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Climbing Walls 'Not allowed' to supply water?!

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 DNye 28 Aug 2020

Just been to a nearby climbing wall in Devon (on me hols), and they are refusing refills of water as they 'aren't allowed due to COVID'?!! The only thing they are allowing is the sale of 330ml cans of water... for £1.20 a go!!!! 

Since lock down I've been to at least 2 other walls near my home in Reading and neither of them had any problem with topping up water bottles.  Is this new government guidance or plain old profiteering?

8
 Neil Williams 28 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

I suspect it's to do with their risk assessment, i.e. not wanting to put something under their tap that has had your gob on it, as they might accidentally touch the tap while doing so and contaminate it, also they will not want to handle your property generally.  Quite a few walls are doing the same, but they seem to mostly be making it clear so you can ensure you bring enough yourself.

OP DNye 28 Aug 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

But surely a paper cup of water would be ok? And why are they charging so much for a tin of the stuff? That's like £3 odd for a litre!

It would be nice if there was some consistency from wall to wall. I had no idea I had to bring extra supplies. 

9
 Donotello 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

What’s wrong with the tap in the toilet 

1
 Dax H 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

The climbing wall has a legal requirement to do a risk assessment and by the sound of it theirs includes not filling water bottles.

Nothing wrong with that at all. You have been handling and drinking out of the bottle, you hand it to them, they fill it and hand it back. Potential for you to pass infection to them, for them to pass it to you, to contaminate the tap and infect others.

They could get a stack of paper cups but I suspect it will mainly be locals going there who know and bring water from home.

OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Donotello:

I thought of that but they only had a hot tap. 🥵 

 Jenny C 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Donotello:

Yes most walls I use have a drinking water tap so you can help yourself. I guess there is still contamination risk from previous users, but that is for you to assess rather than a risk to staff (I certainly don't fancy water fountains at the moment). 

I kind of understand not wanting to handle your bottle, but in a world where we want to reduce single plastic use... 

 Reach>Talent 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

One of the many joys of Covid-19 is lots of businesses have been told they need to do a risk assessment: 

Under normal circumstances the person conducting a risk assessment should be able to display suitable levels of competence, through training or experience and unfortunately despite the enormous quantity of noise on the subject the UK isn't actually over run with infectious disease control specialists. This is creating some interesting problems where people who have a somewhat vague idea of infection control and quite often a very poor understanding of risk management are being told that to keep their business open they need to risk assess infection control; this then needs to be communicated to a general public who also have a poor understanding of infection control and little or no understanding of risk management. 

In short it is a bit of a cock up. I am a safety manager in the pharmaceutical industry and quite frankly the whole process has been pretty stressful so I am pretty sympathetic to anyone who has to do this while dealing with the general public!

 rogersavery 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

What do you do when you are climbing outdoors?

Just bring an enough water to the climbing wall to satisfy your requirements?

1
 wintertree 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

Their business, their liability, their choice.  I’ve no idea what risk a shared tap presents for passing infection on, but I’ll bet it’s more than 0.  No tap on the other hand removes the risk.  So, in the absence of clear guidance or factual information on the risk, there’s a simple solution.

Selling cans on the other hand - is this a vending machine or from a person?  What’re the risks there?  Is it higher or lower than a shared tap?  I have no idea.  It’s easier to have risk control measures if it’s a staff member selling it though - show they’ve been trained in safe working practices such as sanitising and mask wearing - where as demonstrating risk control measures on a shared tap would probably need some excessive measures such as having a staff member monitor it constantly to ensure its sanitised after each use.  So, selling cans makes it easier to shift the liability to the customer.  No idea if it reduces the risk.

The big news to me is that water comes in a can now.  I didn’t know that.

In reply to DNye:

Be thankful that they are open and that you feel low risk enough to use them. The wall has clearly conducted a thorough risk assessment which you should be glad for whether you agree with the detail or not. 

The extra spent on buying a can of water is what is known as Tw@t Tax and you got off lightly. I once had to stump up £15 for a charger cable in an airport because I had been  tw@t and forgotten my own.

You get water in cans?

 Reach>Talent 29 Aug 2020
In reply to wintertree:

Water is available in cans, bottles and those tetrapak cartons. I can understand it in countries where you can use the drinking water as a slimming aid but it seems odd in the UK.

I presume cans are a marketing strategy to appeal to people who are avoiding plastic for environmental reasons.

 deepsoup 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> The wall has clearly conducted a thorough risk assessment..

And have clearly got this a bit wrong really, but as Reach>Talent points out above that's entirely understandable and forgivable under the circumstances.  It's not as if anyone trying to run their business (and probably rescue it from near imminent collapse) has been getting much in the way of coherent help with this stuff.

 deepsoup 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Reach>Talent:

> I can understand it in countries where you can use the drinking water as a slimming aid but it seems odd in the UK.

Ha.  I saw a spoof advert for just that a while ago and I've never been able to find it again: water bottled at source and marketed as an aid to rapid weight loss.  If it was real I bet someone would buy it.

> I presume cans are a marketing strategy to appeal to people who are avoiding plastic for environmental reasons.

Slightly depressing thought.  But I suppose if people are determined to buy pre-packaged drinking water (or are effectively being forced to because they didn't bring any/enough and find themselves in a place where they're denied access to a tap), it's better that they buy that stuff than water bottled at source in f*cking Fiji.

 GerM 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Reach>Talent:

Water in a can does reduce plastic use, but it would be interesting to compare environmental impact overall of water in a can and water in a plastic bottle (I would guess that water from a tap would win hands down?). A can is by its very nature single use too, whereas a plastic bottle could be reused, although most probably aren't. I'd guess based on nothing more than intuition that the energy cost of manufacturing, transporting (and recycling) a can would be higher, although it could be properly recycled and the materials reused, whereas the costs of a plastic bottle might be lower (especially per use if reused), but is more problematic in disposal.

It is complicated in a way that similarly the risks of viral transmission with a can or your own bottle is probably more complicated than it first seems.

In reply to Jenny C:

We have disconnected our water fountain

In reply to GerM:

The energy costs in recycling a can are low, it is cheaper to recycle Al than it is to extract it from bauxite. This is why there has been a long history of recycling Al. Whilst canned water is unusual and raised my eyebrow, it does make sense. 

As does the walls risk assessment. From what I can gather from the posts above, there is no tap available for users to refill from. I am assuming a refill involves handing your bottle to a staff member for refilling. Many water bottles have some sort of bite valve on them. 

"What do you mean, you won't refill my bidon with the saliva soaked valve? How dare you" 

 GerM 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Some of the issues thoughtfull discussed here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/woodmackenzie/2019/09/02/will-aluminium-cans-r...

It doesn't follow through the calculations to their conclusion, but it seems plastic is marginally better on a number of fronts initially (production eneregy, transport costs), but which one 'wins' overall comes down to the detail of what happens in the disposal/recycling stage, and that reuse of plastic bottles or proper recycling of either material could well swing it either way. As a throwaway object it seems the plastic bottle is actually better in terms of energy, although possibly metal could be less problematic in terms of how it breaks down in the environment over time.

 deepsoup 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Many water bottles have some sort of bite valve on them. 

And many don't, but whichever kind of cap it is that gets removed for re-filling - easily done by the customer before handing the bottle over to be refilled. 

Customer puts bottle down on the counter.  Staff member sanitises hands (to protect the customer), holds the bottle with one hand, operates the tap with the other, places the bottle back on the counter, sanitises hands again (to protect her/himself) and is careful not to touch her/his own face during the process.  It's hardly rocket surgery.

Honestly, if the wall can't see a reasonably safe way for two people to handle the same piece of plastic within a few moments of each other they really shouldn't be open.

4
 PaulW 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

Not related to walls and water as such but I find that I do try to arrange my activities so as to avoid contact that is unnecessary. That means trying to minimise close contact with people and things outside my bubble where I can. I don't restrict what i do (within the rules) but do try to do them in a safe a manner as possible.

Seems sensible to take water or a flask in the car for a journey rather than have to go into a busy cafe. Same would apply to water at a wall.

 SDM 29 Aug 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Honestly, if the wall can't see a reasonably safe way for two people to handle the same piece of plastic within a few moments of each other they really shouldn't be open.

Honestly, if a customer can't be bothered to read what covid restrictions have been introduced at the wall and if they aren't capable of bringing their own bottle of water from home, maybe they shouldn't be going to the wall.

Every business has had to introduce restrictions to their normal operations due to covid. Some of these restrictions are necessary to reduce transmission. Some of the measures may be less effective. With very little clarity coming from the government and with plenty of information remaining hidden from the public, you have to expect that similar businesses will come to different conclusions regarding what restrictions are necessary.

It is a new disease, our understanding is developing all of the time, and the risk assessments are not being carried out by expert epidemiologists. Over time, we will probably see a phasing out of the less effective measures.

Either you look up the restrictions before you visit a business (nearly everywhere has published their restrictions online) and decide whether you still want to go, or you accept that your visit might have unexpected inconveniences.

If someone doesn't bother to look up what restrictions are in place, they shouldn't expect much sympathy if they don't like the restrictions.

2
 deepsoup 29 Aug 2020
In reply to SDM:

> With very little clarity coming from the government and with plenty of information remaining hidden from the public, you have to expect that similar businesses will come to different conclusions regarding what restrictions are necessary.

Yes, I said much the same myself and expressed my sympathy with the wall's management a little further up the thread.  Under the circumstances I think it's entirely understandable and quite forgivable that they have (imo) got this wrong. 

Whether that makes the customer a muppet for failing to anticipate this, well, you might be right I suppose but that's a separate issue really.  Also that would depend to some degree on whether the wall has actually published this policy.  Your assumption that all the details will be easily found on the wall's website seems quite a bold one to me.

> If someone doesn't bother to look up what restrictions are in place, they shouldn't expect much sympathy if they don't like the restrictions.

You may think it's impossibly wishy-washy of me but I prefer to think of it as 'nuance': I find I'm perfectly able to sympathise with both the wall and the punter simultaneously.

Blanche DuBois 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

If this is the extent of your worries in life at the moment, then lucky you!  TWPs.

 nufkin 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Donotello:

>  What’s wrong with the toilet

Fixed to address the lack of commitment in the original

OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Be thankful that they are open and that you feel low risk enough to use them. The wall has clearly conducted a thorough risk assessment which you should be glad for whether you agree with the detail or not. 

> The extra spent on buying a can of water is what is known as Tw@t Tax and you got off lightly. I once had to stump up £15 for a charger cable in an airport because I had been  tw@t and forgotten my own.

Absolutely thankful to have our climbing walls open again, and of course it's reassuring to know they have done a risk assessment.

I've been Tw@t taxed before! But I wouldn't expect it from a climbing wall. And honestly I don't think it is a tw@t tax, just an over zealous risk assessment maybe?

4
OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to rogersavery:

> What do you do when you are climbing outdoors?

> Just bring an enough water to the climbing wall to satisfy your requirements?

100%

Will do next time.

OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

 From what I can gather from the posts above, there is no tap available for users to refill from. I am assuming a refill involves handing your bottle to a staff member for refilling. Many water bottles have some sort of bite valve on them. 

> "What do you mean, you won't refill my bidon with the saliva soaked valve? How dare you" 

Ha! 

They did have water fountain tap things but i was told they had removed them. I couldn't find anywhere to refill so I asked at the reception desk. So to fill up would've meant them handling my bottle, yes. But only because they had removed the self-fill taps.

2
OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> And many don't, but whichever kind of cap it is that gets removed for re-filling - easily done by the customer before handing the bottle over to be refilled. 

> Customer puts bottle down on the counter.  Staff member sanitises hands (to protect the customer), holds the bottle with one hand, operates the tap with the other, places the bottle back on the counter, sanitises hands again (to protect her/himself) and is careful not to touch her/his own face during the process.  It's hardly rocket surgery.

> Honestly, if the wall can't see a reasonably safe way for two people to handle the same piece of plastic within a few moments of each other they really shouldn't be open.

Yeah, it seems pretty straight forward to me but I know, as Reach>Talent says above they're under a lot of pressure to meet guidelines without a lot of assistance. 

OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to SDM:

> Honestly, if a customer can't be bothered to read what covid restrictions have been introduced at the wall and if they aren't capable of bringing their own bottle of water from home, maybe they shouldn't be going to the wall.

😂 Bit harsh maybe? I did bring my bottle to the wall, I just wanted a bit more water. 

I have just looked on their website and it does say they have stopped the water fountains, but it's hardly obvious. To give you a bit of background; I'm on my holiday with my two toddlers. I have 2 hrs free so I find the nearest climbing wall and book a session. It wasn't very planned, and I guess I should've looked at the small print in more detail, but having been to other climbing walls which freely dish out H2O it hadn't really crossed my mind that it would be a problem.

> Every business has had to introduce restrictions to their normal operations due to covid. Some of these restrictions are necessary to reduce transmission. Some of the measures may be less effective. With very little clarity coming from the government and with plenty of information remaining hidden from the public, you have to expect that similar businesses will come to different conclusions regarding what restrictions are necessary.

> It is a new disease, our understanding is developing all of the time, and the risk assessments are not being carried out by expert epidemiologists. Over time, we will probably see a phasing out of the less effective measures.

> Either you look up the restrictions before you visit a business (nearly everywhere has published their restrictions online) and decide whether you still want to go, or you accept that your visit might have unexpected inconveniences.

> If someone doesn't bother to look up what restrictions are in place, they shouldn't expect much sympathy if they don't like the restrictions.

OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Yes, I said much the same myself and expressed my sympathy with the wall's management a little further up the thread.  Under the circumstances I think it's entirely understandable and quite forgivable that they have (imo) got this wrong. 

> Whether that makes the customer a muppet for failing to anticipate this, well, you might be right I suppose but that's a separate issue really.  Also that would depend to some degree on whether the wall has actually published this policy.  Your assumption that all the details will be easily found on the wall's website seems quite a bold one to me.

Probably makes me a muppet?! Probably should've done my research? Don't know.

> You may think it's impossibly wishy-washy of me but I prefer to think of it as 'nuance': I find I'm perfectly able to sympathise with both the wall and the punter simultaneously.

Well said. I absolutely empathise with the climbing wall and I'm more confused than anything.

1
OP DNye 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Blanche DuBois:

> If this is the extent of your worries in life at the moment, then lucky you!  TWPs.

Ha!

Of course this isn't the extent of my worries in life! I'm hardly going to come on here and open up to you about my troubles am I?! We talk about climbing stuff. That's what we do here isn't it?

By the way, I googled TWP but I still don't know what it means.

 wintertree 29 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

> just an over zealous risk assessment maybe?

If there was ever a time to be over-cautious rather than under-cautious this is it.  

2
 DancingOnRock 29 Aug 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

>As does the walls risk assessment. From what I can gather from the posts above, there is no tap available for users to refill from. I am assuming a refill involves handing your bottle to a staff member for refilling. Many water bottles have some sort of bite valve on them. 

>"What do you mean, you won't refill my bidon with the saliva soaked valve? How dare you" 

Am I missing something here?

The tap will be over a sink, and from the tap will be fresh water. You can fill the bottle from the tap, at the same time you can wash the bottle, and wash your hands. No one has to test the bite valve works with their own mouth before filling or cleaning.

This is all getting extremely paranoia based and there’s very little logic in what people are doing.

Post edited at 23:42
1
 DancingOnRock 29 Aug 2020
In reply to wintertree:

There’s a difference between cautious and zealous. I look both ways before crossing the road to check for cars. I don’t just never cross a road because I might get hit by a car I didn’t see. 

2
OP DNye 30 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

Right, here are the government guidelines for Providers of grassroots sport and gym/leisure facilities:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/prov...

Under Section 2.1.3. Contact while using facilities

'Ensure that any water fountains have signage which prohibits face-to-tap drinking (no receptacle) and that these facilities are used only to refill personal bottles or containers.'

 FactorXXX 30 Aug 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Customer puts bottle down on the counter.  Staff member sanitises hands (to protect the customer), holds the bottle with one hand, operates the tap with the other, places the bottle back on the counter, sanitises hands again (to protect her/himself) and is careful not to touch her/his own face during the process.  It's hardly rocket surgery.

As if that will actually happen in real life as all you're doing is adding extra actions for no reason.
The best and obvious policy is that the customer turns up at the wall with their own water bottle, etc. and therefore shouldn't need to use shared facilities unnecessarily.  

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Instead the wall chose to simply say no and remove the procedure and any associated risk. 

The risk assessment is there to protect the users, the staff and the business. A covid outbreak isn't going to help any of these. 

Can we have a sweepstake just for fun. How long until someone is whining on here about there wall being closed due to Covid and how unnecessary it is? 

I will put a quid on February. 

 deepsoup 30 Aug 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

> As if that will actually happen in real life as all you're doing is adding extra actions for no reason.

I hope it would, because a staff member who couldn't get their heads around that would also struggle with all the other "extra actions for no reason" that are currently required to run the business reasonably safely.  Lots of people have had to adapt to doing their jobs slightly differently.

There is one step they could omit though - if they didn't bother to sanitise their hands before handling the customer's water bottle that would increase the risk slightly to make it essentially the same as the risk involved in selling the customer a drink instead.

> The best and obvious policy is that the customer turns up at the wall with their own water bottle, etc. and therefore shouldn't need to use shared facilities unnecessarily.  

Well yes of course.  (As long as the customer isn't leaving their bottle lying about on the mats, it's even more antisocial now than it ever was.)  But if they can sell customers a drink they can also dispense tap water.

 deepsoup 30 Aug 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Instead the wall chose to simply say no and remove the procedure and any associated risk. 

They didn't remove "any associated risk".  They had a longer conversation with the customer than would otherwise have been necessary and then sold them a drink instead.  If the policy is there to reduce risk that isn't a clear win, it's a score draw at best.  Albeit with the added bonus of flogging one more can out of the fridge and moving the business 50p further away from bankruptcy.

That is invariably the nature of control measures brought in as a result of risk assessments, you're generally making a trade off, hopefully eliminating a larger risk and introducing a much smaller one instead.  But when the risks are small and poorly understood it isn't always that easy to be sure you're getting it right.

Having thought about it for a bit, I think my approach would be this:  Keep the notice on the website that water bottles won't be refilled but make it the actual policy that exceptions will be made as required, and buy a jug.  Then on the occasion that customers do ask for their water bottle to be topped up, have them take the top off and put it on the counter, then top it up from the jug without ever touching it.

2
 MischaHY 30 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

The great thing about hot water is that it cools down. Just to save you the stressing. 

I read these UK covid threads from DE and despair.

Literally the only major difference in climbing gyms here is limited capacity. That's it. 

I'm so confused about what is going on in the UK. 

Why are there massive threads about tiny, miniscule actions? 

'The staff member can disinfect their hands and the customer can take the lid off' 

Am I actually going straight-up f*cking insane? Is this all a covid fever dream? 

If you are at a climbing gym, you are already making close personal contact with the bacterial load of literally hundreds of people. You are mixing with their sweat, skin oils, dead skin, breath vapour and sooooo much more. 

Sanitising the staff members hands every time they fill a bottle just means they'll have wrecked skin. 

*Drifts off into intelligible screaming* 

Monkeydoo 30 Aug 2020
In reply to SDM:

Said the climbing wall owner

Bit ridiculous when you can go to a pub and get any drink you like ?? 

 slab_happy 30 Aug 2020
In reply to Monkeydoo:

> Bit ridiculous when you can go to a pub and get any drink you like ?? 

Yeah, not like there have already been multiple outbreaks traced to pubs or anything ...

Pubs are open because the government's been heavily lobbied by the industry, not because they're in any way low-risk.

1
 wintertree 30 Aug 2020
In reply to Monkeydoo:

> Bit ridiculous when you can go to a pub and get any drink you like ?? 

If you ask a pub to refill a pint glass they will probably refuse on hygiene grounds.  Likewise the last time I asked to refill a water bottle they wouldn’t, but would give me a pint of water to refill it from.

But yes it’s ridiculous that pubs are open - my (soon to be former) employer still hasn’t reopened our offices which seems like a largely pointless effort, except through the eyes of avoiding any liability...

1
 wintertree 30 Aug 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

If we’re going to argue pointlessly over minutia far removed from the coal face of infection, let us be thorough...

> They didn't remove "any associated risk".  They had a longer conversation with the customer than would otherwise have been necessary and then sold them a drink instead.

But what about the next 20 times the customer visits?  Rather than spend £5/litre of water they’ll simply bring their own, massively reducing the amount of staff / customer interaction in total compared to that one lengthier interaction.

 DancingOnRock 30 Aug 2020
In reply to wintertree:

We’ve already covered the ‘being your own aspect’.

However sport England have it covered and there’s no risk to refilling bottles from taps. 

 deepsoup 30 Aug 2020
In reply to wintertree:

> But what about the next 20 times the customer visits?

I don't think that's relevant.  This customer was visiting the wall while on holiday in the area, so won't be back again any time soon, and was unaware of the policy prior to visiting the wall.

But ok, for the purposes of recreational nitpicking, how about this: "Sure, no problem.  But it's our policy not to do this really, so please remember to bring a full water bottle with you next time."

I'm pretty absent minded, but I don't think I'd ask 20 times.  And I certainly wouldn't be complaining about it after the first.  (Not that the OP here is actually complaining as opposed to merely expressing a degree of puzzlement.) 

But even if refilling a customer's water bottle is genuinely more risky than serving drinks and snacks, which they are doing, the difference has to be marginal to say the least.  It's just as easy to refuse the second or third time as the first.  There need be no "next 20 times".

Irrelevant bit, quoted out of order:

> If we’re going to argue pointlessly over minutia far removed from the coal face of infection, let us be thorough...

Woah!  "Coal face of infection"?  It's a cracking bit of emotive language, but is that really a thing?  I think a pandemic is much more nebulous than that, which is precisely what makes it so difficult to deal with.  Unlike outbreaks of disease that do have a 'coal face' like Legionnaires say, or food poisoning, which are much easier to contain.

Funny, I don't think I am arguing pointlessly over minutiae.  I'm certainly not trying to win at anything here, and I've already said a couple of times that although I think they've got it wrong in this case I sympathise with the management of the wall and think what they've done is entirely understandable.

Hm.  You might be right though.
I've spent a lot of time arguing pointlessly on here in the past, probably to the detriment of my mental health.  I've been trying to give it up lately and did think I was doing pretty well having mostly been managing to stay out of the top 40 saddos.  Go on, nitpick a bit more, it'll be interesting to see if I have the willpower to ignore you.

1
 wintertree 30 Aug 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> I don't think that's relevant.  This customer was visiting the wall while on holiday in the area, so won't be back again any time soon, and was unaware of the policy prior to visiting the wall.

Sure, but they didn’t know that; in general encouraging customers to bring their own water reduces customer/staff contact and charging £5/litre is one way to do that - and more effective than politely asking I suspect...

I think we both sympathies with the management - nothing can please everyone at the best of times, and these times aren’t the best.

> Woah!  "Coal face of infection"?  It's a cracking bit of emotive language, but is that really a thing?

I think in the significant localised outbreaks it is; but in general it’s nebulous as you say. What I meant is that I don’t think water acquiring procedures in a climbing wall are likely the problem.

> Go on, nitpick a bit more, it'll be interesting to see if I have the willpower to ignore you.

Its all there in my first sentence - it’s about the bulk statistical behaviour, the individual is secondary.  The important thing about a healthy argument is to pick something irrelevant and dig in!

 deepsoup 30 Aug 2020
In reply to wintertree:

Damn.  Failed..

> The important thing about a healthy argument is to pick something irrelevant and dig in!

..but only in so far as to say I'd give you a 'like' if I hadn't given those up too.

 DancingOnRock 30 Aug 2020
In reply to slab_happy:

The outbreaks in pubs aren’t from formites. They’re from people getting too close to each other. And how many outbreaks have there been so far? 
 

I believe Spain tracked one outbreak of 90+ infections to one event. 
 

Small numbers of people gathering is not a problem. Sweden allowed gatherings of up to 50 people. It’s when you fill areas with people up close and then they all move about to different pubs and bars in the same evening is where you get problems. 
 

R0 is about 3 - that’s an average calculation. One person might infect 30 people while 9 infect zero. 

 DancingOnRock 30 Aug 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

>Funny, I don't think I am arguing pointlessly over minutiae.

 

Indeed. This may be one occasion at one wall, but it illustrates what’s going on all over the country with people. Last week it was schools and mask u-turn. The experts make a suggestion and the unions start complaining. Since when were unions and school teachers the experts? They’ve been calling for guidance throughout the epidemic. Seems they only want guidance that fits with what they want to do. What’s the point of that?

3
Monkeydoo 30 Aug 2020
In reply to slab_happy:

So going to a wall and sharing hand holds with a hundred other people is ok but filling your water bottle is not ! ?¿

 slab_happy 30 Aug 2020
In reply to Monkeydoo:

> So going to a wall and sharing hand holds with a hundred other people is ok but filling your water bottle is not ! ?¿

No, I'm just pointing out that "pubs are allowed to do this so it must be safe!" is not a great argument.

OP DNye 30 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

Thanks for all your responses, it's been enlightening hearing all opinions.

I guess I still feel it's bit mean not to give someone a glass of water when they are thirsty, and I can't think of a decent reason why they are charging so much for a can (yes, a can!), of water.

Anyway, I feel like this has run it's course so I'm going to get on with what's left of my holiday. 

Cheers, keep those bottles topped up!

1
OP DNye 30 Aug 2020
In reply to DNye:

Sorry, one last thing: For anyone who is interested, as per my previous post, the government guidelines state you CAN have a communal water tap to fill your own bottles. (The wall in question had removed theirs, which is why I was asking at the counter).

Cheers!

> Right, here are the government guidelines for Providers of grassroots sport and gym/leisure facilities:

> Under Section 2.1.3. Contact while using facilities

> 'Ensure that any water fountains have signage which prohibits face-to-tap drinking (no receptacle) and that these facilities are used only to refill personal bottles or containers.'

2
 Iamgregp 01 Sep 2020

Here's an idea, stop being such a miserable tight arse and pay the £1.20

Bearing in mind that many climbing facilities are open but due to reduced capacity are making a loss I think paying 1 pound f*cking twenty for a bottle of water and not going on to the internet to complain about is the least we can do.

"Plain old profiteering" f*ck me, I wonder what the owners of said wall would think of that comment having just looked at all the red on their balance sheets? 

9
 Jenny C 01 Sep 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

Totally disagree - don't encourage unnecessary waste by use of disposables.

Cans maybe better than plastic, but packaging free tap water is the best option by far. 

 La benya 01 Sep 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

You've just voiced support for canned water.... canned. Water.

 Iamgregp 01 Sep 2020
In reply to Jenny C:

I'd agree with the sentiment of not encouraging unnecessary waste, I never buy still water in any type of receptacle.  

I think that the bottled water industries' success in somehow convincing so many of the population that it is somehow better for them to buy and drink their water out of single use plastic bottles (or sometimes cans these days)  rather than the perfectly good water that comes out of the taps, which they've already paid for, is a f*cking disgrace.

I see people in the supermarket buying litres and litres of still water and it infuriates me massively.  Imagine someone from 50 years ago getting transported to the present day, if they saw that they would be asking what the problem with tap water is, imagine their response when you told them it's totally fine.

So yes I agree 100% that it's best to fill up your own bottle from the tap.  But if you've done that, and you've run out like the OP did, and you have to go and buy it in a recyclable receptacle then just suck it up, swallow the £1.20 cost and bear in mind the building you're standing in is probably losing money whilst you're doing it so maybe think twice about moaning about it on the internet.

It's worth noting that the OP's original post was more of a moan about the cost and the wall's "profiteering"  which made no mention of the environmental impact.  I'd probably have kept my mouth shut if that was the focus.

1
 Iamgregp 01 Sep 2020
In reply to La benya:

Batter than plastic bottles, I guess?!?!

I'm not pro canned water, I'm anti tight arse moaning

  

3
 kevin stephens 01 Sep 2020
In reply to DNye:

Just take your own water bottle(s) and stop whinging. Profiteering?????? Where have you been the last few months?

2
Monkeydoo 02 Sep 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

Tight arses paying for luxury lifestyles while still grafting the 8-8 shifts ! 

I remember when people opened climbing walls because they loved climbing !

1
Monkeydoo 02 Sep 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

Pretty sure your moaning about people moaning

 Trangia 02 Sep 2020
In reply to Donotello:

> What’s wrong with the tap in the toilet 

In my experience most modern wash basins are too shallow to enable you to fit a water bottle under the tap. 

I went into a cafe recently and asked if I could top up my water bottle. They had a jug of fresh water which they used to pour the water into it whilst I held the water bottle under it. That way was perfectly hygienic with no need for me to touch their jug and no need for them to touch my water bottle whilst keeping the spout clear of the bottle neck. There is absolutely no reason why a wall couldn't do this.

 Iamgregp 02 Sep 2020
In reply to Monkeydoo:

I am, was going to make reference to that fact to be honest!


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