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Doctor's orders: hangboarding but no climbing

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 Brodes 26 Feb 2018

I've tweaked a muscle in my lower back.  Nothing too serious probably, but requires some physio and a few months away from activities that strain the lower back. So no climbing until the summer, probably.

I'm keen to retain last year's gains, and maybe even get stronger for the summer, without stressing lower back.  My plan is to replace climbing with 3 hang board sessions a week, and some core and flexibility training.  So yesterday I installed a beastmaker 1000 and a pull up bar in the kitchen. 

I'm a complete hangboard newbie.  So I'm struggling with the huge volume of advice on the internet regarding handboard training. Essentially the choice seems to be between repeaters (e.g. sets 6* of 7s on, and 3 sec rest), and maximum weight protocols (e.g. pick a hold you can hand for max of 15s, then do sets of 11s on, and rest for 1 min. progression by smaller holds or adding weight).  The former seems to be more for power endurance.  The latter for strength.

Realistically I'm an HVS/E1 trad leader, and 6a/b O/S sport.  Do you think I will go far wrong just trying to do the beastmaker app "Beasty 5A" program for a few weeks?  I tried it yesterday and got nowhere near the end.  It's certainly more of a repeater protocol, but I thought that would be a more gentle introduction for my muscles/tendons etc. 

 

All comments welcome!

 

Steven

1
 jkarran 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

I can't imagine a hangboard will be any gentler on your lower back than climbing carefully with your feet engaged, to be honest I suspect quite the opposite. Are you sure your doc really is giving you the best advice or more to the point they're fully understanding what you've taken good advice to mean, that you're not just taking their words literally while totally missing the spirit of it because you want to keep 'climbing'.

You might be surprised how little difference a  lay off actually makes, especially if it clears up some niggly injuries. Personally with my sensible hat on I'd find something fun and different to try for a little while. With my old climbing-mad hat on I'd have probably just carried on climbing but a bit more carefully.

jk

Malarkey 26 Feb 2018
In reply to jkarran:

Unless you are doing an L-sit while hang boarding I can't imagine it being more strenuous than climbing. I don' feel any load on my lower back at all.

 yoshi.h 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

Don't do max weight hangs. Sounds like you're not ready for them for a long while.

I would also say, do not follow the beastmaker sets as even the easiest set is not for beginners.

I say set yourself repeaters with reps/set that are manageable with good form (engaged scapular) and mix it up with longer hangs which use the same rep/set pattern as you have described.

If I'm honest if you're at 6a I think improving general fitness would be far more beneficial to your climbing than hangboarding.

1
 slab_happy 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

> It's certainly more of a repeater protocol, but I thought that would be a more gentle introduction for my muscles/tendons etc.

I'd definitely vote for a repeaters-based program for that reason. And it will build up strength too; it's just tilted a bit  more towards power-endurance rather than pure one-rep-max strength.

However, everyone seems to agree that the numbers on the official Beastmaker programs bear no relation to grades climbed. Not being able to finish the "easiest" one is common.

Personally, I'd suggest making your own program -- several sets of repeaters using different holds, with rests of about 3 mins between sets -- aiming for something you can just about finish with good form.  There are lots of phone app timers you can use.

See how it goes and how your fingers feel; you may well need to start with fewer than three hangboard sessions per week and then build up. Start on the easy side  and see how you progress over time, increasing volume and difficulty as you can handle it.

Also, make sure you warm up properly before hangboarding! It's trickier at home than at a climbing wall, but don't skimp on it.

Post edited at 11:05
 Paul Crusher R 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

I would be inclined to try something like this from Crusher, as a beginners fingerboard session... but with a bad back you're probably best resting up!

http://crusherholdsclimbing.blogspot.co.uk/2016/

2
OP Brodes 26 Feb 2018
In reply to jkarran:

Great comments - thanks. 

OK - I admit it - the physio never actually said that fingerboarding was OK.  She said not to do anything that makes the existing tweak hurt.  Putting on my socks hurts, using the same hold for hand and foot hurts, and holding an awkward body tension hurts a bit.  Everything else is fine.  I can do leg raises, chin ups, press ups, running, cycling all without any discomfort.  The physio is focussing on spinal mobility at the moment.

OP Brodes 26 Feb 2018
In reply to slab_happy:

> I'd definitely vote for a repeaters-based program for that reason. And it will build up strength too; it's just tilted a bit  more towards power-endurance rather than pure one-rep-max strength.

That works for me.  When I've failed on routes it's usually due to loss of grip strength due to hanging around too long while figuring out the move.

> However, everyone seems to agree that the numbers on the official Beastmaker programs bear no relation to grades climbed. Not being able to finish the "easiest" one is common.

I also read that separately.  Perhaps aiming to finish the easiest work out is a goal in itself!

> Personally, I'd suggest making your own program -- several sets of repeaters using different holds, with rests of about 3 mins between sets -- aiming for something you can just about finish with good form.  There are lots of phone app timers you can use.

Sounds reasonable to me.  I'll include slopers, which are a weak point for me, and are not in the beasty 5A program.

> See how it goes and how your fingers feel; you may well need to start with fewer than three hangboard sessions per week and then build up. Start on the easy side  and see how you progress over time, increasing volume and difficulty as you can handle it.

OK - I'll go for 2 days rest between each session.

> Also, make sure you warm up properly before hangboarding! It's trickier at home than at a climbing wall, but don't skimp on it.

This I'm careful about.  I don't want to ruin my fingers before summer climbing season.

Brodes

In reply to Brodes:

Actually, the Beasty 5a introduces you to open hand slopers from what i remember (could be the 5a). Doing some open hand programmes are some of the most valuable things you can develop. 

I certainly dont get any back twinges from the board, even doing knee raises during the programme.

 Fishmate 26 Feb 2018
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> I certainly dont get any back twinges from the board, even doing knee raises during the programme.

Having had a spinal operation, I'd say knee raises are less likely to cause back issues than straight hanging.

To the OP, if you are climbing f6a/b, it might (not necessarily without knowing your background) suggest your climbing core isn't developed to take the strain in your lower back when fingerboarding. Remember, the core must be engaged when hanging, including the lower back muscles. If you are struggling on any hold, regardless of it's size or your grade, you will contract the muscles you are trying to repair, so I would suggest being extremely careful.

As someone above suggested, work on conditioning and gentle (not too dynamic) exercises might help. Perhaps, be happy with a slow progress rather than risking further injury and delay? The rock isn't going anywhere...

 

 

OP Brodes 26 Feb 2018
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> Actually, the Beasty 5a introduces you to open hand slopers from what i remember (could be the 5a). Doing some open hand programmes are some of the most valuable things you can develop. 

I have see a youtube video of the beastmaker '5a' program that includes slopers.  However, that's not on the current Beastmaker App, that i downloaded at the weekend.  The App Beastmaker 1000 'Beasty 5A' program is as follows:

1. Jug. 6 sets of 7s on, 3s off. 2min 30s rest

2. Jug. 6* 7s on, 3s off. 2min 30s rest

3. Deep 3 finger pocket. 3 fingers - no pinky.  Open grip. 6* 7s on, 3s off. 2min 30s rest

4. Deep 4 finger pocket. 3 fingers - no pinky.  Open grip. 6* 7s on, 3s off. 2min 30s rest

5. Deep 4 finger pocket. 4 fingers.  'Chisel grip' (half crimp?). 6* 7s on, 3s off. 2min 30s rest

6. Deep 4 finger pocket. 4 fingers.  'Chisel grip' (half crimp?). 6* 7s on, 3s off. 6min rest,

and then repeat above once (for a total of 12 hangs..

 

In future I may vary the above to include slopers.  That said, currently I can't hang the 35 degree sloper for more than a few seconds

 

 

 Fishmate 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

> In future I may vary the above to include slopers.  That said, currently I can't hang the 35 degree sloper for more than a few seconds.

Don't get too bogged down by the BM app sessions. They are useful as a reference point now and again. Most people can't hang the 35° for a while. The point of the BM is to work your weaknesses as well as develop your srengths, i.e. there is no point in crimping all session if your crimping is way better than your open hand strength (if viewing training in general).

Use the 20° with the 35° and alternate hands. Also, try nestling your index finger against the 20 for more support until you can use it independently. Similarly, if you want to hang a smaller edge, you start by using lh on a large edge and the rh on a small edge (and vice versa). Baby steps are better than injury. Hope that helps

 

OP Brodes 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Fishmate:

>  Hope that helps

 

Yes it does. I'll be a bit more creative rather than just bashing at the 5A until i can finish it.  Injury free is the name of the game.

 

Steven

 

 Fishmate 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

Another thing that might be useful to know is that BM's change in texture from board to board. E.g. I can't hang my 35° at home (using both hands) without being well warmed up and using liquid chalk. However, I can hang the BM at my climbing wall as soon as I walk up to it, even without warm up (I wont divulge into reasons why).

Try and test a few other boards and you'll get an idea of why you get the results you do on your home BM. Good luck.

 

 TonyB 26 Feb 2018

> Unless you are doing an L-sit while hang boarding I can't imagine it being more strenuous than climbing. I don' feel any load on my lower back at all.

I'm not sure about "more strenuous than climbing", but hanging with good form requires a surprising amount of engagement in a large range of muscles. Certainly the shoulders, arms and upper back are well engaged. I haven't particularly noticed the lower back, but I expect that it is also well engaged. 

If you have never done fingerboarding, 3 sessions a week sounds ferocious. Be very careful you don't end up with a finger injury too. I have no idea what frequency/intensity would be appropriate for you but I would be very careful. Do you have a climbing centre nearby that you can ask for advice from? I think this would be better than the Internet.

Malarkey 26 Feb 2018
In reply to TonyB:

Maybe, I notice it in may shoulders, neck, lightly engage abs but otherwise relaxed - but I'm just saying it's got to be less stressful than climbing which is all back straining.

Either way if climbing or hanging is hurting - then just stop.

 Ciro 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Malarkey:

> Unless you are doing an L-sit while hang boarding I can't imagine it being more strenuous than climbing. I don' feel any load on my lower back at all.

If you're doing them with strict form (hollow body position) you need more core tension than you'll use for easy climbing, and if you're crossing your feet behind you you'll be putting a slightly unnatural load on your lower vertebrae whether you feel it or not - if spinal mobility is an issue I dare say that could aggravate it.

Personally, I've always found climbing great for spinal mobility. I wouldn't hangboard with lower back problems unless I could comfortably hold a hollow body position - and if I could hold a hollow body position I'd expect to be able to climb easy routes all day.

 andyman666999 26 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

I would recommend Dave Macleods books which are great for not just physical training but mental and psychological approaches. Also he has.a great finger boarding vid here:

https://mojagear.com/videos/2017/12/28/fundamentals-fingerboard-training-da...

Cant argue with his credentials or results 

 slab_happy 26 Feb 2018
In reply to TonyB:

> If you have never done fingerboarding, 3 sessions a week sounds ferocious.

I'd imagine it depends on the intensity/volume of each session.

A modest fingerboarding session two or three times a week (with no climbing) might be quite do-able, assuming that the OP's been climbing several times a week.

And I'd suspect that "little and often" might be much more effective and safer for someone new to fingerboarding than "trash yourself then take a week to recover".

 Dave Garnett 27 Feb 2018
In reply to Ciro:

> Personally, I've always found climbing great for spinal mobility. I wouldn't hangboard with lower back problems 

I'd tend to agree.  I've always found that an easy bouldering circuit sorts out a sore back better than anything but obviously that might not appropriate for a specific injury.

I'm a believer in the principle that if it isn't hurting it's doing you good, if it is then you should stop.

 

 slab_happy 27 Feb 2018
In reply to Brodes:

> and some core and flexibility training.

Forgot to say  -- be careful with those too.

It's tricky; lack of core strength and certain kinds of flexibility (e.g. tight hamstrings) can make you vulnerable to lower back strains. So it's definitely good stuff to work on.

But core exercises and some stretches can also put stress on your lower back, especially if your form gets at all iffy.

So you need to be cautious and experimental. See what you can do safely without aggravating the tweak, and back off at the first hint of a twinge. If you're seeing a physio, get their advice on core/back stuff.

In reply to Fishmate:

> Another thing that might be useful to know is that BM's change in texture from board to board. E.g. I can't hang my 35° at home (using both hands) without being well warmed up and using liquid chalk. However, I can hang the BM at my climbing wall as soon as I walk up to it, even without warm up (I wont divulge into reasons why).

My 1000 is well used, but i find the slopers on the Climbingworks BMs significantly easier to hang. I was considering taking a really course glasspaper to mine. What’s your experience?

 

OP Brodes 27 Feb 2018
In reply to slab_happy:

> But core exercises and some stretches can also put stress on your lower back, especially if your form gets at all iffy.

> So you need to be cautious and experimental. See what you can do safely without aggravating the tweak, and back off at the first hint of a twinge. If you're seeing a physio, get their advice on core/back stuff.

+1 to this.  The first physio i saw around 6 months ago said carry on with stretches and yoga positions. "Push through any mild discomfort" was the advice.  That did not help at all.  If anything I stiffened up more, and the tweaked muscle just got tighter/more fatigued.  I started seeing a new physio last week and I'm very pleased with the new advice, which is to avoid entirely any discomfort in the tweaked muscle, and to work on mobility in other areas of the spine.  New physio's view is that the tweak is the result of an imbalance (hip/spine), so we are working on that.  It feels better already, but it's early days. 

Thanks for the great comments and discussion.  Comments on hollow body position, and avoiding injury are carefully noted.

 

 Fishmate 27 Feb 2018
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> My 1000 is well used, but i find the slopers on the Climbingworks BMs significantly easier to hang. I was considering taking a really course glasspaper to mine. What’s your experience?


I've gone a similar way, but would recommend using a light sandpaper first and working your way up. I've used a fine paper and it hasn't had much of an effect. I'd expect a higher frequency of use to make a board more usable. Maybe just swap your board with the CW's during a quiet period?

 Lurking Dave 01 Mar 2018
In reply to Brodes:

Do you live near somewhere that has Pilates classes (ideally reformer)? I was skeptical but the difference this makes to core stability is remarkable, will protect your lower back and form a good base for climbing.

Cheers

OP Brodes 01 Mar 2018
In reply to Lurking Dave:

> Do you live near somewhere that has Pilates classes (ideally reformer)? I was skeptical but the difference this makes to core stability is remarkable, will protect your lower back and form a good base for climbing.

In an attempt to strengthen up those hard-to-reach muscles, last night I went along to a 'gymnastics training and skills' session at a local crossfit gym.  Really good session.  Some exhausting core work (I experienced the 'hollow body' position), followed by work towards a muscle up, front lever, planche press up, and handstand press up.  It's fair to say that my core was worked.  And only a very minor twinge from my lower back while doing a pistol squat in the warm up. 

I'll stick with that for a while and see how it goes.  I'll be interested to see if it improves my climbing at all.

Steven

 

 dr_botnik 02 Mar 2018
In reply to Brodes:

> In an attempt to strengthen up those hard-to-reach muscles, last night I went along to a 'gymnastics training and skills' session at a local crossfit gym.  Really good session.  Some exhausting core work (I experienced the 'hollow body' position), followed by work towards a muscle up, front lever, planche press up, and handstand press up.  It's fair to say that my core was worked.  And only a very minor twinge from my lower back while doing a pistol squat in the warm up. 

If you can manage all that you can manage to top rope easier routes for sure, working on technique, which will be far more beneficial for someone climbing f6a than fingerboarding imho

OP Brodes 02 Mar 2018
In reply to dr_botnik:

> If you can manage all that you can manage to top rope easier routes for sure, working on technique, which will be far more beneficial for someone climbing f6a than fingerboarding imho


To be clear I can't actually do an unassisted front lever/muscle up/handstand press up.  Although I do seem to be fairly close to the muscle up on rings, and the handstand press up.  Light years away from the front lever though.

I've taken the view that my lower back tweak is due, at least in part, to being rather weak in some movements and strong in others.  So my mission is to strengthen (toughen?) up generally.  Hopefully that will make me less injury prone as I get a bit older.  I'll give it 3 months (and physio) and see how it goes. 


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