UKC

Hi y'all, over the past year, since I dropped the membership for the "regular gym" for lack of time to dedicate to both climbing and regular gym, I have seen an increase (albeit not that bad) in my fat mass. Now, over the course of the year it has come down to a 1/1.5kg increase, so nothing too bad, but I'd like to go back where I was and a bit further down as I felt a bit better and looked a lot better. I know that the only thing that was dropped was my 2x week 45 minutes on the cross-trainer machine (at a moderate pace).

I'm not a big cardio fan (even running on the treadmill breaks my will after less than 5 minutes, while stationary bike I can push through only if I have something to watch... running outside/cycling outside does not strike me either) so was wondering if any of the many activities one can do at a bouldering center, on the wall, would hit the sweet spot of fat-burning heart rate? I literally don't have much space in that gym (i bought a rope to skip with for 30 odd minutes, I was being told off after 5-6 jumps because there's no space for it), but it has a good variety of steep walls (so maybe 4x4s, 2-3 grades below my flash, high speed) and a couple of traverses/circuits (so maybe doing intervals on them? pick a hard-ish grade, do 1 lap, rest for the same amount of time, repeat for 1hr?)

I have no idea what exercise/training/activities I can do on the wall that would hit that spot of hearth rate that would be considered as close as possible to cardio, so any help would be appreciated (I'm just trying to avoid having to go out for a run 3 times a week at 6 am, because I know I would not enjoy it)

Laps. on a toprope or bouldering pick something easy and see how many laps you can do without stopping until you fall off. don't climb up and lower down, climb down as well as up. Or wear a weight vest to make everything harder.

Fat burning/weight loss is pure calories in < calories out. Calories out = work done. 'Work' means moving a mass or changing a temperature. You will burn the same amount of calories walking a mile as running it unless walking and running are different efficiencies. You will burn more calories walking a mile carrying a load than doing it unencumbered. So to increase your calorie output you either move further, or move a heavier weight the same distance, or alter the way you move to reduce your efficiency. Or all of those.

Thanks for this, it does really help! Laps on those bouldering traverses would do the trick then, which is excellent enough for me! I could load, I guess, a backpack with 5-10 extra kgs or buy ankle straps and traverse around with those.

Now question, does it also work if I don't sweat? I will sweat during hotter summer months, but during winter I rarely do, regardless of the intensity of work (most evenings nowadays I would not even take my hoodie off and still do high-intensity work feeling just about warm)

Or eat fewer calories. 

"Or eat fewer calories"...or (take cover) fewer carbs and / or time restricted eating periods (intermittent fasting)

The reason those diets work are because you're doing the same thing. Limiting calories in. Whatever way you chose to do it is up to you. 

I tried and it got me below my "target weight", but I was moody and fatigued constantly. I'm already keeping my daily intake below the recommended one because of my job/lifestyle (despite the fact that I train 4 x week and relocate everywhere either by bike or walking, I still have a sedentary desk job), so cutting them even more wouldn't work for more training.

I'll start doing more and more laps on the traverse board adding some weights on my back and making sure I move fast and try to spend as much time as I can on the wall

I think you're going to struggle burning many calories just climbing. It's too limited by small muscle groups (arms, shoulders, core) whereas to burn calories you really need to work the big muscle groups over a sustained period. And yes, the fact that you're not sweating much is the clue that you're not burning many calories. How about running or cycling to/from the climbing wall? At least that provides some obvious 'purpose' which might mitigate the boredom. Join a running club? Company helps.

Take your lunch break and go for an hour walk. That’s ~200 kcal burned off each day. ~4000 kcal per month and perhaps infinitely more sustainable than trying to cram more climbing into a busy climbing session or denying yourself food.

Any reason you can't skip at home?

As far as I understand the science, there isn't one. Yes, at a lower level of intensity, a greater percentage of the fuel you're burning will come from stored fat rather than stored glycogen -- but at a higher level of intensity, you'll burn more calories overall.

If steady-state cardio makes you squirrelly with boredom, maybe you'd find some sort of high-intensity interval training more tolerable?

I loathe and abjure all forms of jogging, running, etc., but 100 kettlebell swings in 10 minutes, that I can do. Don't know if it's having any effect on my body fat (as I'm not trying to lose any), but it's noticeably improved my cardiovascular fitness when it comes to things like slogging up a hill carrying a track rack and rope, which I was previously pathetic at.

Generally, from what I've read, climbing itself is not going to be great cardio, because your forearms (strength or local aerobic metabolism) are always going to be the limiting factor, and that's going to shut things down before your heart and lungs start really having to work; you're not working enough large muscle groups (like your legs) hard enough to make that demand.

Honourable exception for offwidths, in which it is possible to make enough of your body go anaerobic at once that you arrive at the top feeling like you're going to throw up your lungs. Especially if you're both bad at offwidths and stubborn, as I am. I've made jokes about how it should be the next CrossFit, but somehow I don't think it's going to take off.

I always thought running consumed more energy than walking because you are also lifting your body up and down with each stride. That's why it feels harder?

Did you steadily increase carb intake during training once you'd hit target weight? And generally increase overall intake steadily? Staying in a deficit constantly will just make for poor gains and poor health. 

yeah, I increased it "quite a lot" (replacing morning yogurt/banana with oatmeal/banana for instance, and having a big carby post-training dinner... I say big, quite a lot etc, but I am not one that eats much in volume anyway, I do feel full fairly soon usually with small-ish quantities of food)

I think there is now evidence that running does burn slightly more but not much.

Google "one mile walk vs one mile run"

Yes I see what you mean. So if your objective is to lose weight (as opposed to improving aerobic fitness) it will be far more pleasant to just walk and therefore more likely that you'll keep it up. Unless you're one of those strange people who actually like running but they aren't usually trying to lose weight!

No, low carb diets tend to increase calorie intake due to very high fat content, but still result in weight and fat loss from the low insulin and improved fat burning (as per the OP original question) that result

I did as I found this interesting - but the numbers here seem confusing. 

https://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/fitness/walking-vs-running-which-on... 

Based on those (obviously single source etc) it would imply that running a mile versus walking it burns broadly the same amount of calories assuming you can sustain a 5mph walking pace - which would also be a pretty slow run. 

However, as soon as you start increasing the speed of the run the caloric consumption goes up considerably and I would also argue that the cardiovascular benefits of actual running (i.e. hard work but manageable aerobic exercise with sweating etc) are far more valuable to most climbers than simply walking.

In my experience its all moot as to which is better per mile; I don't decide to walk or run for a certain distance, but rather for a certain duration.

If I go for a 30 min run over lunch i'll burn much more than I would if I went for a half hour walk, as i'll go further when running.

Yeah for sure that was pretty much what I was getting at to be honest. :-D 

Yeah for sure that was pretty much what I was getting at to be honest. :-D 

Sprint intervals, time efficient not to boring and very effective (just ensure your fit enough to sprint it may take you a while to get there)

I also have a set of weights in the kitchen so have some 20 min routines I do while food is cooking.

the whole fat burning thing is a bit of a con by gyms, they know that most people might pay lip service to no pain no gain but don’t want it in reality so they created the “fat burning zone” a comfortable pace that people could read a magazine or whatch mtv too, not to off putting and kept the gym subscriptions up.

haha, it sadly does make sense I mentioned that "zone" just because I have read several articles mentioning some sweet heart rate range that is more beneficial for fat loss rather than aerobic/muscular capacity and endurance, and normally (from my personal experience, at least) is a combination of a decent pace and moderate resistance. I do agree on the fat/protein combined with low carbs eating habits, low sugar and low insulin spikes have a much more visible effect on fat loss

No bread, just cutting this out makes a huge difference.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Basic calorie restricted diets almost always fail beyond over anything more than the short term.

I'd say aim for a high intensity interval training (HIIT) style work out. Do routes that are difficult enough to get your heart rate up really high and have you gasping for breath.

Generally you want very steep, overhanging routes. Steep routes tend use a wider range of bigger muscle groups that will elicit a bigger cardio response. And you want to repeat with brief intervals to keep your heart rate and breathing really high for 15 or 20 mins. So you'll need a willing belayer. You'll want to have the route/s fairly wired so you don't fail because you cock up the moves. Climbing fast will help avoid forearm failure (a small muscle group) and increase the cardio effect by maximizing the effort required of the bigger muscles.

You could also do the same with boulder problems, repeating several steep problems in a row without rest though it could be tricky if the wall is busy.

Edit: I add if you can't find a route that's just right you can always make up your own using existing holds on a steep part of the wall.