UKC

To follow on from a question on a previous thread.

Do most places have a "hard" move on routes.

I've noticed lately a couple of "hard last move routes" creeping in at a number of walls, not particularly what I want, when climbing indoors.

They've recently added a number of routes at our local wall, with really difficult, but also quite hard to clip routes, where this particular move doesn't reflect the rest of the route.

I've also climbed at a few places where the last move is particularly awkward / reachy / dynoey.

I found the best routes to be ones which are constant throughout, there's a couple of easy / reasonable hold up to the second clip and then pretty much the same grade after that.

Are there any route-setters here who would suggests hard top moves are a good idea?

Ooh, a lovely sting in the tail. Yes please! 

In all seriousness I think a balance is appropriate because homogenous routes are better for endurance training but cruxy routes are realistic/representative of rock and allow for interesting/hard moves to feature at easier grades. 

Only cruxy is a little annoying, only homogenous is useful but boring, a combo of both is perfect  

Outdoors you'll often find cruxy routes so it's good to train for them. It's much safer (particularly indoors) to have that crux high rather than low.

Seems that the trend is to add a slopper hold on the last move, which is ok for the first few days after which it loses friction and impossible.

This. 

Though if the crux can be more than half way up please  

I know of one particular setter who sets at our local wall who does seem to do that.  Flash attempts at an 8 and 8a+ have resulted in disappointment at the last move.  Although fantastic settings, the last move did seem out of context.  Even sent Neil Gresham up the 8a and he didnt even bother clipping penultimate clip as it was near impossible then missed the last move with loads of slack which woke me up belaying.

I'm with you on the outdoors stuff, there aren't always constant grade routes outside, and the high crux, if there's going to be one.

But surely, isn't it better to have a more constant say 6b route all the way up, then when you do go outside, it'll be easy.

I'm not sure inside should replicate outside, with most of it being 5b and one 6b move on it, it seems a waste.

Obviously each to their own, but it just seems daft, and an opportunity for real disappointment to do 95% of a route and then not be able to do the last move.

I like routes that are a bit cruxy as long as (a) the crux is in the top half (safer), (b) the technical disparity relative to the rest of the route isn't too large (e.g., a 5 route with a 6b crux: pointless) and (c) the crux isn't the last move (plain annoying).

The last remind me of outdoor routes where you can't quite reach the chains from the last decent holds. Was the route setter a tall guy? Or just plain evil? Should I just go for grabbing the chain?

Related but different - what I do hate (perhaps too strong a word) is bouldering routes where the last move is a dyno - particularly when every route on the wall seems like that. I try to avoid jumping down from the top of the wall, so routes ending in dynos are just 'half routes' for me.

Don't you get a cruxy bit anyway out of tiredness / lack of stamina?

I don't mind a few, "one move wonders" but it gives a false sense of achievement, I think, and makes the majority of the route a set of steps, unless the moves are closely matched to the crux.

Cheers.

Interesting comments on where the crux should be with many wanting it high on the route. For training purposes I don't think I generally agree. Obviously it shouldn't be so low that there is a risk of decking, but for a route to "feel" sustained at the same level the climbing should gradually ease with height because the increasing pump will make a move feel harder than a move of the same actual difficulty lower down. On an ideal training route the pump will kick in early and then every move will feel really hard (though actually easier than the last one) as the pump increases - the route is one long redpoint crux!

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of high bouldery cruxes where, to have a chance of success, you have to arrive at it feeling fresh, and therefore having found the climbing not too hard up to that point.

As a former setter, I would aim for the following:
The route should start off relatively easy for the grade and get subtly harder so that there is a slightly harder move just before the lower off.
No kick ass cruxes anywhere on the route - just a nice gentle increase in difficultly as the route progresses. 
All bolts/quickdraws should be easy to clip and not detract from the climbing - the climbing and clipping should flow together to allow for a pleasant experience.  The concept of hard to clip bolts/quickdraws is probably down to laziness/inexperience as opposed to being deliberate (least I hope so...)  

Why?

I'm a great fan of routes which if you want to clip high, make it awkward / strenuous, there are a few great routes at our wall, which if you clip chest / waist height, you're in a much better position and can save some strength to manage the rest of the route, clipping high, at arm length saps both of these. I'd like to think this was planned and not by accident.

Thanks for everyone's input, interesting to see what people want, and that we're not all the same.

Agreed.  That's good brain training.