UKC

It's looking like my late night/early morning socially distanced climbing wall sessions are about to cease.  Following a summer largely off climbing I've spent a couple of months training hard on the Depot's circuit board, completing  / working fingery circuits in the F6c-F7a range.  During a session (no longer than an hour) I warm up then  do/try progressively harder circuits / sections until finger failure.  My 60+ year old fingers then generally need 3 days or so to stop being sore and recover before my next session.  I've found this approach very effective in improving finger strength and stamina.  I particularly enjoy long vertical or gently overhanging fingery trad or sport pitches and for me circuit board training seems very good for this.

In the past I've never had the attention span to use my home fingerboard, but now  with walls likely to close I'm psyched to keep and build on the gains I've made, with an eye on some longstanding trad and sport ambitions when/if allowed out in the summer.

It's easy to get overwhelmed by the amount of fingerboard training information out there so I'd like to keep it simple.  Based on the above which would be best for me to focus on; repeaters or max hangs?

Thanks

Dave MacLeod will tell you long term Max hangs is the way forward.

My gut feeling says that repeater are a less harsh introduction to the fingerboard.

Ava Lopez suggests, whatever you decide, change to something else every six weeks or so.

You’ll see good gains with any half decent regimen initially, so in it probably doesn’t matter which you chose to start with, so long as you actually stick with it for a bit.

I'm a bit younger and similar standard. I only started finger boarding during first lock down.  I have been happy with my progress as a result this year. Three weeks of max hangs produced significant progress, then plateaued for week, rest week, then a couple of weeks of repeaters. During the easing of restrictions when I could climb I was initially pleased and made progress. So at the start of the second lock down I was a little surprised my max hangs were significantly less than they were. Four weeks of max. hangs have improved my previous PB and I now seem to take less time to recover. So I suppose I'm suggesting do 4 weeks of max. hangs and then have  a weeks rest, but it might be worth doing something different for a few weeks after that.

I'd agree with JLS that repeaters are a great introduction to fingerboarding and you're likely to see gains in both strength and endurance from them, especially as somebody new to fingerboarding. Check out the sessions on the Beastmaker app, which are about as simple as it gets.

That being said, Max Hangs session intensity is based on your current ability, usually 85%-95% of your absolute max, and Eva Lopez's research also showed that Max Hangs produce significantly greater strength gains than repeaters in a 8 week period. (She actually used a combo of Max Added Weight and Minimum Edge hangs). With this in mind, there's no reason you couldn't start with Max Hangs straight away. 

The key is of course a little structure and consistency. I'd probably start with a period of Max Hangs to build some finger strength for 6-8 weeks, and then build in more Repeater work as you get closer to outdoor climbing season with a little maintenance on the strength side of things. One of my clients has been doing Max Hangs for 5 weeks (among some other structured training) as part of the programme I gave him. He started off needing to subtract 13kg to hang from a 20mm edge. Now he can hang at bodyweight! (Edit: That's a 16% increase for him)

I'm not saying that this will happen for everyone, but Eva Lopez's research specifically looked at Max Hangs followed by Repeaters (she calls them Int Hangs) over an 8 week period.

That group showed a lower % strength increase than the group who only did Max Hangs, and the group who only did Repeaters. 

In her discussion, she suggests that changing to a lower stimulus for weeks 4-8 could have caused the drop. 

http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2018/03/maximal-hangs-intermittent-hangs.h...

I would not claim to be any kind of expert Kevin, but I do have similarly aged (soon to be 66yo) fingers. This year was the first I have really taken advantage of my Beastmaker (2000) but I found that a mixture of max hangs and repeaters gave visible improvements, at least on the fingerboard! The max hangs tend to trash your fingers, the repeaters your forearms which helps with damage control. I made up my own 'max hang' routines on the Beastmaker app (10 sec on, 30 sec off, 6 reps, 4 sets with different grips, bodyweight) based on Dave Macleod's video, and used the Crimpd endurance ones for the repeaters (e.g. 7 sec on, 3 sec off, 6 reps, 10 sets, 1 min rest, 40% max intensity). I have not really done enough outside to plot a real trajectory, but was pleased with the apparent improvements on my occasional wall trip before Xmas. But the routes had been reset, so maybe they were all soft! Good luck with the training. Ray.

Having recently gotten very into hangboarding myself during lockdown(s), I would say the most important thing is taking it slow at first, because whereas actual climbing puts you and your fingers in a variety of positions, hangboarding stresses your fingers and (more noticeably for me personally) shoulders in pretty much the same position every time, which can more easily lead to overuse injuries. I think that repeaters will generally be less stress for the uninitiated, and will probably more closely replicate your previous training. I highly recommend checking out the Lattice Training channel on YouTube — they have some great videos on specifically how to adapt your training for home setups during lockdown (including very simple tweaks like putting a foot on a chair while hangboarding for more endurance-focused repeaters). And their Crimpd app has good structured exercises for various training goals. 

Focus on quality not quantity. You'll recover more quickly from low volume training so you'll be able to do it more frequently. This would tend to favour max hangs as repeaters tend to focus on getting pumped over repeated sets.

Perhaps worth looking into overcoming isometrics too. Very simple, don't require weights (unless you can one arm hang on a small edge), and tends towards very low volume.

TL,DR do both. I'm 52, long climbing history. No great shakes. Making improvement! 

I've always dabbled with hang-boarding over the years following the principles of the time. At the end of 2019 I thought I'd put some more structure into it so started following a slight tweak of Eric Horst's 4-3-2-1 week workouts mixed with some Crimpd app stuff.

Basically I do three weeks max hangs, then two week repeaters, followed by a week off. I repeat this again to equal one block. After one block I re-test using 2 rep max principles and timed loads as per the Crimpd app.

This is alongside more general climbing exercises like pull ups etc with more shoulder work then I used to. The work I do for my shoulders, I believe based on my numbers and training log, has led to much better training effect and I've managed to stay injury free for this training period. Certainly Horst believes shoulder work is often neglected.

The mass I use (either additional or deducted) is based on the Crimpd app which I've now put in a spreadsheet as a formula.

The fact it has numbers that give me a metric to measure, and that each block is changed before it gets boring has meant I've maintained it throughout the year. Due to lots of things including covid, my climbing targets aren't really targets but as a general conditioning regime it's been great and given me an insight in to how I could adapt it for specific goals. 

During lockdown 1 I started using my beastmaker properly for the first time, used a variety of apps but most of the stuff I did was repeater based.

For Lockdown 2 I wanted to take it to the next level and do something a bit more regimented and structured (I figured the more structure and organised the training the better gains I'd see) so sent off to Neil Gresham for one of his 4-6 week lockdown training plans.

For a relatively low cost he put together a really great plan, I'll not give details as I'm not sure he'd like that but, rest assured there's a fair amount of variation in what the types of exercises are and the (i.e. it's not just mainly repeaters or max hangs) and there's loads of accompanying exercises and info.

At the start of lockdown 1 I could just about hang on the 20mm for a couple of seconds, right now I'm doing pull ups on the 15s, so I've made a lot of progress.

So yeah, I'd advise asking for some professional advice.  It works! 

I'd say repeaters are more aimed at endurance and max-hangs for strength. Dave M reckons climbing is better for endurance so reckons go for max-strength.

Of course it will also depend on what other training you're doing. Are you doing pull ups on the fingerboard as well?

In terms of boredom if you've got a timer (there are online ones or get an app for a mobile device) just set that, put some music on and in 30 or 40 mins you're done.

Horst (and I think Dave M) say that for time limited people max hangs give you the most bang for your buck. Also that the stronger your fingers are the less endurance you need as you can rest on smaller holds.  And also that it is harder and takes longer to gain overall strength than endurance which can be gained in a matter of weeks. 

Thinking back to old skool it's essentially what Moon meant when he said "when 6c feels like a rest", and what Jerry meant with "power is everything". 

There are many ways to skin a cat, as I am sure you have discovered for yourself by looking at the ammount of information out there. There are many many variations on the theme by the looks of it and in my opinion, ALOT of that is noise at the level of climbing that we mere mortals climb at. I'd say the fact that you are doing it at all will probably yield the bulk of the benefits, with the remainder being icing on the cake so to say.

That being said, I cycle between repeaters and max hangs every 10 sessions as one trains recruitment and the other absolute strength. Having a bit of variety is also quite nice when the activity itself is so boring and I've noticed some jumps between blocks, which is a bit of a motivation.

My opinion is just doing anything will yield significant benefit and as long as you're doing that, then you are likely to get something out of it. In time you'll work out something that works for you.

Is that correct? I think repeaters are good for hypertrophy, and max hangs are good for recruitment. So to get max strength you could in theory cycle between both. A larger, better recruited muscle would be stronger. Obviously we're talking strength to weight, but the forearm flexors are small so a benefit would usually be found through hypertrophy.

Recruitment gains tail off after a few sessions but Max hangs gains can continue for an extended period of time which means that hypertrophy is occurring. 
 
Personally I don’t see the point of repeaters unless that is your only option to train endurance. As Moffatt says strength gains also benefit your endurance by making the moves easier but endurance gains won’t make hard moves easier.

But isn't the point that at the moment it probably is the only option!

I'm sure hypertrophy does occur using max hangs, but do repeaters give better hypertrophy? For other training, if you want to bulk up, isn't moderate load/higher reps better than max load/low reps? Sure I've seen training vids giving this advice.

Yes unless you have some type of board or foot-on campus set up

Gonna be a long post!

I'm 61 and was basically at the same stage as you in March when the first lockdown came into effect here (Berlin). I built a basic board (edge widths of 40, 30 and 20mm, all with  additional sloper sections, so 6 different hold types. Since then I also use small 15mm strips of wood on the 30mm edge, giving me additional 15mm straight and sloper holds).

I'd been reading Dave McCleoud, so I went for the max hangs. The first test gave max holding times (no additional weight, 4 fingers, open hand) between 6 and 20+ sec, so I took the 4 values between 10 and 15 sec and did hangs of 80% of these values, with 2 min rest in between. So a set was around 6½ min; I gave myself 3 min between sets.

I was scared about overdoing it, so I stuck to every 5 days. In the first session I couldn't quite complete 3 sets; after 2 weeks I was doing 4, and after a month 5. I did 5 sets for another couple of weeks, then gave myself a rest for 10 days before doing another max test. The results were very encouraging: all the max hang times were up by 45-70%.

I worked out a new set of 5 hangs, adding 10 pullups on the big steep slopers at the end of each, and again the number of successfully completed sets rose within 6 weeks from < 3 to 5+. Then the lockdown was lifted, and I spent June-October climbing 3-4 times a week. I stopped hangboarding completely, not being willing to give up a day's climbing for a board session. The benefits of the hangboarding were immediately obvious, and I found myself doing stuff on which I'd really struggled/had no chance in February. The only strength training which I incorporated into the climbing sessions was 4x4 on lead for strength endurance (it helped!) 

When the second lockdown started in November I did a test and found that I was at around the same level as I had been when I'd stopped the hangboarding. Since then I've continued to improve; in April I was doing my hangs on 30 and 20mm edges, now I'm on 20 and 15mm edges with added 7kg in a rucksack. The curve's obviously going to flatten, but since Dave McCleoud writes of thinking about improvement over years rather than months I'm very happy with the way it's gone so far.

The only problem I've had has been the onset of twinges/pain on the outsides of my elbows. I got rid of this by regularly exercising the antagonist muscles (dumbbells held palm down and lifted from the wrist, the weight being chosen so that I could comfortably manage 4x20 reps, with the rest between sets being the time it took for the other hand to do its reps).

As several have mentioned here, these intensive hangs haven't been building muscle, simply improving the performance of what was already there. So I'm planning on switching to a few weeks of extensive hanging sometime soon. As someone also mentioned: half the fun is tweaking your training to fit your capability, while still attempting to get the maximum results (without getting injured!). In this sense - I wish you fun and success! 

God, I hate repeaters for endurance it is my least favourite exercise, even more than stretching. I'm willing to take any advice if it relieves me of doing them. I've never noticed any real benefit from them that I couldn't get more joyfully in 2 weeks of going to a climbing wall (whereas the hateful stretches have clear and  obvious benefit and the added delight of allowing me to make moves that confound my climbing partners who don't stretch).

So I'm happy to believe this, back it up with conformation bias and consign repeaters for endurance to history.

Please, no one contradict this!

PS if someone know a way to get stretchy without stretching that would make my training year (and no cod liver oil doesn't work). 

Thank you so much for all of the detailed, informative and well considered responses.

It's clear that max hangs is the way to go for me, with plenty of rest 4 or 5 days between sessions

I still need to consider whether to increase loading by using smaller edges/holds or to carry more weight on a consistent edge size.  I'm minded to go for the latter at first in order to reduce possibly of injury by spreading the load, but as many have righty said some experimentation is good in order to find what suits me best.

Thanks again

WYTIWYG (What You Train Is What You Get). 

Max. hangs will improve your ability to make a single very high intensity effort (finger strength).

Repeaters will get you better at repeated high-ish intensity efforts for about a minute (power endurance). 

A further option is to do repeated moderate intensity efforts for two or three minutes - a kind of 'long repeaters'. This needs some weight taking off your arms using a counterbalance or feet on something (scales, elastic bands, a chair). This will improve your ability to keep going for 2-3 minutes at a time. 

The last is probably most similar physiologically to what you have been doing with the circuits and possibly most applicable to trad. It is very repetitive so mind-numbingly boring.

There is likely to be some carry-over from one style of training to another, especially when you first start. If you're new to fingerboarding, repeaters will likely give you a strength as well as power-endurance boost and vice versa for max. hangs. Additionally, different people will respond differently to the same exercise. I would suggest at least two full days of rest after each session and - obviously - build up slowly. 

As others have said, the most important things are to stick with it and avoid injuring yourself. As you become more familiar with fingerboarding you'll work out what you get the greatest benefit from. 

I'm 63. Had Been doing the dave mac fingerboard thing about once a week plus other climbing. Then late Oct Bought a plan of gresham.

Really worth the money IMHO. First I was completely gobsmacked by the volume and intensity expected. I thought my body just wouldn't be able to take it. And that is the base phase. I have thrived on it, so well judged for me. Chronic aches and pains have disappeared and my finger strength and pull up strength have exploded. All in the 8 weeks it took to complete 6 week plan. It's been a total blast, a real adventure into what my body will take. 

Repeaters or max hang? Both it would appear. But what about the shoulder stability, core to be able to use those fingers. Get a plan. 

I find repeaters really hard and progress slow. But I reckon they let you hold on for longer. Just being in that head space of wilting forarms and dealing with it has to be good.