highly on supermarkets for all our food... but anyway that's a tangent. As for a vegetarian cafe, if you really want to eat steak or bacon whilst climbing then bring your own, I know of very little climbing cafes that sell large quantities of meat anyway. The Arch cafe doesn't, Mile End neither, and the Westway very little. As for paddy fields, rice is hardly the staple diets of vegetarians (not mine anyway) and there are other factors to take into account in meat production (more energy output after input with vegetables, vegetables require less water and no food whereas animals do). Anyway the point is, the climbing is still bloody good at the Castle weather they're "green" or not, and it's about time people started having some principles anyway.

In reply to Mazza:

On the one hand I like vegetables, but on the other I also like meat.

Which ones best?

hmmm

Theres only one way to find out....

FIGHT!!!!

In reply to Mike Hunt:
well you can make vegetables look like meat, but not meat look like vegetables. is that a good argument? i don't know...

In reply to Sarah Williams: ha ha- i agreee- i really fancy a burger when climbing...

In reply to Sarah Williams:

Pretty good trolling this is. All the hall marks of a good troll.

1) Environmental debate to get the lefties going.
2) Insult someone/something a few people may know and therefore likely to get offended.
3) State things as scientific fact with no references or any sort of evidence.


Not bad, shame you got rumbled early on and had to reply!

In reply to Dom Whillans:

Couldn't agree more- if the troll could reference some peer reviewed studies comparing number of people fed to amount of methane produced (not to mention CO2, water vapour and all the other 'green house' gases out there), for both rice and beef production then I might begin to take them more seriously. For now i will just assume they read the Daily Wail and pity them.

In reply to Sarah Williams:
Totally agree. What I really don't like is that they haven't asked us if we agree with their ideas, they are just forcing them on us. The reason why I'm still climbing at the Castle is because it's the closest climbing wall for me.
Somebody also mentioned Climb Catalunya trips-I was very unhappy to find out that I had to eat vegan food for a week (without being told that in advance!). I think it's just unfair. I don't mind people being vegetarians/vegans, but I prefer to decide what to eat myself.

In reply to Lidac:


That would have ruined my holiday. thanks for the heads up was considering a week with them

In reply to kohsamed:
Wasn't vegan when I went - we even ate rabbit. Must be a recent development

In reply to Sarah Williams: everyone does seem very worked up about all of this thats for sure!

The paddy fields argument is interesting I'd never heard that one before, and for anyone who has referenced wiki for information then I wouldn't bother as anyone can write stuff on there - its not a certified reference.

Also anyone that climbs in the true sense, in my opinion at least, has climbed outdoors which probably involved a method of transport that involves burning some hydrocarbon and without those glourios long chain molecules it would make everything much more difficult. So unless were goingto all stop using them, which I very much doubt, the sooner or later I think were a bit buggered.

BTW I dont clib at the castle and never have so cant really comment on that stuff, but I don't think a veg patch is a bad idea for anyone - especially if you like veg!

In reply to Sarah Williams:

The people are more green because they spend more time outside, logical huh.

I suggest you take a bow and arrow and kill your own lunch!

In reply to John Rushby: Billy is a legend

In reply to Sarah Williams:

I have meat in the freezer that required the following: a drive of about 10 miles (each way) the burning of 6 grams of gunpowder. Some carbon to melt the lead and copper jacket of the bullets (2 off). Then we butchered it ourselves and we produced about 100 pounds of meat.

Now that's environmentaly sound. And free range.

If we all started to eat more game / wild food and seasonal veg the world would be much better off.

In reply to Sarah Williams: Whoa there - the most incredible part of this entire thread is that someone mentioned £11.00 per visit... and no one batted an eyelid.

11 squid thats like... well its lots. But I guess that if you get complimentary tofu...

Cheers
LD

In reply to Mr Eddie:
>

Copper mining. Lead mining. Support of the military industrial complex to fashion weapons

In reply to Lurking Dave:

The points you are missing are that

a) that price is pretty much the going rate for london walls
b) hence people tend to have monthly memberships or direct debits to walls in london which univerally makes things significantly cheaper. Hence the only people paying eleven quid are one-off visitors.
c) that also tends to make londoners quite partisan to their wall of choice, hence this thread I assume.

In reply to Mr Eddie:

are you serious? whilst your little country pursuit sounds fun, and your game delicious im sure, with a population of 60m+ our wildlife would be decimated if everyone decided they wanted to eat 'wild.

in reply to sarah williams
RE the posters: it's perfectly natural for those being told their not doing enough to resent being told that they're not doing enough..... it's not those who are telling you being smug or condesending that's the issue, it's your inability to accept that you personally in a contributive way are killing the world... we all are, accept it, get used to being told it.... maybe one day you may realise that the people who're telling you, do so through respect for the world which sustains us not through a desire to be better than you, grow up! "I'm all for a bit of eco and reducing waste and less churn but it's getting all a bit too wacko there" this is progress that you're witnessing, people thought darwin was a wacko.

RE the hippie commune: if you're diet really requires that you be in the close proximity with meat at all times then you're probably not much to look at eh? perhaps this would go further to explain the meaning of this thread..... who knows. By making the cafe veggie they've taken a step towards something they believe in if you don't believe it's a good step, and you really do need to shovel meat into your face at all times then don't climb there or.... here it comes (fanfare......) take some lunch from home.. crazy huh? locally produced vegetables are better for you and the environment....FACT if all cafes produced their own food we'd all eat fresher and less fuel would be burned in the name of a ham sandwich.
Paddy fields may well account for more methane than cows.... but they don't have a paddy field in the back they have a vegetable patch you moron!

have a nice day
sincerely
a meat eating man with a brain

In reply to Will Cox:

FACT if all cafes produced their own food there would be no land left to live on.

In reply to kohsamed:
ahh the infamous missing full stop, i do apologise that should have read,
"locally produced vegetables are better for you and the environment....FACT."
true our outrageously large population density would make it impossible to find space for all cafe's to have a plot....
but lots of cafe's have car parks right?
and there are lots of fat people who need to walk more and eat less meat....
wow i think i've just had an epiphany

In reply to Lidac:
What I really don't like is that they haven't asked us if we agree with their ideas, they are just forcing them on us." "I don't mind people being vegetarians/vegans, but I prefer to decide what to eat myself."

make some nice meaty non vegan food and take it with you

In reply
>
Bizarre viewpoint. Nobody is forcing her to buy the veggie food on offer, so why should they be forced to sell meaty food if they dont want to?

In reply to Sarah Williams:

We? Is that the Royal We or evidence of this being a troll?

Today I climbed at The castle.

When taking a break, I ordered and received a ham and cheese toastie from the cafe.

I trust this settles the matter?

In reply to sarahlizzy:

By the way, there's a fab new f6a lead route up the back of The Fang - much fun!

In reply to sarahlizzy: Last I was there I saw a big bowl of delicious looking bacon so I think we can agree it isn't veggie