UKC

Just a word of caution.

We went to Westway today.  Was charged £11 (full adult entry) to belay my daughter on top of her entry.

The belay charge is not mentioned on their website and I have not been charged it before at Westway. So it came as a bit of a surprise. I don't know of any other walls that charge this much to belay.

That's taking the ... I'd've walked away!

...I emailed the centre manager who confirmed it was correct.

Email him a copy of this thread. We don't charge in my locals for belaying as often they're greatful that climbers will bring beginners in and not climb themselves.

I have.

I took my daughter to undercover Rock in Bristol quite a bit last year and never climbed myself. I just paid for her and I was not charged a bean. 

It sounds like the Westway are rinsing coins. 

Sounds like a case of they don't know what they're doing. No walls charge for belaying. It's absurd since you'll only be taking up one line. A good way to make them lose customers if they don't make amends.

They really could not care less about losing customers whom don’t precisely conform to their target audience. All the walls in London are jam packed and with such a limited number of lead/top rope facilities in central, the punters will keep paying.

It even effects the setting, look at the Biscuit Factory brand walls. The Arch started off with a broad range of grades, now the franchise just set for the V4 cut-free selfie scene and can make a mint from it.

The Westway is a large multi use centre. The staff turnover is high and entry for climbing consists of pressing a pre programmed screen. There is usually a queue and a sausage factory approach where the operator barely looks up from the screen in front of them.I doubt they ( those operating the entry system) would have any knowledge of climbing beyond pressing of screen to facilitate adult entry.

The staff actually in the wall  are always knowledgeable and helpful.

I'm going to guess that some people are not as honest as others and that free belaying has lead to people not paying when they should.  I can't imagine the staff policing this effectively so we all suffer.  

How does the wall cover it's responsibilities unless someone enters on an official basis?  It seems ro me there needs to be a zero fee entry if nothing else, in case you caused an accident.

I don't see why belayers shouldn't pay something as they are using the facility. Being fair it should be a reduced fee. Even with London prices twenty odd quid is a cheap activity cost for a parent and child.

But they're not using the facility. They're giving their time. Their sole purpose is to facilitate the use of the wall for the climber. Without the climber there'd be no sense in them being at the wall at all.

They are using tne facility.  Two parent child pairings take as much space as four climbers, they have insurance liabilities,  they need to be registered as being there.

In my experience the capacity of a climbing wall is not limited by its volume but by the number of lines. A single climber does not climb any more, whether they are climbing in a pair or climbing on their own. 

Depends how fit they are.  If you've got a parent belay slave and the stamina you can get a lot more routes in per session than if you need to take turns.

But the salient fact here is that everything in the middle of London is expensive.  If you're paying a fortune in rent you need rip-off prices just to come out even.

Actually floor space is part of  the problem when the climber is on the ground (up to half the time?).  It's a commercial enterprise not a charity and you didn't deal with the insurance question. The best fair solution in terms of realistic costs would probably be a multi-entry belaying pass at small fraction of the regular price.

If the wall is regularly quiet at a particular time and the market is competitive (you could go elsewhere) they should make money by letting you in for free.

Actually the Westway is a charity

In reply to Westway:

A thoughtful reply, however just to clarify you say "As in the case of MGRT we allowed free entry, due to his child's inclusion in the GB dev squad"

MGRT states that he paid both for his daughter and himself? 

In reply to Westway:

Nice one on taking the time to reply. I don't get this point though, as not all centres charge for belaying. I may be missing your point!

In reply to MGRT:

Maybe next time you could try to be more diplomatic and deal with things in private .

Congratulations on your daughter's success and thank you for volunteering your time to help a GB squad member. Without parents, family friends, the walls and BMC volunteers, the developing success of GB competition climbers probably would not happen.

In reply to Westway:

Well-done for as you say wading in. I a m gonna risk dislikes by saying I think you give a fairly good response - you do explain that you STOPPED free belaying because it was abused, belayers decided to do some cheeky climbing (occasionally I see this at walls I frequent, but not lots - still, we are in a different country here in Edinburgh, so attitudes may be different!  Wonder if this has parallels with us as a community losing outdoor crags due to behaviour? (Ohhhhh, Dislike, dislike!).

A fiver a pop is pretty cheap kid entry (our local walls aint that cheap).

However, you are wrong to say all walls charge for belaying. Alien Rock lets belayers in for free (and will even give them harness and belay device free). £6 per kid, or I think £15 for two kids, plus harness/shoes for all three. EICA Ratho lets belayers in for free (I think £5.90 kid entry). And Foresters Wall (Tranent. All local climbers will now be Googling, going wtf? It is a secret facility!!) doesn't officially let belaying parents in for free but chat to the staff about it. Foresters is possibly the cheapest CLIMBING STARTUP...3 hour course for under £25 inc gear. That's normL, not a special offer.

So....maybe there's a middle way? Monthly "belayer card" for £20 (encourages upsell of frequent visits, more coffee bought etc?)? Child plus belayer ticket for a tenner? Or at least free coffee if only belaying. 

Sorry you have cheaters...maybe you need wristbands for belay only so staff can spot misuse?

Good luck finding a way theough this that might keep majority of community onside, give value, and not let the bad apples take the piss. Well-done again for putting your neck on the line in UKC.

Back in -

I have to start with an apology to MGRT I didn't realise he was recognisable by his alias, therefore didn't see an issue with talking about his particular entry which I thought was pertinent to this discussion. If someone could point out how I can amend the post I will.

Jezb - I was refering to stp's point that climbers only take up one line. Much like a parent and child. Whenever you go into a centre you are paying to use it whether you are belaying or climbing the usage on the rope and the space you are taking up is the same.

OffWidth - I have had the discussion with the author of this post via email prior to this forum being started. They said they would like to bring it to the forums when we were discussing on the day and I asked for a link to be able to respond publically. I obviously would have liked to deal with it privately but equally happy to discuss openly if desired.

Brendan - thanks for your constructive ideas. I think with the growing market new ideas and "innovations" like this are going to be needed. Wrist bands in my experience in a packed wall like ours often "slip off". Sorry if I mixed some words but I wasn't trying to suggest that belays were charged on the most part elsewhere. I was merely trying to make the point that hopefully I have clarified with "Jezb" response above.

There are a few practices that we do differently here at the Westway but we do keep juniors, growth of the sport, standards, safety and hopefully communication at the forefront of our business plan.

Just in case you missed it jeztapping@everyoneactive.com ! 

Hi there,

V4 is a classic punter grade, so I guess they’re setting for the majority. Does this mean that grades harder than V4 are starting to get edged out?

In reply to Westway:

That's simply not true. I visit several climbing walls regularly and on the odd occasion when one person is just belaying only the climber is charged.

I appreciate the problem though that some people abuse this and use it for a free entry. I imagine this is far more difficult check at times when the wall is very busy. Nevertheless it seems unfair that those who really are just there to belay are the ones being penalised for the problem.

That's true but surely that's the point. There's only one climber using one line yet two people are being charged.

Hi Jez

Thank you for your responses.

I appreciate that Westway is a business/charity and as such can charge what you want. Likewise as a customer I have the right to vote with my feet.

... However, the price for Junior entry is advertised on your website at £5. While in practice, as you have said, it is in effect £16. 

Notwithstanding that this makes is by far the most expensive Junior entry in the country, and it is more expensive for a Junior to climb than an adult - your website is misleading.

Having driven an hour and a half to visit the wall, we had already effectively shelled out the best part of £20 in fuel so had no choice but to pay the £16

Westway is an excellent wall - IMO the lead wall is the best in the South. The staff have always been awesome. I would urge you to reduce your Junior climbing fees to allow more youngsters to enjoy it.

In reply to Westway:

I've belayed for free at Leeds Wall, which admittedly has changed hands recently. Are you sure this is true?

Whatever the other arguments, £16 is very steep for a youngster to climb.

Lots of other climbing walls do provide rhe concession for parental belaying so saying £5 is cheap is actually misleading if almost all the other walls do have this concession.

A wall could charge the child £15.99 and still come up cheaper than Westway if they're letting a non-climbing adult in for free.

If you take a child several times a week I'm sure it racks up into hundreds a month. I certainly wouldn't be able to afford it anyway. It sounds like Westway is busy enough to charge that amount though. 

I don’t pay to belay at the Foundry (£5 child entry) or Awesome Walls in Sheffield (£6.50 child entry I think) nor at other walls in this area.  As a parent of a comp climber who trains up to 5 times a week, I could not afford to pay adult price every time on top of that.

Surely, this policy just drives the best youth climbers towards boulder walls and leaves parents not skilled enough to support their children as they progress in the sport. 

No it doesn't rack up to hundreds a month at your 'local' wall as there are always cheaper multi-entry concessions and passes. The problem is more the need to travel for comps and normally having  to travel more for a local wall of the right quality.

I think if a wall is supporting free entry for squad climbers then the squad climber's non-climbing belayer should enter free. It's hardly like a parent of a squad climber is likely to risk breaking the wall rules and climb. Having volunteer judged at a youth comp the costs and time sacrifice of parents, family and friends is super impressive. Also, most kids are not in the squad.

I have had the website amended to reflect the policy.  https://www.everyoneactive.com/westway-climbing/centre-info/pricelist/ and I have added it to a review of pricing for the new financial year.

r0x0r.wolfo  -  I will refer you to a previous post "We support youth Climbing through our NICAS program (cheapest per session in London), we have a performance program (which we heavily subsidise), we have "Pay and play" sessions (which are almost half the cost of anywhere else in London) to bring new climbers in, and even our parties are 20-30% cheaper than anywhere else. We raise money and facilitate sessions for many number of groups including those affected by Grenfell, disability groups and BME groups for instance" .

This post had to be reposted. Therefore may be out of order.

Afternoon all. This is Jez the Head of Climbing here at the Westway and Regional Climbing manager for Everyone Active. Just thought I would wade in and provide a voice. Apologies if this is disjointed but just going through the chain and picking up what I can.

To clarify: simple answer - We do charge full entry for adults who are entering the facility. Long answer - This charge was waived a few years ago but was bought back in when we were having way too many people saying this and then being caught Climbing. The logic now being that you may use the facility (as long as it is Climbing orientated) however you see fit. Our price for child entry is the lowest in London (£5) and I appreciate that this is increased due to the required adult entry to chaperone but I have addressed this above. I hope the charge will actually facility and encourage parents to climb. Also there is no difference in admittance charge for Boulderers or rope climber.  

For use of our central London facility, that has some of the best walls in the South, for all day usage I feel is fair. Plus please don't take this wrong way (rag to a bull on forums) but this is a commercial decision for us. We support youth Climbing through our NICAS program (cheapest per session in London), we have a performance program (which we heavily subsidise), we have "Pay and play" sessions (which are almost half the cost of anywhere else in London) to bring new climbers in, and even our parties are 20-30% cheaper than anywhere else. We raise money and facilitate sessions for many number of groups including those affected by Grenfell, disability groups and BME groups for instance. Sorry to rant on about this but "rinsing coin" was a difficult one for me to swallow.

stp - all walls charge for belaying. Whenever you go in to a centre. All climbers take up one line.

alx - I do care immensely, hence the essay here and please feel free to check out my credentials (Jez Tapping on Linkedin).

Spartacus - When you come to the facility you will see there are 2 receptions, one for the whole centre and one for Climbing specifically. Everyone on the Climbing reception is a passionate climber and fully into the sport, many of whom as are coaches also.

marsbar - The staff (Climbing duty managers) are not in the wall to police who has or hasn't paid but to make sure everyone is safe. Even though, indeed, people walking in to the wall without paying is becoming an increasing problem.

Graeme - The Westway Trust is a charity and although the majority of the senior staff were at one point employed by the Trust we are now operated by Everyone Active. The transition you will note has been obviously punctuated by 2 major developments in as many years.

Wow, fingers like nubs. Never typed so fast! ;oP

Feel free to email me if any of you would like to discuss in private

jeztapping@everyoneactive.com

Thanks for posting this. I am BTW one very happy Westway user and second all the comments about the staff and their enthusiasm.

This dispute has still not been clarified. Someone is not being straight. 

Westway - you have repeated again the statement that all walls charge for belaying. They do not, Several people have named walls that do not charge for purely belaying.

Jez, Sympathy... I've climbed at Westway for a looong time, staff and routes are excellent. The facilities you provided in the Grenfell aftermath were commendable, you're a charity but have to pay staff and much else besides. Provided the website is clear that belaying kids costs you as well as them none should have a complaint. You may not be perfect, who is, I hope you don't feel you are being trashed, it's undeserved if so.

Two adults go to the Westway (assuming casual entry and peak time): total cost £22.

An adult and a child go to the Westway: total cost: £16.

These costs stay the same regardless of whether one in the pair is only belaying.

So I'm not sure how you're deriving the claim that it's "more expensive for a Junior".

You could argue that one of the adults in the first example could go to the wall on their own -- but then, without a belayer, they couldn't climb routes either. It's not like Juniors are the only people who need belayers!

https://www.everyoneactive.com/westway-climbing/centre-info/pricelist/ says "Any parent supervising their child at the centre will be required to pay normal adult entry. Exceptions apply for GB squad members and our own squad members."

That seems pretty clear (unless it's been modified since this thread started!).

I agree but the internet may not be the best place to resolve it. Westway seem clear on what they do and why in general.

34 dislikes for my posts so far... clearly hitting a nerve or two here even with my known ability to annoy the UKC children.

I still think walls allowing free belaying for the general public are being very generous (Im not complaining, just stating that fact... many walls are very generous) . I still think for the youth comps, that parents, friends and family get way too little appreciation for what they do: the time and travel is pretty extensive.

I still think squad members should not be charged for a non climbing belayer where a belayer fee is normally in place (like Westway).

I still think UK dedicated climbing walls are too cheap for what they provide and most climbers moaning about fees are too parsimonious.

Maybe the dislikers can argue the points rather than just lazy button pressing.

"all walls charge for belaying." - no that simply isn't correct. Most walls do not charge for belaying.

Offwidth has an odd, but consistent track record of being a total lickspittle for climbing wall management everywhere. There's no real point in engaging - offwidth generally thinks we should pay double, no triple, entry fees and doff our caps to the warm hearted gentlemen of the climbing industry no matter how outrageous the conditions or mediocre the facilities.

... it has see Westway's post at 13:24 yesterday. Also a commitment to review charges. I think perhaps the post went a bit unnoticed. 

Thank you Westway for taking the feedback on board.

Whoops, sorry, totally missed that! In that case, glad that they've clarified it.

Yeah but the price hasn't been amended.

Jez.....

How can an adult who turns up to belay a child be suspected of going to cheat the system and climb? Obviously their child cannot belay them?... unless perhaps they are a large teenager. I suppose the adult could sneak a go on the autobelays, or maybe sneak a belay off another adult? 

Allowing parent and child to have free belay entry, but not allow adult pairs, should stop people abusing the free belay entry, as only adults could abuse this, assuming children are not allowed to belay an adult?

Also why not just have an agreement in place that adults belaying children only, agree to wear a tabbard / hi viz type thing, or something that says "belay only" on it?, rather than a hard to spot wristband?

Children should be allowed to climb without parents paying much more than just the child entry, plus maybe a couple of quid for the adult belaying to get them on the entry system and covered by insurance. £16 is a pretty disgraceful, and obviously excluding climbing wall availability to families on lower incomes. 

Two adults going to the climbing wall paying £22 and both climbing because they can is £11 each, a parent who is there to supervise a child and belay only, not climb, at £16, is £16 for the child to climb.

TBH the "sneaking in and climbing" problem is a straw man argument. 

If Westway has a problem with this they can easily tackle it through other means (I know of one place that uses different colour wristbands and permits free belaying).

They get away with it, and do not need to justify it, because they can. There is no moral imperative supporting their actions - they are simply free to rip people off because of the demand, I dare say they'd like to charge for guide dogs and the use of toilets as well if they could stomach the outrage.

Personally I see the client as the climber and the belayer as a volunteer donating their labour to support the client and as such they adding value to the proposition and should be supported by (rather than charged by) the wall.

Just to reiterate the point (that has been denied by Westway more than once): charging for belaying is not normal practise - Westway are amongst a few exceptional walls that do this and even amongst this small number appear to charge more than rest.

If two adults climbers go to the wall they should both get in for half price as they can only climb half the time.

Boulderers and children with belay slaves should pay full price as they can climb all the time.

Obviously belay slaves will in this situation get in for free.

I think charging for belaying is unreasonable. Is climbing becoming an increasingly middle class sport, particularly for kids as only the relatively well off can afford to take their kids to climbing walls (particularly when the parent has to pay to supervise)? Having spent a lot of time taking my youngest to climbing comps over the last 10 years, I certainly have the impression that the majority of the parents there are middle class.

What a warm hearted post. Belittle Offwith and spite Wall owner in one go. You missed 'plastic pullers' and its not real climbing for the hat trick.

Are you trying to tell me offwidth is not a serial apologist for climbing walls? I think you need to double check your research...

Not convinced that your personal opinion on the 'generosity ' of walls is a fact as such.

Feel free to dislike away - not everyone is as thin skinned as you appear to be.

I'm not a serial follower of Offwidth's posts; but where he posts comments on Walls, his comments are often (not always) pertinent to the manner in which Walls are operated. Mean, nasty insults such as 'lickspittle' and jibes at Wall owners; I assume based on them being business owners and operators add little to this forum.

Westway have claimed (on this thread) all walls charge for belaying. Either they're correct and other posters are lying, or we need to take anything they say with a pinch of salt.

I’m still not sure of the Westway defence that they have a separate reception and book in for the climbing wall. Last time I went you paid at the front door and then were allowed through turnstiles. 

Anyone been more recently and can confirm separate climbing book in?

I read it differently, more like "if a pair of climbers go, they both pay to belay, because unlike the kid they can't climb 100% of the time", or somesuch.  It is a bit single-supplement-esque, but he is right that just like a couple and an individual both take up the same 1 hotel room (and as such mostly pay the same for it), a pair of climbers still take up a line at any one time regardless of whether one or both of them is going to actually climb.

FWIW, it never even occurred to me until reading these threads that someone would gain free admission at any wall (though it seems they do) unless they were not entering the climbing areas at all and simply sitting in the cafe.  And (looking at other leisure facilities) some (though not many these days) swimming pools even charge to spectate even where there is no scope to "sneak into the pool" whatsoever.  And not a single gym I can think of will let someone in for free if they're just going to help their training partner with the weights or somesuch.

That doesn't make sense to me. A thread where the complaint is that you have to pay if you just want to belay even if you don't climb (and in response to STP who made the point that no walls charge for belaying, i.e just belaying) and Westway respond "all walls charge for belaying". So in context it would be a response to just belaying, not climbing and belaying.

I queried this "fact" in the thread and got no response. Again a bit telling.

Yes I'm nearly always a supporter of those running the dedicated climbing walls I visit most, around the Peak and Yorkshire. Quite a few owners are friends. I see what they have done over the years for those sometimes genuinely struggling for cash (including quite a few students in my old club), for top competitors, and for charities like cleanups and some aspects of the BMC, and I really appreciate it. The workers get pretty low pay and most of them do a fabulous job for it with friendly efficient service, good safety, and really good quality setting all the way down to my lowly grades. I'm not looking to see entry fees increase to anything like double current prices but I do think they are currently on the cheap side. A small increase means posibilities for things like: more staff, better staff pay, better discounts for the genuinely poor and assistance for young stars (where this thread started) . I can't tell how well off you are as you have no profile but the people I know in person who moan most about entry costs can most certainly afford it.

I'm far from a fan of all walls... I've been on UKC/Rocktalk from the start and there are plenty of old threads of mine critiquing walls. Most famously the original big Birmingham wall, about 20 years back, for an extortionate annual membership fee and then having  paid it we faced the cheek of them turning the lights out on us in the changing room, as they thought we were dawdling... all so the remaining staff could leave nearly an hour early. Leed's Wall in recent years had gone 'downhill'.

I have never been charged for just belaying at any wall I have been to over the last 20 years. These are all Northern walls. Also when I was keen I took my friend to just belay in return for lunch and again no charge was made for the belayer.   So five walls means you are way off the mark over charging

Yes , you can pay at the front desk or at the climbing wall desk but either way there is a card reader at the door to the wall to ensure  you’ve paid. No doubt some people try to tailgate in.

If you walk in backwards it looks like you're on your way out

Yes, it's clearly incorrect to state that all walls charge for belaying.

On the other hand, I don't know how it shakes out with London walls in particular -- I remember a thread a while back about the Castle also charging for people who are belaying-only.

So there may be a geographical factor here.

Same here. I recently took a colleague to The Castle because he wanted to try climbing. It never crossed my mind that I shouldn't have to pay because I was only belaying him.

To me, whether it's both persons climbing or just one, a line is still busy thus not available to anyone else. I don't think the 'but it's only busy half of the time' argument holds water either : I'm not going to wait for a line to become free, I'll just move on to the first available one; whether it's busy for 10 minutes or 20 makes no difference.

The gym analogy is good : I don't know any gyms that will grant free entry to spotters, so why are climbers expecting climbing walls to be any different?

It all depends how you look at things. I have taken Blind, less able people, kids and novices to the wall over the years. I am volunteering my time so the person gets a climbing experience. I am doing it for them. The wall gets a paying client who would  not normally go.

 Swimming - I don't know what your pools are like but the ones here have never charged me to watch my kids have lessons etc. I have only paid to watch galas.   Anyway it seams to me there is a north south something or other. . Clearly we must be doing something right in Yorkshire as we had the largest number of Medals in the Olympics, Our beer is cheaper we have the super friendly Foundry, Leeds wall has re opened and we have fallen in love with Agden all over again.  Bless 

Vote with your feet always works

Spoken by a man with too much money ! 

funny 

11 pound to climb in plastic !!! Jeez 

I thought 8 was bad ! 

Same place used to be £4.50 when it opened !  Nowts changed though ! 

At a facility provided by someone else with costs to cover. And you're only giving your time for the person you're belaying - how far should your altruism be supported by others?

i propose that it _is_ a north-south thing. every wall i've climbed at with my kids or climbing partners, here in the south east, operates like Westway. and it's not because they're 'ripping people off' any more than any other business. things are more expensive here, and justifiably so (even if it feels unreasonable).

what's more, there's no rock anywhere nearby, so you have a supply and demand problem for rock and resulting surplus demand for the walls. with all that extra demand you need more effort to look after the walls and people, more careful policing for safety etc.

i dare say that the sheffield etc walls have to compete with mother nature for the finite amount of money climbers are willing to spend on plastic, hence have a better approach to these matters of who can and can't belay for free. 

Except, you know, inflation.

Hi Guys -Jez again, 

Sorry for the tardy response but with an operational review (standard practice) Sat-Sun, a 24 hour Fundraising event (https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/elcapitanchallenge ) Mon-Tues and subsequent lack of sleep (and migraine) therein, plus preparing for a major wall renovation starting next monday, it has taken me a while to come back to this thread. Plus wondering if re-igniting the conversation and subsequently losing more sleep is advantageous to all. Nonetheless I will persevere and possibly take a leaf out of other operators book and leave the UKC forums and not get involved in future.

Individual responses -

The controversial response of - all walls charge you to belay was not a reference to a chargeable product but the point that when you enter a wall you are paying to use that facility as a climber and belayer. I have been around long enough to know that some walls do charge specifically for belaying but a lot don't. My apologies if this was not presented clearly enough. My personally opinions on this are not for public consumption.

We do have a separate Climbing reception now and have done since July of 2017.

Roped climbing walls in central London are very expensive beasts and at present there are only limited numbers - us, The Castle, The Reach and to a limited degree Mile End. The reason we see the expansion of Bouldering walls is their accessibility (of course) but also their lower running costs (floor walking, ropes tests, kit checkers, ropes, roped route setters etc etc) + Height is money in London. Plus do Bouldering walls charge any less, even with lower running costs? This is not to say we rank our prices up to meet this, in fact considering this, as previously stated, we offer some of the cheapest prices for Londons youth (NICAS, parties, tasters etc) and adult climbers unless you go on real rock (a free alternative).

Closing statement from me - in response to

We went to Westway today.  Was charged £11 (full adult entry) to belay my daughter on top of her entry.

The belay charge is not mentioned on their website and I have not been charged it before at Westway. So it came as a bit of a surprise. I don't know of any other walls that charge this much to belay.

1. We have updated our website to show our current policy on charging.
2. We will review this in January in line with our normal price review process, for implementation in April, plus any process' that will need to be bought in if this change is made.
3. We will be holding a customer forum (as we do at least twice a year) on Wednesday the 6th of February and invite you all to attend.

I will be logging off from UKC and having a hiatus for a few days!

Puts you at a bit of a disadvantage on a thread where everyone else is free to share theirs eh?  My personal opinion is that charging people full price to belay sucks, but then I don't live in London so perhaps I'm less accustomed to paying through the nose for everything than some of your customers.

Best of luck with your refurb.  Hope you're able to catch up on some zzz and shake off the migraine soon.

By helping the wall by floor walking during freshers week and at an open day. Climb there as a paying climber at least once a week. 

I would not take anything from this thread.  In fact it has been really really interesting reading what people have to say.  Only by sharing views do we get understanding. Don't take to heart. Take care, Actually this was all one big conspiracy to get me to give on your just giving page.   Well Done

A refurb! That'll be fun to see.

What, the new price list?!

Wages doubled too ?¿

Can I paraphrase?

"We've been caught bang to rights but we're unrepentant. We're going to attempt to kick this into the long grass and hope that you'll get bored and go away. Hopefully this long and rambling reply will convince some of you that "we care" but ultimately we charge because we can, tough shit."

Is it? It's run by Everyone Active and they are not really a charity:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08030154

They are not though. If the climber boulders and you watch them you are not using the facility. If the climber uses the auto-belay likewise, if you belay them likewise.

Westway could easily police the people "belaying only cheats" by only allowing people to have the concession if they bring a child. I doesn't really need policing on the climbing room floor as this will be covered at a paying in desk. OK so a few might take the piss, but it surly will only be a very low number, and you could state if caught then you get barred.

When you go to a wall do you pay for your partner?

Have a dislike on me.

That's the company that operates it on behalf of WW. Westway is a charity, and the climbing is only a part of what they do. 

As a long term user of WW, yes it is expensive and belayers need to pay, but try and open and run a 20mts high structure in zone 1 in London. 

London tax innit guvenor, wallet farming is a way of life. 

D

I suppose the management might be responsible if eg a climber/boulderer lands on the belayer or the belayer causes an injury by being under a climber. A reduced fee to cover this might be more acceptable.

On the other hand the wall is presumably getting a fee from the young climber that it would not get if there was no belayer, and this will be multiplied by repeat visits including cases where the climber is accompanied by another (paying) climber.

Instead of alienating parents, climbing walls should be looking at the benefits.  I am in the privaledged position of my daughter being a sponsored climber for her local wall.  I now spend more on cups of tea, cake and if I am really hungry pizza than I did before on climbing entry.  My buddy eats like a horse so he probably spends double that.  

We pay when we go to other walls but have to consider the costs so spend much less on food etc.

kids bring parents.  Kids introduce friends to climbing who have more parents.  Kids grow up into young adults who have disposable income to spend and become a readily made source of young employees to help run a successful centre.

Alienate those kids/parents at your peril

When we climb at Kendal I pay a nominal sum to belay.  I  Don’t begrudge it at all as I pay less than £10 for both of us.  I would never go back to a wall that charged me £16 for one session

The issue here is that children generally don't have incomes and therefore can't pay for their own entry costs, and thus the total doesn't get split between two people.

However, "parents have to pay their child's costs to do something" is really not unique to climbing walls, and doesn't equate to "children are being charged more than adults".

You could equally say "children aren't being charged anything (since they're not the ones paying); adults have to pay a £5 surcharge if they want to bring a child in with them".

If you want to argue that it'd be good or generous for walls to allow parents belaying children to do so for free, go for it!

What I'm objecting to is juggling numbers to claim that children are being charged *more* than adults.

If I went to a climbing wall with a partner and said "My partner can't pay the entry fee because they're a bit skint, so please let one of us in for free", I'd be very suprised if it worked.

If you think watching someone on the auto-belay is the same as belaying them, then I'm concerned about your approach to belaying ...

When a line is occupied by a team of one person climbing and one belaying, it's occupied.

It doesn't somehow become *less* occupied because the belayer's going to keep belaying on subsequent routes, as opposed to taking turns to climb and belay.

If walls want to give free entry to people who are only belaying, or specifically to parents who are belaying children, that's their call, but I'm puzzled at the idea that the belayer somehow isn't "using" the facilities. They're half of a team!

It is basically £16 for a non climbing parent to take a child there. That seems ridiculously expensive to me. I did not get charged when I accompanied my kids to watch them swimming though I occupied the building, had a seat and benefited from some heating. However, if  I took them to see a film suitable for them, then I would expect to pay as I would actually be directly participating in the experience.

Would you expect to pay if you got into the water to coach your kids but did not actually swim?

Yes. But I think that the climbing wall situation is more analogous to the swimming pool example where you are simply attending. There are lots of other examples....eg. taking kids to a tennis court and watching, I would not expect to pay but if I were to participate in a knock up I would expect to do so. The activity to be paid for is climbing and not belaying. At my local wall, I frequently see parents who would not call themselves climbers and never climb indoors or outdoors but are simply acting to support their kids.

I think you've been hanging around with Offwidth too long

How many climbs will one child climb in a session compared to two adults? You seem to be arguing that the child will climb twice as much as each normal climber. 

I don't mind parents getting in for free to belay.  Not so sure about when a 'watching' parent with three kids grabs all three autobelays and swaps the kids about rather than releasing the line when they finish on the first one.

We must have spent maybe 8 together hours in total in our lives... 2 hours at that Stanage Forum thing and 6 hours on an Agden trip .. clearly way too long and very weird venues for anyone you would regard as UKC 'normal'. If so, thank god we are unusual is all I can say. Viva slab_happy!

Not sure about that, you are not simply attending and watching, you are participating. Indeed the activity would not be possible without your participation.

Should you just want to sit in the cafe or on the sidelines and watch then I agree a charge would seem unreasonable

Not sure about you but if I was asked to go to a wall and belay someone for fun and not climb, I would expect them to pick up the £11 tab. 

I take my daughter to the wall occasionally and facilitate her climbing by belaying her. She rarely does more than three routes before getting tired. I don't climb anything. Charging me full price for that would be a good way to discourage any further sessions. The walls I go to don't charge me.

You must really enjoy belaying.

Is it not "less occupied" because once that person has finished they walk away and leave it free for someone else. Instead of standing at the bottom, changing over, and the other half having a go? 

Yes only one of an adult pair can climb at one time, but if you assume every individual can climb the same number of routes in a day, then a child and a belayer climb half that of two climbers.

I don't get charged less if I only do a few routes in a session and decide to sack it off early becuse I'm tired, so I don't think that's relevant ...

For that matter, some kids with adult belayers are full of energy and may be preparing for comps and probably *will* do a lot more routes than a pair of adults having a fairly desultory session and a lot of tea breaks (which, let's face it, is what a lot of us do).

(Or a kid might do one route and get bored, who knows.)

I can see lots of arguments for why it might be good or generous for a wall to decide to allow adults belaying children to do so for free!

What I'm objecting to here is the idea that they should be *entitled* to do so because somehow belaying doesn't involve "using the facilities" or "participating". To me, that's a really odd view of belaying.

Can't say that I do, especially. Sometimes it's interesting, sometimes it's a literal pain in the neck.

But I try to belay with rather more attention and involvement than if I was just watching someone climb on the auto-belay, and I'd expect the same from someone belaying me!

Ditto. I think it's kind some walls don't charge for belayers  (even though I'd prefer their kindness to be  targetted at those who who need the cheaper entry most). However I find it bizarre some people feel as belayers they should always be entitled to free entry..

Wouldn't the "costs" of running a walk, apart from overheads, staff, heating, rent etc. be wear and tear? So I'd imagine children put less wear and tear on ropes, holds and the rest of the wall than adults do.

It's obviously up to the wall, but I can't see how a Dad belaying his child is really "using" the facilities.

Really! You drew that conclusion from what I wrote.

Actually belaying is worse than watching someone as you actually are working at something requiring full attention and giving possible neck pain when in fact you have paid to climb.

I'm not sure what conclusion you think I've drawn, but what you wrote was:

I'm pointing out that there are significant differences!

I'd imagine that in practice you don't actually belay someone as if you were watching them on an auto-belay, but you're the one who presented them as equivalent.

Yup. You are, in fact, participating. Regardless of whether it's fun or not (probably not), you are involved.

Clearly you've got formidable powers if you were able to warp me in such a short period of time!

But nope, I was warped to begin with. When can we go back to Agden?

That would be taking the pee.  Never seen that happen thankfully

Happened at my wall last week only it was two kids using the only two auto-belays.

Get yourself some belay glasses, well worth the money.

There seems to be agreement that walls can charge however they want, but that there might be an economic argument to not charging for adults belaying children (they are likely to attend more often, buy lots of drinks etc). The wall will have to decide whether they value this demographic, and whether the current pricing is putting parent/child combos off. If so a reduced or free "belayer" entry would be appropriate, but still might not be worth the hassle.

There is definitely disagreement as to whether a belaying only adult is participating. Personally I think that if you step onto the matting and wear a harness then it is pretty clear that you are participating in the climbing activity, but I understand why others disagree. This creates a sense of unfairness, that the wall is charging for an adult who feels they are not actually involved.

Ultimately there is no moral argument that you can make that the wall is obliged to give you free entry, but you can appeal to their sense of charity (supporting youth climbing) or their economic sense (that they will lose income when you vote with your feet).

From a comment much earlier, it seemed that the reason for charging everyone was that they weren't able to monitor who claimed to be only belaying but then grabbed aa sneaky few routes. 

A pity then that others ie. the parents in this case end up suffering.

Of course it's relevant. It's related to some of the costs of the upkeep of the wall, the less the ropes are used, the longer the draws last, the less cleaning required etc. The much reduced weight of a kid probably helps here too. Lots of walls offer discounts if you're only going to be there for a shorter amount of time too and where one climber is climbing throughout they're probably going to have completed their session earlier.

You can't tell with two random climbers that they're going to be doing less climbing than average but you certainly can with an adult and a kid. 

That's probably very true, but I'm almost certain that each kid on average (they're not all comp climbers you know) does not do more climbing than the average pair of adult climbers. 

I don't think it's a case of entitlement, but there's clearly a precedent set by the majority of walls, and this wall wasn't very clear to newcomers that it departed from this precedent. The management appear to have made this clearer as a result of this thread which can only be a good thing. Why not try to avoid disappointing visitors? 

If people still want to pay £16 to belay a child then that's fine by me. 

Easy fix ~ "non paying" belayers must wear flippers on their feet, try climbing in those ;~)_

This point about participating that some people want to make is a bit completely ridiculous. Is there a sport called Belaying? Were there ever any Belaying mags? Are there any Belayers forums? Were Indoor climbing walls with routes built because of a demand from people who want to belay, or who want to climb? So where are the indoor belaying centres with belaying walls where robot climbers go up a wall just so that people can queue up to go belaying ( and of course if they want a real climber to belay, should that climber have to pay to climb, as after all they'd only be doing that climbing to allow someone to enjoy belaying?....let's not go to there!) I don't think there are any, or they went bust on day1, or quickly realised, luckily, just by chance there was another sport called climbing, and they could instead be climbing centres with virtually no changes (well, they could add a few autobelays which there was no demand for before!) and so quickly saved their own skins. There is no sport of belaying is there.... It can actually be bit of a chore, but some of you want someone to pay for it like it's an activity in its own right? 

Compare to the costs of being in the swimming pool helping someone swim but not swimming or helpng someone in the gym and not using the kit. Its normal for those using any indoor sport facilities to be charged. The kindness of most  climbing centres is an exception 

It's not about that, it's simply about the fact that at most sports facilities the charge is for admission, not what you actually do in there.  You have to pay for a swim even if all you're doing is teaching your kid to swim rather than enjoying the facilities yourself.  You have to pay for the gym even if you're just spotting or assisting someone another way rather than working out yourself.

Crikey, moving away from sports facilities, if some parents take their kids to Alton Towers but have no intention of going on any of the rides they still have to pay full whack to get in.

Some walls don't charge, but the norm outside of climbing is certainly to charge for each person that goes in.

Once managed to lead Minus Ten HVS at Stoney in a pair of 'frogmans' flippers! That bet got me free beer for a weekend, well worth the effort!

I totally agree with you. However, you can belay for free at Stanage or the Roaches at the moment if you don't mind there's no heating, lighting, toilet facilities or roof over your head to keep you dry etc.

It's not 'kindness', it's a sound commercial decision in most parts of the country. In London it obviously isn't.

Its only a sound commercial decision above kindness if money is the main motive driving walls. I think it's mostly kindnes and some commercial sense behind it.