UKC

I had my first visit to a wall at a local sports centre yesterday evening. When I went to put my helmet on (I always wear a helmet, inside and out), I was told to take it off.

"Sorry" they said. "Our safety assessment told us that the biggest risk around helmets was an incorrectly secured helmet landing on someone beneath the wall"

The mind boggles!

In reply to gooberman-hill:

There are good arguments against their use on autobelays.

What sort of person wears a helmet (by choice rather than at the insistence of the health and safety brigade) without fitting it properly?

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Our wall doesn't allow them on autobelays due to snagging risk. 

I would have thought a floor walking instructor should be able to spot a badly fitted helmet which is likely to fall off. It's not rocket science!

In reply to Jenny C:

Indeed. That's what I was expecting to read in the bottom half of the post.

To the OP: just out of interest, why wear a helmet indoors at all - what do you expect to hit you on the head?

Just to be clear (to everyone). This wasn't on autobelays - I am aware of the issues there. I was top roping.

I always wear a helmet indoors. It started when I started taking my kids to the wall when they were little, and needed to show a good example.

It's quite feasible to smack your head against the wall if you fall badly, and anyway, since I always wear a helmet outside, it makes sense to wear it inside - keep the balance etc the same.

Steve

In reply to ianstevens:

Other climbers' poorly secured helmets?!

In reply to ianstevens:

Perhaps they are more concerned about hitting their head in a fall? It can, and does happen.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Did you proceed to climb without a lid then?

In reply to ianstevens:

I don't wear a helmet indoors... but given how busy some walls are in the evenings there must be a reasonable chance of someone dropping something from their pockets or off their harness on your head. In Oxford Brookes wall I once had a belay device land at my feet after someone's gear loop snapped at the top of the wall (I think the loop was damaged and had been bodged back together).

In reply to goose299:

Yes - wasn't with the kids

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Fair enough, makes sense - like I said, just interested behind the mentality, not looking to chastise at all!  FWIW I always wear a helmet outdoors (and have "tested" it out) but never in. 

In reply to bigbobbyking:

Some people are just unable to grasp the sport climbing culture. Who would do a single pitch route with a belay device on their harness? Marginal gains. 

(Yes I know you could mislay it at a wall)

In reply to Pedro50:

Well, there are places where you start off on a sport route with 15 to 20 quickdraws on your harness, so that's a couple of kilos you should be training with if you want maximum specificity.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Well my point is, you carry the minimum necessary under any particular circumstance, although I see your point as well. 

In reply to Pedro50:

When it's for real and what you are doing is the actual objective, yes. Not necessarily when the circumstance is that you're training for something else.

Not that I actually do train at the wall carrying 20 quickdraws, but there are times when I think it would probably be a good idea. (Wheras it has never even occurred to me to wear a helmet)

In reply to ianstevens:

Several years ago I was leading on an indoor wall and reaching up to clip the second third bolt. I slipped with a loop of rope in my hand, and my leg caught behind it, causing me to flip upside down. My belayer held the fall but my apparently my head came literally within a inch or two of the ground (I was fine, and barely registered the fact, my poor belayer had to go and have a sit down!). I wasn't wearing a helmet. Had there been even a couple more inches of rope out, there's a fairly good chance that I wouldn't be typing this.

So while I (still) don't wear a helmet indoors personally, it is perfectly possible to injure your head, and I don't judge anybody else for wanting to feel a bit safer.

In reply to Jenny C:

I guess it's possibly less about logic/the ease with which it's possible to put a helmet on properly, and more about creating a risk assessment which shows that everything (where possible) has been accounted for (and avoiding having something extra to think about too)?

That is, with helmets not being essential, they eliminate them to avoid having to account for them with general risks within a climbing wall being low enough without them anyway perhaps?

In reply to AlanLittle:

The near total absence of helmet wearing at walls has always puzzled me.  As someone mentioned earlier, there's lots  of opportunity for stuff to be dropped on your head, especially given how rammed many walls get (phones, keys, belay devices, disintegrated Ron Hills, poorly belayed fat lumps,etc).

Also, I'm thinking, inverting when you fall is just as likely to occur inside as outside, except that walls are covered in relatively large, hard blobs waiting to stove in your bonce in a way that they generally aren't on a natural rock face.

Don't wear one inside myself mind.  I would ask myself why I don't wear one but I doubt I'd give myself an honest answer.

 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

So obviously they should be wearing helmets too - problem solved!

Actually I think the strongest argument for helmets at walls is so that if the leader breaks a hold and falls off, the belayer doesn't get knocked out by the broken hold so that they fail to hold the fall and the leader then lands on the unconscious belayer killing both of them. This is also an argument for assisted breaking devices.

 

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

I guess if only belayers go beyond the line on the floor in some climbing walls, that stops 'the average joe' having things dropped onto them?

In reply to Timmd:

Just the belayers then!

In reply to Pedro50:

Depends what you're climbing.  I normally have belay device and Ohm attached, as if I take them off I'll only end up leaving them lying around and forgetting them, and at the sort of grade I climb that tiny amount of extra weight just doesn't make any difference.

In reply to Robert Durran:

 

Breaking holds off at walls isn't an even remotely common occurrence.  I've had it happen once but it was on an outside artificial wall where the holds were somewhat perished and cracked already.

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

I've on the odd occasion climbed outdoors when the party has been a bit short of lids due to someone forgetting, and I have in those cases preferred to give mine to the belayer rather than wear it myself.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

At the walls I go to, normally the only people wearing helmets are the poor souls who are being instructed - normally large group of kids.

There are plenty of theoretical dangers, but the only injury I've had in about 5 years of climbing indoors is a sprained ankle gained when my climbing partner unilaterally decided to leave excess slack in the system because they thought I needed to experience a whipper, only for me to hit a large protruding hold as I fell (NB: a very counter-productive little bit of "fall practice").

Nonetheless, I regularly see people with far more slack out than is necessary, or people standing c.5, 6, 10m back from the wall; and they only roll their eyes if you mention it, taking you for "yet another moron who doesn't understand dynamic belaying".

All this says something to me about the difference between perception and reality, when it comes to danger...

In reply to Neil Williams:

A couple of years ago I was almost hit by a falling helmet some helmet dropped while abseiling. I was about 10m away from the wall tying in, and was not yet wearing my own helmet. 

Given that it was falling more or less free from roughly 60m that would not have been fun. Also, the helmet was cracked rather badly, so the impact force definitely was substantial.

The final impact was roughly were my belayer stood after I took the first pitch.

CB

In reply to Neil Williams:

Snapping indoor holds happened to me twice in the last five years alone, both times pulling across a roof.

CB

In reply to Neil Williams:

You clearly havn't been to Ratho during the spring thaw.

 

In reply to Neil Williams:

I doubt I could get off the ground with my Ohm attached. I'd have to work up to it using increasingly heavy weight belts.

 

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

If they're attentive enough they'll be able to dodge.

Mostly joking....

In reply to girlymonkey:

I saw a Petzl Sirocco (magnetic clip) undo itself halfway up a pitch recently.  It had appeared to be correctly fitted.  I guess it's only foam, though, so maybe wouldn't hurt much if it dropped on you from 15m up.

In reply to Robert Durran:

 

They are quite weighty, but I'm 18 stone to start with so it makes precious little difference.

In reply to cb294:

I've taken the bottom off[1] a wooden volume (fortunately stayed attached at the back) but never broken a hold despite my weighty-ness.  Interesting

Never been to Ratho though.

[1] There was a large juggy hold on the bottom of it which I pushed on with some force to stand up.

In reply to Pedro50:

Are you saying that my rope knife, alpine quickdraws, cordelettes, two belay plates and three emergency quickdraws are completely unnecessary? 

In reply to PPP:

Believe me I've seen pretty near this! 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Classic case of conflict of interests. Your interest is obviously your safety and no one else's. The wall's interest is in the safety of everyone using the centre as whole, including the idiots who don't put their helmets on correctly.

I think risk of head injury at a wall is likely to be pretty low though. It's possible that someone could get flipped upsidedown and combined with an inexperienced belayer who gives a hard catch it might happen. But at most walls the bolts are so close together the falls tend to be pretty short most of the time. Reduced air time means less likelihood of getting flipped I'd have thought. Don't recall ever having seen it happen indoors. If you start skipping clips you'll get longer falls but I think that's less likely to be something inexperienced climbers do anyway.

If your belayer knows what they're doing and you're familiar with keeping the rope in the right place I think you'd be very unlucky to hit your head in a fall.

In reply to stp: I'm thinking that a well designed climbing wall possibly wouldn't have much chance of people hitting their heads designed into it's shapes too.  The main wall at The Foundry strikes me as a very hard place to hit your head on for instance. 

 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Similar thread last year: "Indoor wall head injury stats". Incidentally I don't think it contains any stats but plenty about wearing helmets..

Biggest danger of being injured by falling things seems to me to be centred around fools or uncontrolled children wandering around at base and being hit by falling climber, especially bouldering areas. Also a danger to the faller. However I don't visit walls much.

In reply to stp:

It happened the other day at my local wall. Someone flipped and hit the back of their head against the wall, I think they fell just as they were about to clip, luckily they seemed to be ok. Last seen sitting up with paramedics in attendance. I guess if they had hit an angular hold the outcome might have been different.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ratho thaws out these days?  There's proof of global warming right there!

In reply to gooberman-hill:

It's interesting that this is a sport centre run wall, and I am beginning to wonder whether these are having difficulties managing the whole health and safety business.

 

Our local wall is in a sport centre and they have no staff with any knowledge of climbing or climbing walls, and so are relying purely on written documents, perhaps written by someone who has never seen the wall in question, and who is writing generic rules...the risk of being hit by a helmet falling 7 metres is less than one falling 22 metres , but the rules are not so nuanced. I imagine walls are a bit of a nightmare for sport centre management. 

In reply to Pedro50:

Go to any indoor climbing wall in Saxony and half the climbers will have a set of knotted slings on their harness to show what kind of sandstone hardman they are.  

Problem is, in most cases this will be correct!

CB

In reply to Pedro50:

Who wouldn't?

I've just belayed someone up the wall and it's my turn, where do I put my belay device?

Where it lives on my harness of course.

In reply to Pedro50:

Use device to abseil off sport route if not enough rope or belayer has heart attack etc? Many may not have experience of classic ab or using krab and rope over shoulder.

 

 

In reply to krikoman:

Err... me (for a start).

 

I place mine touching the wall, slightly to the side of the line of the route, i.e. if I fall off before clipping the first bolt, it's extremely unlikely/virtually impossible that I'll land on it. If I've got a bottle of water, it's in the same place. Anything else (e.g. belay specs case), fleece, same place. It's in by the wall so passers by/belayers can't trip over it.

Actually, re clipping the first bolt, if there are hard moves (for me), I'll use extra holds to pre-clip it. Am definitely not interested in taking a groundfall at a climbing centre.

 

Well, each to their own. But, on the crag, for me it's the same scenario, with pretty much the same clump of stuff.

Mick

 

 

 

 

In reply to Mick Ward:

This also goes if it's clipped to your harness, how do you land on it if it's on your harness? Unless you fall over, but who does that?

Like you said each to their own, but I can't see that it makes much difference.

I was told the other day to remove mine before climbing on an autobelay, it seemed a bit OTT considering I have 5 big gear loops on my harness which are more likely to get caught than my belay device. (this was the reason given for having to remove it!)

 

 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Do they allow sport routes there? 

If it’s all top roping then they’re probably right. 

In reply to oldie:

A lot more than have experience of "belayer has heart attack etc", I venture to guess. Does that sort of consideration *really* enter into your everyday route planning?

In reply to tmawer:

Probably why GLL have closed quite a few and continue to do so! 

In reply to petegunn:

My thinking exactly Pete! Needs sorting!! 

In reply to krikoman:

Could be a good case for autobelay-equipped walls to have proper incut holds rather than sticky-outy ones.

 

In reply to tmawer:

I would have thought that the risk of being hit was exactly the same.

 

The outcome, however...

 

In reply to Oceanrower:

Risk of being hit would be less for a longer drop. More time for people to yell and the victim to move. Would need cat like reflexes for a freefall drop, but sticky out holds would make it safer by giving it an opportunity to get hung up or bounce. 

 

In reply to krikoman:

 

Never heard of that!  Helmets yes, but not belay devices.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Very good, and gives you an honary place in the UKC pedants corner  

In reply to AlanLittle:

TBH no, and I have done very little sport climbing. I would have thought that a plate could be useful if  the rope was too short for lowering off. I have found that some far better trad climbers than me aren't familiar with abseiling without one. 

In reply to oldie:

Because you always lower off with sport climbing, you don't climb unless the rope is twice the length of the route as a minimum.  Could be useful if you misjudged, I suppose, but then your rope would be difficult to retrieve!

In reply to Toerag:

Surely it's simply something else to be aware of rather than not used. Afterall climbing is a risky business and trying to design out any risk is probably going the wrong way, rather than acknowledging some risk and making people look out for them.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I think it probably comes from a "be aware of item which might get caught, suck a long slings and prusiks" rule which has been taken to mean anything at all on a harness.

This particular wall seems to have a couple of over zealous watchers.

Their autobelays are in an area which must be "fenced" off to use them, preventing people using two other lines while they are in use. It's not enough to simply have a warning on the floor.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Agreed. However misjudging has happened (in fact people have taken a fall when being lowered when an unknotted rope has run through the belay device). One solution, though time consuming, would be to ab down and reascend by climbing or prusiking with another rope.

 

In reply to oldie:

But this only happens if the team *didn't* figure out in advance that their rope was too short. How is having a belay device on his/her harness going to help the plummeting climber?

Even if you do notice at the anchor that you've used more than half your rope, there are lots of better solutions than abbing off on a single rope.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I  agree with all that, as you say there are other ways to deal with the situation....I was only suggesting using the plate for abbing (not protecting). I suppose one situation where it would be useful would be if the belayer was injured and possibly unconscious due to being struck by loose rock when the climber might be able to get down easily and quickly. The plate is probably only about the weight of a quickdraw. 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

I wonder where the wall would stand if they refused to allow a customer to use the safety equipment that person considered appropriate, and they subsequently suffered a head injury? 

In reply to Howard J:

Couldn't the customer choose not to climb?

In reply to Neil Williams:

In some places in the states the local ethic is to get to the top of a bolted route, thread a rope and ab (rap) off to avoid wear on the fixed anchors! An ab device could be useful for that!

In reply to oldie:

If I was worried about weight, I'd be think of losing a few pounds, rather than leaving gear behind.

In reply to AlanLittle:

A couple of the name change routes on Kalymnos could cause this problem. On one crag two routes had their names switched, one a 30m route, the other an almost 40m route. If people have read the guide and then gone with the names on the rock they could have ended in a serious situation. There are ways out of the situation, but it should be remembered that, without a knot in the dead end of the rope the knowledge of how to escape not enough rope may be purely academic!

(We bough the addendum type guide locally and compared the routes, their descriptions and their names as a result of the long thread on here, but there were others who didn't know about the vindictive messing around and who were starting up the 40m route on a 70m rope!

Shit happens!

In reply to Alun:

I did almost exactly what you are describing here as well, got a nasty rope burn on the back of my leg and my head came within inches of the metal reinforced corner of an arête.  Could have been very nasty and I had no helmet on. 

In reply to elliot.baker:

Sorry, are you saying, you almost banged your helmeted head, and if you hadn't had a helmet on it could have been very nasty? It seems like you could have banged your unhelmeted head.

In reply to Howard J:

I wondered that too... I wonder if OP asked wall to give them that direction in writing, whether they might reconsider?  Certainly unusual to toprope indoors helmeted as an adult, but I stand by his choice if he wishes to - it's not as if a modern climbing helmet is heavy or unwieldy or uncomfy 

In reply to BrendanO:

I agree this seems bizarre.  What if he had some kind of condition that rendered him more likely to have serious complications from a bang to the head?  I would want to wear one if that were the case, and I'd be quite cross if a wall said no for what are utterly spurious reasons.  (I would however consider autobelays to be off the menu).