UKC

Working my way through a training cycle, with all eyes set on the spring. I've noticed, however, a sizeable disparity in my hangboard max scores. Wondering what people make of this?

All hangs 7 seconds, on a beast maker 1000 bottom rung (ie second smallest, so around 20mm):

Both arms: + 13kg

Left arm assisted: -17.5kg

Right arm assisted: -15.5kg

Currently weighing in c. 76.50kg first in the morning. With food and liquids on board later in the day, let's call that 78kg.

According to a (possibly silly) online 'finger strength calculator', my 1-arm max hangs indicate I could be climbing v3/6a, whereas my 2-arm max hangs indicate I could be climbing v6/7a on the left arm, v7/7a+ on the right arm.

(https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/)

FWIW,  I don't boulder much outside but I've been sending V5s in my warm-ups at the indoor gym recently. Redpointed sport 7b last November when I weight 4kg more and wasn't training as hard.

Anyway, whatever the merits of the calculator in terms of grade etc, it does correlate with my suspicion that there's something off: I seem disproportionately weak doing 2-arm hangs compared to 1-arm hangs, and my right side is significantly stronger than my left.* So, any thoughts on 

1) why

2) whether it matters

?

*weirdly, when I first started fingerboard training a few years ago, it was the other way around and my left was stronger than my right

I noticed similar, left stronger than right when training offset pull ups.

I figure it's down to hanging on with left while fiddling gear in with right. 

So that was my theory about why I used to be stronger left than right (I'm right handed, so I would preference the left hand for hanging on). But I'm not sure why in the c.2 years of hangboarding training since, I've seen much greater gains on my right hand than my left.

Bilateral deficit phenomenon accounts for most of the difference between your 1 and 2 arm scores.  Though at a ratio of ~1.5 you're definitely towards the weak end of 2 arm or strong end of 1 arm (most climbers will have a ratio of 1.6 - 2.0)  Is most of your fingerboard training 1-arm hangs?  If yes, that probably accounts for the rest of the disparity and you'd probably find your bilateral deficit would migrate into the 'normal' range if you switched to doing more weighted 2 arm hangs.

2kg difference between right and left one arm scores isn't significant.  That's probably more symmetrical than most in fact.

There's large variation in the relative finger strength between climbers operating at a given grade as there're a lot of variables in climbing performance.  At lower grades, I think the variation will be largest as other variables like technique and tactics can easily trump finger strength. eg. very weak or overweight but skilful climber vs strong and/or light but rubbish climber - both climb same grade but huge difference in finger strength.  Therefore I wouldn't read anything much into grade calculators/ extrapolators from fingerboard hang scores. 

That's very helpful!

Last year I definitely did more one-arm than two-arm hangs, in part because I just prefer them (feel more comfortable on the board in that position, have always found two-arms hangs awkward) - guess that helps explain the disparity.

Question: being predominantly a route climber, aiming to concentrate on trad this year, where raw finger strength isn't going to be my limiting factor, are there worthwhile advantages to be had trying to get stronger at 2-arm hangs and concentrating on those? Or would you say given my current goals etc just maintaining a basic hangboard protocol to ensure I have decent finger strength is all that's required? 

I'm no training expert but if I were you, regardless of specific goals, any time spent on a fingerboard I'd be doing 2-arm stuff to redress your large bilateral deficit.  Even more so if you factor in concentrating on trad - I'd have thought training front on, 2-arm hangs at different angles of lock much more applicable to majority of trad vs more sideways on, 1-arm hangs.  I think wrist position and shoulder position/engagement likely closer match on 2-arm hangs with what happens on trad routes.  Also given your trad focus and strength level, I'd tend to go for repeater style training at different angles of lock over max hang style trainings.  As again, more applicable I'd have thought.

All that said, I think you're right about other things usually being the limiting factor(s), especially with trad where other variables are amplified compared to sport or bouldering.  Essentially, I'd have thought for any trad climber capable of bashing out a few (2-arm) pull-ups on a first joint edge, increasing finger strength rapidly spills over into diminishing returns (even at fairly lofty E5+ grades).  Other variables like technique, currency, endurance, mindset/decision making, etc. much more likely to be limiting factors.  So we should probably always prioritise training/drilling those things or, perhaps even better, 'just go rock climbing'....?

Whilst fitness and finger stamina are important physical elements in trad climbing it’s not uncommon to have crux moves where raw finger strength is useful. Also, as Jerry Moffat used to point out, max finger strength will help your endurance by making the moves feel easier but finger stamina training won’t help your max finger strength which is why he prioritised finger strength training, though obviously he had good endurance too from the volume of climbing he did.

All makes sense! I actually did 5 weeks of repeater training (which I HATE) as preparatory hypertrophy work before moving to max hangs. I’ll consider trying to sort out the two arm deficit but as you say, the goal really has to be getting out climbing as much as possible ASAP now. 

Your apparent weakness at two-arm hangs relative to one-arm hangs makes me wonder about your assistance system for the one-arm hangs. It is surprising how much additional assistance can be afforded by a stiff pulley, or other small sources of friction/inertia. 

2kg difference is neither here nor there.

As someone else said though, your two arm vs one arm seems out.

Re. Comparing to calculators, it’s pretty much irrelevant to your progress. Benchmark everything, not just max hang, and record your progress, that’s what matters.

Yes, the first cost tier of pulleys are usually about 70% efficient, right? To get >90% I think you have to be the next level up...

Yep - I had a microtrax that I use for a pulley (petzl partner is the same I think) and the difference between that and a cheap amazon Chinese pulley is significant. I bought a cheap Petzl Rescue off ebay which was even better (bigger diameter pulley is a factor I think). I also switched over from using a 9mm rope to thin cord, which made a big difference as well (2mm dyneema cord only costs a few pounds at ropelocker.co.uk). 

Exact figures don't really mean anything much for training as long as you use the same system, but the 'backlash' or hysteresis means the resistance isn't constant as the pulley gets pulled and released leading to inconsistent results across sessions. I certainly wouldn't spend a lot of money on a pulley unless you can find other uses for one as well. I got my petzl rescue pulleys for £10 off ebay.

The pulley system I use is the one that’s in the gym: two Petzl pulleys, with thin cord (4mm?) running across both of them. I thought about the friction issue myself, but reckon it’s as minimised as realistically possible to make je given what resources I have access to. Doesn’t mean you aren’t still right, only that I don’t think I’m getting a huge cheat advantage. 

see post above. 4mm on proper Petzl pulleys should be fine... 

The basic level of Petzl pulleys - the Fixe and Mobile - are the sort of 70% ones I was thinking of. 

This adage is often repeated but to the best of my knowledge it has never been proved for already well trained climbers. However it is known from current sport science literature that the corresponding claim for repetition strength is false. In young already trained male athletes an increase in maximum strength on pullups does not lead to an increase in pull-up endurance and vice versa.

Anecdotally, my friend did around 40 strict pullups without being able to do a single one arm when he was training for the police and firemen games.

Interesting. In that case I’ll revert to the other old skool adage - ‘if you can’t pull on the holds then there’s nothing to endure’ 😉

Power Endurance - 'Without power, there is nothing to endure'

Clearly you only need to climb with your right arm since it climbs harder than your left 😉 

Yeah need to find some routs where all the small holds are for the right hand and all the gear gets placed by the left.

That is certainly true. 

For the group (I've already messaged the Op about this). I boulder outside quite frequently and I tried the calculator. It vastly overestimated my ability on one arm hangs and underestimated a touch on two arm hangs. I was told by lattice previously that the values I put in were roughly the same level on their books, so in my mind it must be something in the algorithm or the dataset the online calculator is using. 

I’m sure nobody cares, but I re-tested two arm max hangs today and got +16.25kg

Not necessarily the most enormous improvement but I’ll take it

Petzl fixe is 71% and the partner is 91% efficient (according to petzl)