UKC

Now that the weather's turned I've been getting a lot of sessions in at the wall. I'm successfully flashing 7a and sometimes 7a+, but every time I get on something harder, I find myself so drained and pumped making the top moves after dogging up that I have almost no motivation to work it for the redpoint. I feel like I should be able to redpoint 7b at least, but no luck so far.

It doesn't feel like I'm climbing particularly inefficiently, I'm not spending ages figuring the beta, I just don't seem to be able to hold on long enough to lead them cleanly. Is this a sign I need to be focussing on forearm training? Or is this just a consequence of how indoor climbs work, and that once I get outside again I can work the beta on technical routes and redpoint some harder climbs?

I'm really no expert but it sounds like your tactics are at fault. If you practice the moves, but rest when you start to feel tired, then you could get them all dialed while saving some energy for the repoint. It sounds like what you're doing is getting knackered while attempting to onsight. 

I find it much harder indoors to bring a climb down to my level. Not so many options, often I climb it with pretty good beta the first time, or at least in the first few tries. Outdoors is a totally different story...

If endurance is the problem then 4x4 routes is my go to solution. I seem to respond well to 4-6 sessions (1 per week). Start at 6a but I’d expect you’ll soon been able to manage 16 6b’s. I like to feel I’ve managed the 16th burn by the skin of my teeth but I’m ok with failing on the last burn of each set.

Do you fingerboard? Again 6 repeater sessions (1 per week) would see a lot of Recruitment/ PE gains if you are not a fingerboarder.
 

The other thing with redpointing if you are new to it, is that you need a longer rest between burns than you’d think. Even indoors for an unimportant project think 30min minimum, more like an hour if it’s long, hard and important to you.

I like 4x4s but I do it for trad endurance. Dunno if it would help with indoor redpointing? Surely the best training for indoor redpointing is, err, indoor redpointing?

Loads of things you could do, depending on what you're currently doing in terms of training, and what your goals are besides climbing 7b indoors and how much specific training you'd like to do. 

If you're flashing most 7a-7a+s, then it's hard to believe you can't redpoint a single 7b, and I suspect your tactics could be letting you down. I would start by breaking down a 7b that you think suits you (don't forget to pick one that isn't going to get reset soon!) into a few sections, and start figuring out each section and trying to link them, and then link those sections together. On top rope at first, then progressing to leading. 

As for training, some 4x4s certainly won't hurt and you'll probably find these help your fitness and ability to recover. I'd also add in some shorter power endurance type sessions (repeaters or bouldering 4x4s), as well as some specific strength stuff (bouldering, max hangs). Keep it simple, but some structure to your training will probably really help. 

4x4s mean different things to different people. 4x4s on boulder problems just below your flash grade - not routes - is sometimes recommended for building power endurance.

I don’t really climb indoors but I do find the climbs very difficult. Indoors it’s generally about power endurance. Routes are 10m long, in the grand scheme of things that’s really short. Also, since all the holds are one colour, it’s generally really easy to sequence (worst case you hand on the rope for 5 seconds, but there’s limited deciphering involved, your options are really narrow). 
 

Personally I’d try and do more bouldering, and maybe linked boulders. That way when you get to some harder moves, high up on the route, you can just keep pulling through. Maybe volume type boulder sessions around your flash grade/quick ticks? I think maybe indoors is pretty basic climbing, the holds are simple, the sequence is lit up, the climbing is often pretty basic, there’s no extra feet you can use (mainly) so it’s just physically hard... 

Then surely the best thing to train trad endurance, is, err, trad?

You don't have to work the whole route in one go. 

You could, for example, have one go dogging and working the first half/two thirds of the route. Then rest/belay your partner as usual and on your next go work the 2nd half of the route. You can get up there by climbing an easier route on the same line, or pulling on the draws, etc etc.

This is also a common tactic for outdoors, where you could pull on draws/clipstick to where you want to work. 

Yes in theory (up to a certain, high level). But also no, because its not practical. 

Simple energy system training lends itself well to indoor training. Obviously you can get good endurance from just trad climbing but it's maybe not the best way, especially in the winter.

I think if it was possible to trad climb with the same level of convenience as indoors, then up to a high level (guess e6 or something) it would be by far the best training for trad climbing. It's pretty obvious isn't it, you're practicing the skills, strengths and endurance you want to build. 

The reason just trad climbing doesn't work well in practice is because most of the time is spent driving, walking, finding routes,  racking up, abbing, belaying, eating a sandwich... 

I agree. The post I was answering said trad endurance, not trad climbing.

Yep, was agreeing.

Back to the OP it'd be interesting to compare the progree of 2 people in that situation, one who spent every session indoor redpointing, the other spent the same time doing other stuff too and see who ticked the 7b first.

I know where my money would be. 

And the same is true for anything, which was my point

Agreed entirely - there was a lot of sarcasm in that post!

I get the feeling that most indoor route setters like to give people something more sustained at the grade than you would find outdoors. In the outdoors, the chances of a route having every move close to the grade would be very slim and so there are more often rests or easier sections to play with. This all depends on the setter of course but most setters would argue whats the point of creating a 6c climb with a couple of 7b cruxs when for training, people would want a 7b to have mostly 7a-7b moves with the odd 6c section.

I'm not an expert by any stretch and climb mostly indoors but it seems logical that indoor routes would be designed in a way that outdoor routes aren't.

If I'm struggling to make progress on an indoor redpoint, I usually find that a spell of power endurance makes a big difference (4x4 boulder problems or working a harder route on a toprope).

After a 4x4 program I find I can shake-out and recover on smaller holds so they very much do help my redpointing. Everyone is different. Levels of effort put in and adaptions realised for that effort will be variable.

Albeit at a lower grade I’m fine finding the long circuit boards at the Depot ideal training for the sort of power endurance training I think you’re looking for

In the OP's case, flashing 7a/+ but wanting to redpoint 7b, it just sounds like it'll just take a couple more goes...

And there you have it. I'm the same, I can't be arsed either.

Depends perhaps on what you mean by "trad endurance". Do you mean he ability to keep going all day, and find the last pitch of a 15 pitcher as easy as the first, then I agree - do more trad.

But if you mean the ability to hang on in there on steep ground for as long as it takes to place that fiddly but essential bit of gear, then you probably need to be training on something harder than your safe on-sight trad grade. Certainly that's the case for me. For me that's always meant fingerboard or indoor wall training at a grade some way beyond the point I would want to push my outdoor trad leading.

Martin

I think trying all out efforts when training indoors is a big mistake. If you push yourself to your absolute limit you'll have to have a long rest before you can climb at the same level again. The cumulative result is that you'll end up doing far less volume by the end of the session.

The best way of training endurance is to do lots of volume. You want to get a bit pumped but also be recovered and ready to climb another route straight after your partner has finished.

If you want to do harder grades then do them with enough rests first so that you don't get completely pumped and build up to a redpoint over several sessions if need be.

Cheers for the thoughts everyone. I think my main takeaways are:

1) Do more endurance training. I'll probably do the same 6b on autobelay 4 times in a row, since the bouldering at my wall is a bit limited.

2) Not worry about linking moves first go and build up slowly to a redpoint attempt.

Definitely part of the problem is that I've just moved to Switzerland, I am meeting lots of new partners, and trying onsights and taking big whippers is much more impressive than having them belay me bolt to bolt.