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Training Tests

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ElArt 22 Dec 2019

Hello and thanks for any advice you can give.

Does anyone have any benchmark tests of climb strength that they can isolate and train please?

Just started fingerboard training (3 months in, doing repeaters but progress very slow) so I have access to a Beastmaker 1&2K. Just started on a Moonboard and also boulder indoors . Also have access to a great gym so are callisthenics good tests/ways to train?

Thanks and Merry Christmas 👍👍👍

 MischaHY 23 Dec 2019
In reply to ElArt:

Sack off the repeaters and do max hangs instead. You'll see better gains. 

In my opinion forearm hypertrophy (the purpose of repeaters) is better achieved on a steep board/boulders where the loading is more varied. 

Certain conditioning exercises are very useful to climbing. Pullups, offset pullups, frenchies (link below), workouts on the rings, core training and varying antagonist exercises are all very useful and will offer you considerable strength gains over simply bouldering. 

Hope this helps. 

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 Climber_Bill 23 Dec 2019
In reply to ElArt:

Agree with MischaHY. To build strength you need to do max effort, low volume, whatever the exercise.

I found that a combination of max hangs, max pull ups and max bouldering routines in the last 24 months has made good strength gains. Also, improving my core has helped significantly, especially as I am 6'4 and do not have a naturally strong core.

1
 MischaHY 23 Dec 2019
In reply to Climber_Bill:

Agreed. Would love to know what there is to dislike about either of our statements. 

Of course, it's not relevant to power endurance training (which for the record I still think is far better done on a steep board) which may be where the confusion is coming from. 

One thing I would say is that strength gains can still be made from slightly higher volume training and tend to skirt around the risk of injury a little more. For example, I favour 5 reps of max pull ups over three, as I think spending a little more time under tension has a good impact and is ultimately useful for improving consistent form and ability to move correctly whilst delivering a max effort (i.e. locking off when pumped on a hard route). 

Post edited at 09:39
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 planetmarshall 23 Dec 2019
In reply to Climber_Bill:

> Agree with MischaHY. To build strength you need to do max effort, low volume, whatever the exercise.

Strictly speaking that's to build strength via recruitment of muscle fibre - but as a climber that's probably what you want anyway.

You can also build strength via hypertrophy, ie growing more muscle fibre, with high volume. However I'm not sure that's really applicable to finger strength, though it might be for forearm strength.

Just a pedantic note really, max hangs are almost certainly what you want.

 MischaHY 23 Dec 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

> You can also build strength via hypertrophy, ie growing more muscle fibre, with high volume. However I'm not sure that's really applicable to finger strength, though it might be for forearm strength.

Actually totally correct, it's just that at least IMO the hypertrophy in question is best done on a steep board or bouldering wall whilst also building other aspects of strength and movement precision etc. 

I think a fingerboard is the most useful place to really max out the loading efforts on fingers as it's totally static and controlled and very easy to make progressively harder - unlike board training which is far more analogue. 

It also means the grip type will be far more varied hence reduced injury and building of finger pulp etc... 

All things I'm sure you're already aware of - good for the OP to know though  

Post edited at 10:41
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 1poundSOCKS 23 Dec 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

> You can also build strength via hypertrophy, ie growing more muscle fibre, with high volume. However I'm not sure that's really applicable to finger strength, though it might be for forearm strength.

Doesn't finger strength come from muscles in your forearm?

 UKB Shark 23 Dec 2019
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> Doesn't finger strength come from muscles in your forearm?

Yes - the flexors. Also just about everything else in that post contradicts my understanding and experience. Max effort will stimulate hypertrophy as well as recruitment and you don’t grow more muscle fibres you either increase the size of the ones you’ve got (hypertrophy) or you get them to work together better neurally (recruitment). When doing max hangs I’ve found the gains continue for several weeks. If the gains were just hypertrophy based then the gains would stop earlier than that. An experiment measuring forearm size would prove it. All I care is it works

Post edited at 11:08
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 Climber_Bill 23 Dec 2019
In reply to UKB Shark:

>  All I care is it works

Definitely!!

I've read some of the science behind the regimes and protocols and it is interesting but easy to get bogged down in detail. I'm happy to put in the hours of hard physical effort to get the results.

 Climber_Bill 23 Dec 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

> Agreed. Would love to know what there is to dislike about either of our statements. 

Yes.

Of course, someone may not agree with our opinions, which is fair enough. But then, they should state what they disagree with and why they disagree with it.

I'm sure you can, as can I, give examples of how this specific strength training has worked.

TJB.

 planetmarshall 23 Dec 2019
In reply to UKB Shark:

> you don’t grow more muscle fibres you either increase the size of the ones you’ve got (hypertrophy)...

It's both, as there are different kinds of hypertrophy. Increase in the number of sarcomeres (cells) or increase in fluid that surrounds the cells.

Edit - yes you either increase the number or the size (or some combination of both) of cells that make up the fibre, but the net effect is the muscle increases in size.

Edit again - since I wrote "grow more muscle fibre" (singular) and not "fibres" (plural) I was technically correct (the best kind of correct), but I was unaware of the distinction.

Post edited at 12:42
 Andy Hardy 23 Dec 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

>[...]

> Certain conditioning exercises are very useful to climbing. Pullups, offset pullups, frenchies (link below), workouts on the rings, core training and varying antagonist exercises are all very useful and will offer you considerable strength gains over simply bouldering. 

> Hope this helps. 

I think you forgot the link!

 MischaHY 23 Dec 2019
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Good beta. 

Here it is:  youtube.com/watch?v=USB0vv2buf8& 

 Doghouse 23 Dec 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

I'm no expert, but are they Frenchies?

 MischaHY 23 Dec 2019
In reply to Doghouse:

Well a Frenchie as I understand it is a variation on a pullup where you pause for several seconds at various lock points in order to increase the intensity and train power endurance. 

So yes? 

ElArt 23 Dec 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

Thanks I’ll try max hangs and see how the Moonboard helps. Do you know why max hangs produce better results?

I will try callisthenics as well. 

 jwi 23 Dec 2019
In reply to UKB Shark:

Yo Shark,

Apart from increased size of muscle cells and neural adaptions (coordination and neural drive) strength also depends on contractile properties of muscle cells, tendon stiffness, lateral force transmission through the costameres, and type of muscle cells. Of these, the type of muscle cells are not trainable, however all other adapt to training.

There is very strong evidence that low and high loads causes the same amount of hypertrophy. All that matters is effort.

ElArt 23 Dec 2019
In reply to Climber_Bill:

Thanks, close to that now after starting on the Moonboard. 
 

ElArt 23 Dec 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

Thanks Planetmarshall. Why do maxhangs make better finger Strength than Repeaters?

 UKB Shark 23 Dec 2019
In reply to jwi:

Yo Jonas

Didn’t Eva Lopez’s study show that the cycle of max weight hangs led to better gains than the minimum edge hangs?

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 MischaHY 24 Dec 2019
In reply to ElArt:

I can't comment on the specifics of the science but I would say it's because it's easier to push max hangs progressively whereas repeaters are a lot more analogue. 

 planetmarshall 24 Dec 2019
In reply to jwi:

> There is very strong evidence that low and high loads causes the same amount of hypertrophy. All that matters is effort.

That's interesting - It could mean a change in training patterns for many people as the received wisdom is that heavy weights/low volume promote neuromuscular gains rather than muscle size. Increase in muscle size might be undesirable for those looking to increase or maintain power to weight ratios (I'm thinking more in terms here of alpinists or runners who might be doing more in the way of weight training - it doesn't seem likely that anyone's going to be increasing their forearm size to the point where it makes a big difference on the scales).

 jwi 24 Dec 2019
In reply to UKB Shark:

Specificity, innit?

 Doghouse 24 Dec 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

> Well a Frenchie as I understand it is a variation on a pullup where you pause for several seconds at various lock points in order to increase the intensity and train power endurance. 

> So yes? 

Yes, sorry you're right. For some reason I had it in my head Frenchies were those typewriter things

ElArt 25 Dec 2019
In reply to ElArt:

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and Merry Christmas. As I understand it the conclusions are:

1. See link for benchmark tests. Not sure these can be achieved in a good power to weight ratio?

https://climbcore.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/strength-benchmarks-for-training...

2.  Max weight hangs are preferable to repeaters as they are easier to track results and simply produce better results. 

3. A better understanding of physiology helps alot   This is a good motivation to study physiology or a more specific subject such as Alex Burrows and others Energy System based training web pages/books (although I haven’t come across a book that has led me to write a good training program (and I have read the obvious ones)) 

Alex Burrows link:

http://alexbarrowsclimbing.blogspot.com/2014/02/training-for-sport-climbing...

Thanks again. 
 

Bill


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