UKC

I've worked around the South West of England as a nurse in Emergency Depts, mainly Bristol and Somerset, for nearly 30yrs. In that time I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of injuries I've seen from climbing walls. I've seen a few from outdoor bouldering and a couple from trad climbing. (Admittedly the trad climbing ones were pretty bad though). My other thought was that people just don't report how they acquired the injury but I'm not sure why.

Generally my non climbing colleagues see climbing as "dangerous" and "risky" however they're willing to go to the local trampoline centres (injury count off the scale - can't even count numbers of patients on an almost daily basis) with their children.

Why is it then that people see climbing as risky (I'm thinking more of indoor climbing here) but then go off and do something that has greater risks happily...?

In reply to Scoobied64:

I see this at school. In twenty years of running climbing clubs for kids I've never taken one to hospital... However the sports department take kids on a weekly basis to A&E. If I broke one kid on a climbing wall I'd be hung out to dry but it's ok if it's mainstream sport to break kids every day!

In reply to Scoobied64:

Lack of knowledge? They see the occasional news story or you tube clip of Alex honold and think that's what climbing is about.

Or they see the Hollywood films where harness buckles come undone under load or ropes Frey/snap.

Indoor climbing when done properly must be one of the safest sports, but if you haven't done it before trusting your safety to a rope and harness is a scary and unatural thing to do. Even if you are probably at more risk of a nasty injury playing rugby or going mountain biking.

In reply to JIMBO:

I've worked in places where the local schools effectively "save up" their rugby players till they have a batch worth sending in...

In reply to mountain.martin:

"Indoor climbing when done properly must be one of the safest sports, but if you haven't done it before trusting your safety to a rope and harness is a scary and unnatural thing to do. Even if you are probably at more risk of a nasty injury playing rugby or going mountain biking."

This is pretty much how I feel - per number of participants the percentage of injuries in climbing seems pretty low vs perceived risk of injury

In reply to Scoobied64:

I think it's because the hazard is very obviously apparent and quite severe even though the risk is low. It takes a bit more knowledge to realise that it's actually lowish risk.

Something like skiing is the other way round, it's actually quite risky but the hazards aren't obvious to the uninitiated so doesn't have the reputation for danger.

In reply to Scoobied64:
Interesting, I used to tell folk that climbing wasn’t dangerous based on pretty much the pattern you describe. However after surviving (just) a 12m fall (my fault) at my local wall and having time to think it all through I realise it is actually very dangerous but the safety systems usually keep us safe if you get my drift. While languishing in my body brace and neck collar I counted all the folk I had climbed with or knew of who had significant back injuries and reached 30 pretty quickly though 3 or 4 were only loosely climbing. When I started into broken bones I gave up counting at my own 10 and over 40 friends. At the most morbid level 5 folk I’ve climbed with died climbing. Granted these have all been outside and only my own accident was indoors. Now I have been climbing for over 43 years but I’m not getting the sense of a safe sport. Having said that I love it and got back to it after my accident and there’s are plenty other risky sports out there. And there are plenty of things like the trampolining that have horrendous attrition rates which I would not go near. Certainly I don’t tell folk that climbing is not risky, I just put it in context and stress how to make it safe. And I do cite other risky activities like trampolines, driving cars and so on.

In reply to Scoobied64:

Same reason people are scared of nuclear power but not of coal or diesel engines. People under-rate familiar dangers and over-rate unfamiliar ones.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

Blimey, obviously one small mistake (or outdoors one bit of bad luck) can lead to a very bad injury or death. But that is possible in rugby or mountain biking.

Being diligent and vigilant with all rope work is vital, but I realise I'm just as capable of a lapse of concentration as anyone else.

I'm not sure how typical your reported attrition rate is from rock climbing. In over 30 years my only injury is a sprained ankle, and of the 10's of people I have climbed with i'm not aware of any broken bones or anything worse.

In reply to Scoobied64:

I sometimes think, as an interesting distraction, how the risk perception of climbing indoors would change if you were to put a busy road inside the centre between reception and the wall. Pay to get in, show that you can tie a suitable knot, "Fine, Sir, off you go, mind the 38 tonner to your right"....

In reply to Scoobied64:

Ah ‘risk’.

In risk assessment terms (and apologies if you know all this) the risk/probability element in an activity (climbing in this example) can be confused with hazards associated with the activity.

Eg. hazard is fall from height. Risk is high (inexperienced climber, weak, drunk, whatever) or Risk is low (strong climber, experienced, not drunk etc.

However in both cases the hazard remains the same (fall from height)

Non climbers will figure (based on their lack of experience) that climbers are likely to fall (and therefore hurt themselves) because they (the non climber) is unaware of the control measures (experience, strength, training or lack of etc) which increase/reduce the risk/likelihood of a fall (and subsequent injury).

Another element of course is the severity of the injury. In football it may be lots of sprains, brocken nails, split ends etc however a climbing injury could ‘likely’ be more severe/fatal.

In reply to Scoobied64:

>> Why is it then that people see climbing as risky (I'm thinking more of indoor climbing here) but then go off and do something that has greater risks happily . . .

. . . I suppose because they don't know enough about climbing, but are aware that some people see climbing as an "extreme" sport and that's how it is often presented. I've fallen a few times over the years, and broken my back once. I also solo easier routes, but I cannot accept that climbing is inherently dangerous - not if one is aware of the dangers. I saw a consultant 3 years ago about a hip replacement. He advised me to wait a while (which I did) but also said I would not be able to climb again. As a non-climber he would have been unable to assess the risks, but probably he accepted the general view that climbing is risky, and the more so with a new artificial hip and its attendant risk of dislocation . However a recent review of the limited research on sports people returning to their sports after such an operation seems to show that fit folk with strong abductors are probably less likely to dislocate even when returning to such as judo (which I would consider as pretty extreme)

It has been suggested that sports not practiced by consultants may well be seen as riskier than sports that they themselves take part in (if any) Due to cancellation my consultant who gave me my new hip 5 weeks ago (he'd done a little indoor climbing) is not the one who first assessed me (they know each other well) I'm looking forward to her advice on what I should or shouldn't do as regards climbing when I have my review next week!

In reply to Scoobied64:


Credit where credit is due - well done the staff and mangement of climbing walls!

In reply to Scoobied64:

The issue as I see it, is risk X severity. In climbing the risk is low, severity is high. Trampoline however, risk is high, severity lowish.

Probably the same reason people smoke and speed. It won’t happen to them!

In reply to Scoobied64:
I’ve been climbing for about 40 years. I’ve had one serious accident. That was down to lack of experience, stupidity on my part.
I was in Oswestry othopedic hospital for three weeks. I broke my heal and had a spinal injury but not too serious.
The next ward was a spinal ward. In the three weeks I was in hospital five very serious spinal cases came in. Four as a result of trampoline accidents and one from a building site.
Thankfully Health and safety has improved a lot since then.
Several members of staff comment on my injury. Never seen a climbing injury before. But they had all seen trampoline related accidents.

Keep climbing and stay safe

In reply to PaulTanton:

Just to echo what you're saying: I believe that if you can get through your first, dangerous youthful years of climbing, you're then very unlikely to have a serious climbing accident unless you lose concentration. All about staying safe.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That’s about it. Complacency is a dangerous thing. I heard about an abseiling accident at Tremadog a few years ago. Two guys busy talking. Forgot to check something.
Back to the original thread. Climbing generally gets a bad safety rap from people who don’t understand it, non climbers.
Big dramatic accidents that involve helicopters make headlines in the press.

In reply to Scoobied64:
I broke my back at an indoor climbing wall. In the spinal ward during some night time banter with the nurses they told me that the BIGGEST reasons they see people with spinal injuries are
horse riding
motorbike (and car) accidents
and...
Wait for it
People falling backwards off bar stools
People falling off loft ladders at Christmas.

Though I wasn’t the first climbing spinal injury they’d seen either

In reply to Scoobied64:

There are undoubtedly greater risks, however the count of accidents which arrive at A & E is NOT representative of climbing wall accidents which do not merit Emergency status. Many climbers suffer with tendon probs after artificial wall activity.

In reply to Cheryl:

Its to he hoped that the walls have all wised up to eliminate back risks - but there are a sad frequency of tales of those who fall between the mats - or with awkward orientation. The same also applies to bouldering. I feel averagley safer on a rope with an attentive belay.

In reply to Scoobied64:

"My other thought was that people just don't report how they acquired the injury but I'm not sure why."

Pride, stubborn and probably more inclined to do self assessment.?

And of course there is certainly a preference to discussing their injury on UKC first before seeing a professional

But to be fair if you had worked in A&E in Gwynedd, you would have seen a lot more.

In reply to ukb & bmc shark:

“Credit where credit is due - well done the staff and mangement of climbing walls!“

Actually that’s a fair point - I too would like to congratulate my local walls staff for keeping me safe. As well as reducing my potential workload!

In reply to Ffat Boi:

That’s true - I just figured with Avon and Cheddar and wye valley there’d be more

In reply to LeeWood:


I get that the minor injuries may not turn up at ED from climbing and so what I’m seeing isn’t representative of overall injury profiles. It’s just the sign over the door saying EMERGENCY doesn’t deter anyone else from coming in...

In reply to Scoobied64:


But are they thinking of indoor climbing?

I imagine most people's image of climbing is on huge outdoor cliffs where a mistake is likely to result in certain death.

In reply to Scoobied64:

I live in North Wales and as such my local hospital gets all the helicopter patients straight from Snowdonia. When I broke my heel the doctor laughed and said they call it (Snowdonia) the home of injuries. Guess they see more patients from there.

One of the nurses on my first visit was a climber. Nice to have an understanding view when feeling like an idiot in a&e.

In reply to Cheryl:

I had to attend A&E after a minor bouldering accident at what I think is London’s busiest climbing wall. The staff at the nearest hospital were just about aware of the name of the place but certainly didn’t give the impression they were snowed under with climbing injuries. I was politely stuck together again and sent on my way (and the wall staff were very nice to me too).

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


True. How many people who are scared of flying drive to and from the airport, and everywhere else, without giving it a thought? Yet you are far more likely to die in a motoring accident than in a plane crash.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

There are distortions in climbing participation that need discussing alongside most of your observations. Some types of climbing are very risky indeed; most people adventure climbing for decades know several people who have died climbing and many with broken bones but in terms of participation most of those deaths and accidents will be in the riskier climbing games especially himalayan or alpine. If you know much fewer adventure climbers and just climb indoors you might not be aware of any deaths or serious injuries (yet as you say, they do happen and usually down to complacency and/or lack of concentration). Climbers can have a significant longevity to their participation compared to some other mass participation sports: I know many in their 3rd decade and some in their 6th.

In reply to Scoobied64:

I think the reason climbing is seen as a risky/dangerous sport, is not necessarily based on the frequency of accidents, but the consiquences and outcomes of such accidents.

Falling off a trampoline and breaking your back is seen as terribly unlucky and inprobable. Falling off a climb and breaking your back is seen as an inherent risk and highly probable.

It also depends on what type of climbing we're talking about? There's a world of difference between indoor and alpine.

Personally speaking, in over 4 decades of climbing, I've lost far too many friends (and we're talking good, highly experienced climbers here) to class the risk as 'perceived'.

In reply to JIMBO:


To be honest I think that is quite right that if you break a kid climbing you should be hung out to dry.

For someone to break climbing something has gone wrong, with the correct gear correctly set and correctly used no one should get anything more than a bruised ankle because they slipped on the first move before the belaying had a chance to catch them.
If someone falls from a decent hight someone has been negligent.

Its impossible to risk assess out the many injuries that occur when you have a bunch of people running around a field chasing a ball though. 2 people colliding and getting hurt isn't negligence, it's a foreseeable concequense of ball depots.

In reply to Dax H:

You don't boulder much?

In reply to JIMBO:

Nope, is taking kids who can and will fall bouldering a good idea?

In reply to Dax H:

Oh yes. I should have said. My accident was a bouldering one. I wasn’t on a rope. I largely agree with the sentiment on this thread btw even though I personally got really unlucky. Though must admit I’ve since heard of many broken backs through climbing/bouldering. Maybe it is just that everyone tells me about them now ????