UKC

There has been endless discussion on here as to why walls should open, why they shouldn't, what steps could be taken etc. 

It is clear that a significant cohort are desperate to return to their local resin dojo. 

Each step taken to tick a box (sorry, ensure covid safety) will carry a cost. Some are minor, hand sanitiser for example. Others are major, limiting numbers, actually cleaning, installing ventilation. 

Simplistically, if max occupancy is reduced to 1/3 of previous, entry costs have the potential to triple. 

What level of price increase will you tolerate to retain your local facility and how would you prefer to see it (cost increase, time limitation or other)? 

If you cried about entry prices in the past, keep your bear and blanket handy and stay away from me with all that mucus pouring from your orifices. Don't you know there is a pandemic on. 

A bit harsh. Climbing walls, like much of the rest of the country, are desperate to open if they can before they go bankrupt.  They will have to find a cost/entry price balance that allows them to do so.

Most activities we do, even as mundane as going to the supermarket, carry some risk.

As for walls, yes I would like the staff to retain their jobs and also for those customers for whom the wall is an important part of their life, whether exercise or social, to be able to continue. 

You say harsh, I say realistic. 

Costs will increase, this will eventually be passed on to the consumer. All efforts will be made to minimise these costs, hence my box ticking comment. 

I did not say that I do not wish these ventures to continue. As consumers we need to brace ourselves for a potentially large hit. I don't see reducing occupancy by a factor of 3 being unreasonable. £30 a wall session anyone? 

Now where is my bear? 

Those that won't tolerate the price increase, if any happens, will stop going. Some might build a board, others will simply fade into bumbledom and only go climbing outside when they are able. 

Those that will swallow the increase either value the training that much or enjoy indoor climbing in its own right enough that it still presents value for money. 

Just like everything in this world, the economics will dictate what survives. If enough people still go, walls will continue with reduced capacity and higher prices. If not they will close. Or a third option. 

Unlimited access to a specialised training venue/ fun indoor activity for £10 or less represented extremely good value anyway.

If prices increase I see more people going for monthly/ annual memberships. Which is great for the wall as a steady known income is easy to manage. If a monthly membership was £50 I could probably stomach up to £75 in the winter months. 

How many walls run at capacity?

I suspect off peak they won't need to reduce numbers, so no loss of revenue there. Peak times in winter, well TBH I would probably be happy to pay extra to not have to queue up for routes.

Yes loads of extra costs, but insurance is often based on footfall so with reduced numbers there may be a saving to have. Also with 1/3 of the users wear and tear will be reduced and they may be able to avoid paying additional staff to help out at peak times. 

Maybe walls might recognise the plight of some of their staff and stop over using zero hour contracts as well. I'd happily pay more for that. 

I think walls will be OK to open if gyms are OK to open. That isn't about silliness like cleaning holds after every use either, it's because few people will be infectious and if people social distance in a well ventilated building and keep their hands away from their face, risks are very low.  If local population infection levels increase again they will close alongside pubs etc.

It's funny peculiar how some delight in the plight of the walls, that I think are mostly excellent, speaking as a trad climber and boulderer who has climbed as much as I have outdoors for my ability.

There are particular times when they do get very busy - Big Rock most notably Tuesday evenings.  Implementing a booking system would control that to some extent, though, as if when you come to book Tuesdays are full you might go on a Monday or Wednesday instead (both for some reason very quiet days).  They could also dynamically price on that basis like airlines do.  So they might well get as many people through the doors, just in a less peaky way.

Most members of our club, took out memberships of our local wall once we couldn't climb, we'd paid when we went up till that point.

I think we'd switch to somewhere else if the price was too high. In the same way we'll drink elsewhere if the price of beer goes up too much.

I doubt our wall would increase their prices, but if they did I suspect they'd do it with consultation of the users, which is probably why, people were keen to support them through the Covid closure.

I don't get your point, is it against gyms reopening or against the working class who's inherently unhealthy?

I don't think most gyms will have 1/3 of people because of restrictions, mine for example was pretty empty during daytime mon-fri even though was next door to students accommodations so a booking system along with extended opening hours should see the same total numbers spread out.

I also don't think rising the prices would make sense business wise as lots of people will be already put off from returning and with a likely non rental shoes policy new people won't get in at all. On top of that I'd assume most gym goers got financially affected by the situation as well, is not only your precious charitable gym who got affected by the pandemic.

The government will still support workers until October at the very least and some more financial support for business might be available so I don't think will be that bad, at least for gyms who were doing it the right way beforehand.  

I would suggest that what they should do with limited capacity is do what anyone else selling a limited resource (like an airline) does - yield manage.  So it might be 20 quid to go on a Tuesday evening when it's busy, but a fiver at lunchtime when it's normally near empty, and maybe a tenner if you go at 8pm as it's usually quietened down by then.

I don't know how you'd do that with memberships, though.  Perhaps memberships could be stopped for that period with everyone having to book online and pre-pay for each visit at the going price, or perhaps a membership could give you £X of credit to book sessions based on how many times on average people with memberships tend to go to that wall.

(We might well find "whatever Rock Gym Pro implements" is the answer there, as climbing walls aren't hives of IT consultancy nor are they likely to have much spare money to pay for that)

Charging more at peak times makes lots of sense but in my opinion a distinction must be made between casuals on a single entry and members who were and will be the assured income for your business.

A price hike for someone who goes once or twice a month isn't much but it can get stupid steep for someone who was on a membership and goes 4-5 times a week.

I get the limited resource argument you're making but will it really be? Say I'm unsure about returning to the high street to buy groceries, I don't think them doubling the prices will get me there any sooner.

As with everything related to Covid reopening, no one really knows and we’ll just have to wait and see. I suspect any price increases will be relatively limited at first because walls won’t want to put off their clientele at a time when many may be hesitant about going.  

I'm sorry, Steve, (and I know we've mostly been singing from the same hymn sheet on this one) but I don't understand why climbing walls are considered to be 'relatively safe'. When we're continually told, I'm sure rightly, that the best thing we can be doing the whole time is washing our hands. Communally used handholds are horribly unhygienic things at the best of times. The argument that very few visiting climbers are likely to be infected seems quite weak (why and how?) It would only take one badly infected asymptomatic visitor to cause an absolute disaster, I would have thought. I'm not wanting an argument, I'm simply wanting to be told why I'm wrong, and would be delighted to shown why I'm wrong.

because at any given time, only a tiny proportion of the population ARE infected. and of those, some are in hospital or in bed, and how many of the rest are actually climbers? its a miniscule number. sure the risks of spreading if someone is infected and highly contagous are extremely high, but, in the grand scheme of things there is still very little risk. at the end of the day, if that risk is still too high for you, dont go!

As I understand it, the information that was given to the government, that they should consider opening the Gyms, was that the chance, in general, of anyone coming into contact with someone who has Corona virus has changed to 1 in 2,500. So to be sure of getting in contact with someone virally infected, you would have to be in touch (so to speak) with roughly on average, 2,500 people.

I wouldn't dream of going, even if I were still climbing. I'm still in total lockdown, because I think we're still at a very critical juncture right now.

Let’s look at it another way, if the footfall at a wall is 100 per day then using your logic over 25 days a covid sufferer is highly likely to visit. What the r rate in that scenario is, I don’t know but suspect it may be considerably more than 1

Most walls are not going to get 100 per day, and over 25 days you are more likely to get several re-visits, rather than 2500 different people over that period: However I do know what you are hinting at. Go ask the cabinet how they were directed on this. Of course there could be the situation like the clothing industry in Leicester, and the close living communities in that city. As we all know, most climbers live in hives of like minded rock-athletes....

Not sure if the cabinet are worth asking as all decisions seem to be made by Cummings

Here's how the Berlin climbing walls did it, for what it's worth:

First stage (about 6 weeks ago):

Compulsory online booking in advance and payment as a rope of 2 for a 2 hour slot. Only 12-16 climbers admitted for each slot; 15 min pause between the slots to avoid crowding during the changeover.

Changing rooms and showers closed, you had to arrive ready to climb. Toilets open, but had to be used singly. Masks and hand disinfection at reception compulsory. 

Only climb next to another party if at least one free line of bolts/quickdraws separating you (Bouldering walls: 3m distance to next boulderer). Liquid chalk compulsory at several walls. 2m distance between members of different parties at all times. The usual sneeze/cough practice to be observed.

The WHO hadn't yet published its findings on the probably important role of aerosol particles in spreading infection, but all the walls I visited always had all windows and doors wide open; you were also encouraged to use outdoor facilities if available.

Prices: all reduced due to lack of facilities and climbing time; typically from 16€ down to 10€ per person per slot. The owner of one wall told me that they typically make a good profit in the autumn and winter and break even when the weather gets warmer. He'd luckily had a good winter, which was helping him to survive.

The walls were visited regularly by health officials, and there were apparently no problems with owners or climbers not complying with the rules.

Present situation: booking not necessary; prices back to normal; climbing time and number of climbers no longer limited; changing rooms (with mask) but not showers now available; personal and route distancing still applicable.

It seems to have worked, but Germany has not been hit as hard as the UK so hard to say if a similar system would be feasible. 

Yes, I think we are at a very dangerous point for the very reason that the personal risk is now very low. People are increasingly tempted to do things like, say, share a car with the reasoning that the chances of catching covid during the journey is probably lower than having a bad crash. But this, of course, is completely missing the point and I get the impression that a lot of people are now missing the point. 

Having said that, about the only thing that I'm at all interested in reopening is the climbing wall; couldn't care less about pubs and so on!

But it's not (or shouldn't be) about immediate personal risk; it is about organising society so that each infected person on average infects fewer than one other person.

you dont seem to understand how the R rate works. the R rate doesnt change for a given scenario, the R rate is what the R rate is. people aren't becoming more or less contageous as the R rate goes up or down. the virus is still just as contageous as it ever was (allowing for any minor mutations which may have occured). Its simply a measure (in a round about way) of how many infected people are comming into contact with how many uninfected people. being in a climbing wall, that value is not going to be any different to any other enclosed space such as shops, pubs, restaurants etc. most people have been going to the supermarket since day 1... high street shops for about a month and pubs etc for a week or more now.

good for you. live in your cave for the next 18+ months if you wish. meanwhile the rest of us are getting back to some semblance of normality. no point being alive if you aint livin'.

Both of you are probably doing the right thing.
GS is at an age where he should be taking extra precautions.  You're at an age where you should be doing stuff that supports the economy and as long as you do it responsibly should be encouraged to do so. 

That is all very well as long as the rest of us getting back to normality doesn't create a situation where Gordon feels he has to spend the rest of his life in a cave. It is far from being a simple situation.

That might just be the most reasonable point in a UKC argument i have ever heard!

You don’t understand the r rate. It is the transmission rate. It varies according to the njmber and qualirlty of contacts an infected person has.

My climbing has gone to shit since lockdown, admittedly lockdown wasn't the sole factor but it was certainly the main thing which kicked off my decline. Now I'm at the stage where I'm so weak I can't get any meaningful sessions outdoors anymore so I'm desperate for my local wall to re open so I've got a wide range of lower grade stuff I can get the milage on to improve again.

Would I pay a premium for say 6 months? Maybe, not triple that would be silly but I'd pay a bit more provided there was a set date when the price would go back to normal and it wasn't an excuse for a permanent price hike.

Interesting thoughts. 

My 3 local walls are Keswick, Kendal and ER. I doubt I would drive to the distant walls if I were under a time restraint, I would end up spending longer driving than climbing. A price increase here would suit me. 

Keswick is closer so I could tolerate a time limit there.

Whatever happens, I will be giving it at least a month to see what happens before I go. 

I won't be a one of Johnson's obedient lab rats. 

There seem to now be two types of climber - those with home boards who have emerged as good or better then ever, and those without, whose climbing has, as you say, gone to shit. Unless I get a decent winter at the wall, I seriously wonder whether my climbing will ever recover.

Not just climbing , I think with most sports there are those who have used lockdown to focus on training. Others due to childcare comitments, work or whatever have done far less than usual. 

Yeah mate, I've been racking up the KMs 

My local walls are the same as yours as it happens. I didn't consider time slots, but you're right anything less than a 2 hour session at Eden Rock or Kendal wouldn't be worth it. Keswick being smaller and nearer maybe.

As for home boards, yes I have a few friends who use one and have staid strong. I've actually had access to it myself but I had little motivation just coming out of a wet winter with little outdoor climbing to stay inside training on a board on my own on sunny days. Meaning I trained little and got weaker to the point now that I'm too weak to get a worthwhile session on 45 board anyway.

You need a certain mindset to train regularly and hard inside on your own, especially when it's sunny outside. I couldn't really cut it for long and therefore nosedived. 

I’ve got a home board but find it hard to stay motivated to use it partic as I’ve been cranking out a high mileage on the bikes, 1000 miles one month. Goodness knows what that’ll do to my climbing

I have got really into using my home board, I find it has given me focus through this, something to look forward to after a days work. I have very little to benchmark against as I am not out climbing again yet. 

Don't know if you've tried it but laps using a shunt can help "awaken the beast" so to speak.

Personally, I need a 2:1 climb to drive ratio so would be looking for 4hrs+ to make the bigger walls worthwhile. 

The R number is not a ‘rate’ it’s dimensionless - it’s a ratio

If you say so. For most people it signifies the number of people an infected person infects. Call it what you will, that’s what it means. So if an infected person enters a climbing Centre and infects 20 people . R at that micro level is 20. If 3 other infected persons in that area isolate and infect no one then R for that area reduces to 5 for the area. It’s primary school arithmetic not complex at all . The following week the 20 manage to infect another 10, R becomes 0.5 for that week in that area

"infections per infected person"

In that sense it is a rate with respect to the number of infected people.

Or if you would prefer a rate with respect to time which is dimensionless, you could have a clock gaining 2 seconds per hour.

If bouldering walls were to ban people from sitting around on the mats, most boulderers would only need to be in there a third of the time they were previously. Problem solved.

I wouldn't go within half a mile of the climbing centers in Bristol on an eve once they re-open. They have been so painfully busy over the past year or so. 

Hopefully with more people working flexible hours, from home, etc. this bottle-neck will be more spread-out throughout the day.

I still expect climbing centers to be a petri dish of death in the coming months. I expect (hopefully incorrectly) that another upward curve will cause them to have to close again towards the end of the year. 

I think they've been pretty quiet for the last 3 months or so...