UKC

So... I've been away from indoor walls for a while, but made a couple of visits recently. In my absence, I see that little plastic tags are springing up everywhere with QR coes on them...

- What's going on? Are people actually using apps to scan and log their climbs?

- And, what do people make of it? Am I just being an old git, or is this inclination to make everything competitive and quantifiable not just an extension of the imperatives of the neoliberal workplace into the pastures of recreation? (Not to mention a form of market/customer management for gyms...)

I don't see how logging climbs is a competitive activity - logbooks have been around forever as a means to remember routes, partners etc. The fact that it's now easier doesn't seem to me to be a bad thing.

As with all these things, if you don't want to use them, just don't use them.

Well, you are the one making the rather absurd assumption that competition is the only possible reason people might feel like keeping track of what they've climbed.

The main difference here is that you can continue to do the thing you want to do IE climb at the wall, without being effected in any way by not using the QR code

Ah, good point! But, you're presuming I have the self-control not to get swept up in the craze!

It's a tracking jobby called Griptonite. Serves a fair few purposes. 

For the customers it gives and indication of which blocs/routes are popular and if they're top end of the grade range. Also allows people to track progress see grade progression etc.

It's probably more important for the wall as it gives them accurate feedback on the setting, what style is popular which parts of the wall are most popular and how best to spread the grades and boulders.

Some walls have teles in the centre so you can view all the info. I guess if indoor climbing is just what you do when the weather is bad it will seem weird and unnecessary, for the other side of the argument that enjoy indoor climbing and have no intention of going out on the rock then it's a great facility for the masses!

Thanks for the explanation! I think those arguments sound reasonable. I'm just a bit wary. A wall I went to said they have a "leaderboard". Seems... counter to what I understood to be the spirit of climbing. I've valued climbing as a place to escape screens and the headache of social media networks! 

Ye 100% and its not something I use personally. Mainly because I can't be arsed with the scanning! 

There's such a surge in indoor climbing right now and the customers that are coming from gyms or other aspects of the leisure industry are wanting something more from their visit to a wall. They probably wont head to Plantation to tick boulders so for them they want a fun, fully interactive experience with a Strava-esque recording system.

"it's a great facility for the masses"

No it's not.  It's a waste of electricity. Honestly I've seen this at a few walls and it's a big flop. Strava for climbing except without anyone being interested or the marginally useful information. I must have seen thousands of people climb thousands of tagged routes by now and not a single person logging them.

Goes in the box "Gimmic: not even less fun than it looks".

I'm with you. My local wall thankfully doesn't do this, but I went to a comp held at Harrowall this past Saturday and I was dismayed that they replaced the previous, and very straightforward to use, vertical life scoring app/paper scorecard alternative with this new Kaya app that is all scanning QR codes or having to hunt through a map/list to find comp problems amongst all the other non-comp problems in the gym (of which their are multiple hundreds).

I gave up in the end, just not fun having to fart about on a phone when a bit of paper and a pen does the job better, especially in a time limited scenario. Outside of a competition setting, I can't see the point of logging problems that are going to be reset anyway. It also makes literally every aspect of climbing un-necessarily competitive. I don't really want another place I'm forced to stare at a screen.

Ps. I'm not an old git (though not that young either). People in their early twenties I was with also didn't seem impressed with the app so I don't think it's a grumpy old man opinion actually.

Whilst it may not be big yet, I think the key word is 'yet'. As the technology moves on, so too will the number of people who are willing to engage with it. Whether or not you choose to is another matter altogether.

On a personal level, I'm not sure that the information you currently get out of the tech that goes alongside this is of much use/relevance to me, as most of the 'data' I want/need whilst I'm training is the number of hangs, the duration of the hangs, and the weight I have attached to me whilst doing them. That said, it'd be useful to get an impression of the grade spread at the wall, and whether or not they're accurate, as that'd help me plan a session when I'm in training mode.

That said, I'm not in training mode at the moment and whenever I do go indoors it's just for fun, so within my current mindset I'd have little or no use for it as I have zero agenda as far as performance is concerned.

Perhaps ironically I continue to use the Logbooks, because climbing routes outdoors tends to mean a whole lot more to me, and still sits firmly within the fun camp.

And do people really want to carry their phone around with them at the wall and leave it lying on the floor with their belay plate and mask at the bottom of every route?

Anyway, I wouldn't know how to scan a QR code even if I wanted to do so.....

Is it OK to log outdoor climbs on UKC but NOT OK to log indoor climbs elsewhere?

They've got it at my local bouldering wall, it's kind of neat but kind of useless for the very reason that I don't want to carry my phone around when I'm climbing, either leaving it on the mat to get trod on or annoyingly in my pocket.

It's a shame because it it can produce stats on the level of climbing you're at and the styles of climbing you are good/bad at which is potentially useful/interesting.

It's a mistake to compare indoor climbing with "real" climbing It would concern me if these things were turning up on Stanage.

Al

But I know both those things perfectly well without gimmicks and stats.

Well me too but I also quite like gimmicks and stats...

I don't think it's an issue of OK or NOT OK. It's an interesting trend that I wanted to encourage reflection on.

Personally, I enjoy logging outdoor climbs because it is a kind of personal electronic diary for me. However, Theo Moore wrote an interesting article about how it can feed negative behaviour: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/climbing_for_the_conditions-13...

Therefore, I thought it interesting to see the idea of data being produced on indoor routes, with users being networked and competitive leaderboards being introduced. I'm not saying whether it's OK or NOT because I think it's kind of inevitable. But, what is the meaning of this tendency?

So was you bothering to type out this shite. You can log routes/problems without the QR codes, which is way easier. Marginally useful maybe, but ultimately if people enjoy them what's the issue? Looking at a tag hardly hinders your indoor session (which is seemingly spent people watching rather than actually climbing, but whatever makes you happy I guess).

Climbing has always seemed to have some sort of weird hierarchy based on your ability; more so than I've ever experienced with any other sport. People wanting to 'burn each other off', 'so and so is a punter- they only climb .........', etc. I worked in a climbing wall and quite a few of the strong climbers you'd come across seem to have the opinion that being able to climb a certain grade was an adequate substitute for being a decent human being. A lot of stronger climbers have this stink of arrogance where they will barely acknowledge your existence unless you climb a certain grade. 

A lot of climbers are obsessed with grade ticking and improving. Is there any other activity where people of a distinctly average ability will dedicate so much time and effort to improving, getting specialist diet and training plans, projecting the same thing over and over so they can 'tick' it?

I'm quite happy falling off my HVSs, thank you very much. 

Don't know about you, but where I climb there's enough folks walking around not paying attention to people on the walls/fall zones etc. Add in every other person scrolling through their phones and aiming it at QR codes placed directly below routes/problems then you have an issue.

Not to mention it just makes for a less sociable, present and engaged atmosphere. I find tagging everything with a barcode kinda creepy and depersonalizing.

There is little doubt that climbing has become more competitive and commercialised over the years and this has been exacerbated by climbing walls and bolts.  Luckily I think there are enough people who view the traditional side of the game as still being the essence of "climbing". I have always managed to keep a very clear and substantial distinction between climbing walls and going out climbing which enables me to ignore any aberrations that I see indoors. I'm not saying I am right and others are wrong I'm simply stating that the modern approach to climbing and recent developments are simply not my thing.  

Al

It's a shame that's your experience; it's not mine, but I mostly climb with women and close friends and avoid competitive groups. I agree that we put a lot of effort into working at improving and do question the meaning and value of a lot of it, whilst respecting and even enjoying the Promethean urge to extend our powers.

Theres no need to scan anything as you can just log what you have done afterwards if wished.

There are 10 different sets of 25 ish climbs in our wall so it's a good way of remembering what you have done if your memory is bad. 

It wasn't my experience initially. I only really came across that with characters who were in the 'inner circle', e.g local wads, setter extraordinaires, 'brand ambassadors', and so on. Until I worked in climbing I had no need to interact with those people and probably didn't notice them. 

It does seem that in climbing people are often judged more on their hardest redpoint rather than the content of their character though, which is a shame.  

Fixed that for you.

I've never found an elitist attitude amongst the top trad and sport climbers and I have socialised and climbed with many of them over the years. I found most of them to be humble and self effacing. I wouldn't be surprised however if this is a more recent trend amongst indoor climbers.

I made the mistake of not doing this at a well known wall a few years ago (left it in a zipped pocket in my bag, on silent (the phone, not the bag)) just to return to find it'd been lifted.

I really don't understand this sort of sneering attitude towards anyone who has the temerity to "project" stuff. To some people it almost seems like they take a way of enjoying climbing that differs to there own as some sort of personal affront. 

To turn your argument on its head, is there any other activity where people glorify being mediocre to the extent that they actively denigrate those who try to improve.  It's a bit like being on a squash ladder, but the aim is to be at the bottom not the top.

They'll want it in the olympics next if we're not careful

"The competitive spirit of the Rock and Ice among its own members was cultivated in the surroundings of the camp-site, the barn or the boulders under which shelters were taken. There were no idle or dull moments. Someone would pick a heavy stone, lift it above his head or toss it a few yards. A challenge had been sent out to the rest of the company.

Continuous press-ups, and pull-ups on snap-links, were among the more exacting tests. Ron Moseley pushed a pen all day in an office yet held the record of twenty-six pull-ups. Don Whillans, who was generally acknowledged to be the strongest, achieved sixteen. The best I could ever manage was thirteen."

 - Joe Brown, The Hard Years.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's not a new thing, even if there's more technology involved now.

Some people log indoors on UKC too   Indoor Climbing Wall

Absolutely but there is a world of difference between friends trying to out do each other and a formal structure that has winners, losers and prizes.  It is the latter that I do not subscribe to.

Al

Jesus wept.

https://i.imgflip.com/3pymfv.png

At one of my local walls they replaced the old route cards with large font with route cards with QR codes and tiny font - whilst it doesn't "hinder" my session, it's certainly annoying.

It doesn't hinder me whatsoever, however, it does waste electricity.

Elsewhere:

Climbs outdoors are generally memorable, possibly achievements and usually mostly permanent.  Climbs indoors are rarely memorable, possibly achievements (since these will be few you can simply remember them) and hardly every permanent.

So while I do think there is merit (for myself) in logging my outdoor climbs I find there is bugger all value in remembering I flashed an orange 7a and awesome walls 6 years ago - it won't be there, the grade will be meaningless, and I bet I won't recall anything about the actual climb whereas remembering that crux high up in the Dolomites (or something) or that humiliating spanking at Almscliffe is a special thrill that I value recalling.

Making it easier to log pointless climbs and trying to "add value" or gamify indoor climbing seems to me to have simpleton appeal and once the novelty has worn off the screens can be redeployed more usefully for reruns of IFSC world cups or some such.

But if it appeals to you crack on, soon a new and different shiny thing will come along and you'll divert your attention.

That's a shame. I've bumped into a few local Lakes heros and said hi and the ones who I wasn't too shy to talk to were all very friendly and down to earth. A good VD-climbing friend was telling me last night about  enjoying the craic with Johnny Dawes, too: "obviously he was pulling my leg and bullshitting, but it was a good natter and then he went off to solo something hard." But, I did belay once next to a guy who travelled the US selling and representing for a big climbing brand, and even his brags were dull. Seemed like a nice chap but a cautionary tale: give too much of yourself to climbing's bullshit and it'll leave you with nothing worth telling. 

Ha! Great quote. I remember that bit - I read THY last year. Yes, I know competition is not new; nor training. And I've nothing against either, per se. But Whillans and Brown weren't training and climbing as a means of seeking social approval from their networked peers; and they didn't need anyone else to determine the value of their activities.

Yes, exactly: let's enjoy debating something, there's no harm in it and not sure why some people are so hostile to the idea of discussion!

That's what you meant, right?

The QR codes aren’t my thing, but ever since climbers decided to up their game either trad or sport climbing outside, then a training log in addition to recording outdoor routes became normal just like in pretty well every other sport. Structured training in climbing really became more commonplace with Livesey and Big Ron, and then of course the next step change in the ‘80s with AP, Ben and Jerry. It’s a long time ago and they were to a certain extent playing catch-up with climbers like John Gill from the ‘50s and 60s in the states who was putting up V9s while HVS was a big thing in the U.K.

I’ve been puntering for 42 years now, not ‘wall bred’ although I do love them, and attempt to swim against the tide of getting old with a crappy training journal just so I can keep on top of a losing battle. 
Would I scan codes with my phone? Well hopefully winter sun climbing abroad will start again so I’ll structure training 4x4s and pyramids to get fit for it, maybe I would. I think I get far more information about where I am from fingerboard logs though.

There's a few interesting things they could do in the future like use the data of who can climb what and where to normalise grades across walls and provide more information about the route than will fit on a little bit of paper.   I guess if I was totally stuck being able to scan the QR code and get video beta of the setter climbing the problem would be useful.

I'd see the logging function as something to use every now and then when I got a grade I'd not managed before or a route I'd been working for a while, no way I'd want my phone on the mat in normal circumstances.

All fair comments in my view!

That sounds a bit creepy though, no? I wouldn't want my wall to have that info on me. After giving my name, I was once asked by staff at one local wall:

Is your birthday: 2X/0Y/198Z? I was pretty mortified to realise they'd give  my DOB to anyone who wandered in claiming to be me!

It would be fairly easy to remove all the personal information and key the records off a random ID number before using it to compare grading between walls.

Oops.  That's not good practice.

I’d stick a QR code on each hold.

That's nice, but even better might be RFID tags in each hold, linked to an app in the climber's phone.  Then if they fall off an easy route, or low down on something, it could issue a loud sad trombone wah wah wah fail sound, or the sound of sobbing (for example).  Get to the top of something hard you get the sound of riotous cheering and champagne corks popping, together with Bizet's Carmen overture.  Belayer lowers you too quickly, or for boulder routes you jump (or fall) from high up, you get a "splat" sound when you reach the floor.

Who needs QR codes?  I'd put a camera at the bottom of the route and beside the final clip / chain and do facial recognition against the member's database to automatically log the climb. 

Also, obviously, sensors under every hold logging to the millisecond when force was applied to detect resting on the rope and allow the sequence to be reconstructed and replayed over a 3D visualisation of the route.

Done that Tom!!! Actually worked well, but a little too far for most and needs to be more main stream first..........

Or we could use sensors and stick a chip in each of the limbs of climbers? It could be called something catch like "Climbgasm"...?

I once met a guy who said he thought 'climbing was so competitive' I've never found/felt it so. I think it said more about his outlook than anything.

Isn't it the Climbax you need! (see press release and associated thread/jokes)

It is possible to log your ascents later, you don't have to scan it right then... It also gives anyone training on the Crimpd app or similar something to do in their rests.

Like Strava only all the segments are wiped every 6 weeks. Put me in the old and dull camp. I get a million things asking for my attention all day. Phone stays packed away when I'm climbing

Apparently some of them do, but they must have chalk-resistant phones.  Mine won't work with any chalk on my fingers and I wouldn't want to climb with it my pocket anyway.

I find that just doing coloured circuits where I can onsight more than 50% and get the rest with a couple of goes is enough analysis for me.     

Mammut seem to think you're onto something...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/training_aids/mammut_climbax_revie...

A camera of the bottom of the route looking up could work by arse recognition.

Now I think we're getting somewhere.

The cheek of it!

Thats actually quite a clever idea, as long as the range isnt too big it would provide a better metric for analysing routes than there is currently (height / hand movements). This could possibly be the next step they need to make it a bit more viable than numbers that dont really mean anything !

Crack climbing at the wall?

not enough detail for accurate recognition I'm afraid but its possible to recognised a bottom and then categorise it...... small/ medium/large so that might be useful as a measure

If you don’t scan the top hold you haven’t completed the route.

Yeah saw that and was going to say, had to check the calendar. However I then felt pity for whoever had spent time designing that thing. 

To be fair if you could scan something that automatically uploads to your ukc logbook, that would save a bit of time

Whilst some might argue that giving people the choice as to how they "interact" with problems at a wall may be considered a good thing, the only wall I've been to which has QR codes didn't have any other means of finding out what grade they were. So if you don't want to carry your phone about, or you haven't got a smart phone (yes, such people do exist) or you don't want people bumping into you because they're wandering around looking at their phone then you're a bit stuffed.

For me, since I can't read my phone without my reading glasses on (there are many of us of a certain age for whom that's the case), then not only do I have to carry my phone about, I have to carry my reading glasses about as well and since I don't climb in them I'd have to leave them lying on the mat for someone to stand on as well as my phone.

And something like, a requirement that new members need to have scanned  routes at three different crags, before they can post about covid, would save a lot of people a bit of time. 😊