UKC

Accident at Robs ice fall, Red Screes?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 Baron Weasel 06 Jan 2021

I've been up to Red Screes this evening for a quick solo of Robs ice fall (20min drive for exercise by myself within covid guidelines). Anyway, it was so good I climbed it a second time and down climbed the grade II variation start and noticed some blood and some gear for lowering off.

First off I hope you are OK and secondly if you want your gear back send me a message with your address and what the gear was and I'll post it to you. 

BW 

29
 Baron Weasel 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Baron Weasel likes dislikes.

3 so far

20
Gone for good 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Don't worry about it. I'm sure plenty of people dislike the thought of coming across smears of blood and abandoned gear on the hillside. There is no point in trying to second guess a dislike or like, who knows what people are thinking. 

6
 FamSender 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

"Climbing and walking appears to be acceptable as a form of exercise under current guidance, but only if it can be done within your local area, you should not travel outside your local area, defined as “the village, town, or part of the city where you live"

Do what you like mate, but dont go claiming you are within covid guidelines.

67
 crayefish 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

We're all just jealous that we don't live so close to an ice fall

I've tried leaving the tap running on the top floor on cold days, but its just not the same...

1
 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to FamSender:

would that be guidance from the man who prorogued parliament or from the scientists?

I will do nothing to catch or spread COVID but I am not bound by deliberate government obfuscation and arbitrary rules

53
 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wercat:

or the man who threatend to break an international agreement, the man who ignored the head of public health in Cumbria.  The man who encouraged whoopee over Christmas and who permitted the Sout East to Bring Covid to Cumbria?

Get real

37
In reply to wercat:

You seem to be saying two wrongs make a right and that because you think Johnson is an idiot (join the queue), that some other things he's said, and you also don't like, they can be ignored? 

5
 FamSender 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wercat:

> would that be guidance from the man who prorogued parliament or from the scientists?

> I will do nothing to catch or spread COVID but I am not bound by deliberate government obfuscation and arbitrary rules

Did you read my post?

8
 Wainers44 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wercat:

> or the man who threatend to break an international agreement, the man who ignored the head of public health in Cumbria.  The man who encouraged whoopee over Christmas and who permitted the Sout East to Bring Covid to Cumbria?

> Get real

And you repeat this idea that the covid was imported by London based visitors once again, and again I ask you what that theory is based on?

In Cornwall the timing of their rapid rise in infections does mean a potential link to visitors arriving just before Christmas.  But the increase in Lakes cases seemed to be happening before that? The fact that Eden was first and most badly affected also doesn't make sense with it being all down to visitors does it?

 Sans-Plan 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

From what i can see (I haven't checked it all) it looks like they seem to have changed the guidance and have removed the "village, town, city" part of the guidance and now state "local area" it now reads:

"This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)"

Admittedly this wouldn't justify getting into Great End from Kendal, Keswick etc, but i'm sure some people will twist it to mean that, why they can't quantify what a "short" distance is is beyond me....

In reply to Sans-Plan:

> From what i can see (I haven't checked it all) it looks like they seem to have changed the guidance and have removed the "village, town, city" part of the guidance and now state "local area" it now reads:

> "This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)"

> Admittedly this wouldn't justify getting into Great End from Kendal, Keswick etc, but i'm sure some people will twist it to mean that, why they can't quantify what a "short" distance is is beyond me....

I suppose the necessary and the reasonable bits of the legislation take care of that*.

If you're driving about the Lakes to take exercise I think you're on a sticky wicket. There's countryside to reasonably exercise from the doorstep of most towns and villages. Travelling is necessary to do that? Nah, not buying it.

*I'm being led to believe that the reasonable and necessary bits of the legislation are a quirk of how our system works. 

Post edited at 10:36
 Sans-Plan 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I will be doing the right thing. It's just disappointing that yet again they leave an open door for people to interpret it and abuse it, they need to adopt the Scottish or French approach and dictate what travel is and isn't acceptable so it can be enforced sensibly.

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In reply to Sans-Plan:

In case there was any confusion, and I think you read through what I wrote, it wasn't aimed at you. 

Desperate to not use terms like 'the right thing' but I know where you're coming from. 

 crayefish 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

With so many morals in one place, we could start a religion!

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 Sans-Plan 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> In case there was any confusion, and I think you read through what I wrote, it wasn't aimed at you. 

yep, I see that, was just a general reply

In reply to Sans-Plan:

> yep, I see that, was just a general reply

You got a dislike. Not from me. Go figure. 

2
 Offwidth 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Wainers44:

The new variant started in the SE and got to the NW somehow and seemingly too fast for multiple local hops. Lots of people have anecdotally reported Londoners escaping to holiday homes.

Back in March hundreds of thousands left Paris seemingly to avoid a lockdown, from mobile phone data. In doing so spreading covid across the nation.

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 Sans-Plan 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Yeah, i saw that, there is some weird people around these parts.

 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Not at all, but I know how not to catch COVID - I am asthmatic with persistent chest problems.  I have made sure I have almost zero social contact in the last year apart from radio and medical necessity because of that.  I am not suggesting I do any wrong that makes another wrong right.  Simply that after 60 odd years I know now not to accept arbitrary rules while still acting for the public good.  Some of these rules have zero rationale or scientific backing - the message is "ZERO SOCIAL CONTACT except for the essential" and that is what I have practiced for nearly a year ( I was ill from beginning December to end March last year with a respiratory illness but in the time since I began to get better I have not touched a single gatepost or other artefact in the outdoors other than with gloves, including easy scrambles.  I have not been climbing - those of you that went climbing other than solo in the summer and autumn have done more to spread COVID than anything I've done, as has the government's eat out to help out which simply helped the affluent to justify themselves in behaviour which is now acknowledged to have increased infection rates.  I will keep myself and others safe.

I know charlatans when I see them and charlatan rules are not for the public good

Post edited at 12:24
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 Wainers44 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> The new variant started in the SE and got to the NW somehow and seemingly too fast for multiple local hops. Lots of people have anecdotally reported Londoners escaping to holiday homes.

> Back in March hundreds of thousands left Paris seemingly to avoid a lockdown, from mobile phone data. In doing so spreading covid across the nation.

The same should have been seen in Cornwall at the same time then, and as the background infection rate in the Duchy was way lower than the NW it should have been even more pronounced. However this didn't happen at the same time.

Second home ownership down there is at least as popular in the coastal areas as it is the Lakes, maybe even more so? 

We are all now expected to stay put where we are. Rightly so. I think that blaming visitors for the problem of increased infections can create an unhelpful " its not us, its them..." excuse which the irresponsible use for justifying their behaviour (not meaning anyone on this thread BTW).

In reply to wercat:

> Not at all, but I know how not to catch COVID - I am asthmatic with persistent chest problems.  I have made sure I have almost zero social contact in the last year apart from radio and medical necessity because of that.  I am not suggesting I do any wrong that makes another wrong right.  Simply that after 60 odd years I know now not to accept arbitrary rules while still acting for the public good.

I think I remember some of your posts from earlier lockdowns, hope you're doing OK. 

> I know charlatans when I see them and charlatan rules are not for the public good

Could you clarify as to your meaning of this? Are you saying the rule/guidance/law is somehow bogus and/or with other intent? 

(You got a dislike. Not from me.) 

Post edited at 12:25
In reply to the thread:

So, the abandoned gear then...?

1
 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

clarification - the government should not have made a load of fiddly and arbitrary guidelines which are not even aligned with their somewhat oddly diktat and unclear regulations.

The guidance and regulations should not place arbitrary limits on individuals day to day activities within their local area (which should not be limited to a village setting, or a town etc.   The law should absolutely clamp down on non-essential social contact of any form and make it clear that that is the intent, purpose and wording all being aligned.  There is simply no legal or jurisprudential sense in making statements as "One Form of exercise per day".   People should be free within the limit of not being allowed to do anything to spread disease.

I have form on reading legislation having an ancient law degree so I'm not completely ignorant of these things.

To be clear I think access to local outdoors is good for wellbeing and as I've already outlived my father's early death from heart attack by some years I regard it as everyone's duty to stay as fit as they can to reduce the pre COVID burden on the NHS.  I would not criticise anyone from seeking the outdoors for any length of time per day within their local area (council district/health area or what have you?) - The problem comes when people travel far enough that they are likely to interact with others out of area- petrol, food, drink and of course the major one - accommodation.  Plus that does not include idiots going out and needing to be rescued because they have driven into a snowdrift for a day out when there are clear indications of serious winter weather affecting the roads.

Post edited at 12:35
2
In reply to wercat:

> clarification - the government should not have made a load of fiddly and arbitrary guidelines which are not even aligned with their somewhat oddly diktat and unclear regulations.

> The guidance and regulations should not place arbitrary limits on individuals day to day activities within their local area (which should not be limited to a village setting, or a town etc.   The law should absolutely clamp down on non-essential social contact of any form and make it clear that that is the intent, purpose and wording all being aligned.  There is simply no legal or jurisprudential sense in making statements as "One Form of exercise per day".   People should be free within the limit of not being allowed to do anything to spread disease.

> I have form on reading legislation having an ancient law degree so I'm not completely ignorant of these things.

You are who I remember. I'm not inclined or knowledgeable enough to go backwards and forwards on what you say. We can agree no doubt it's a fudge*.

I'd take issue with one thing perhaps: where we're at now with the impact from too relaxed a Xmas, it's not just about stopping transmission now (though that's always a given). The imperative, surely, is no additional strain on the NHS or additional services? Even to being as ludicrously careful of walking down the stairs!

*From a legal expert view, why is legislation often written so wooly?

Edit: you've added some to your original post which partly aligns with what I've just written. 

Post edited at 12:44
In reply to Wainers44:

> The same should have been seen in Cornwall at the same time then, and as the background infection rate in the Duchy was way lower than the NW it should have been even more pronounced. However this didn't happen at the same time.

Yes it did, Cornwall's cases have rocketed just after those in the SE. Offwidth was talking about the new variant reaching the NW.  You are right with the March 'lockdown escape' though, it would be interesting to know what saved Cornwall then.

In reply to Offwidth:

Everyone is always looking for bogey man, and someone to blame. I can't help think that's how we ended up with the current mess we are in. The new variant was around since November,  the blame is squarely at the feet of those in charge. 

Anecdotally of course, my friends who run in a pub in the lakes were moaning constantly about the number of scousers in the lakes, which again seemed to be their bogey man. 

Also, can't help but add all the people I know who escaped London during the current lockdown were returning to their parents houses in the north, which I guess could be called their second homes, but I can tell you now they certainly don't identify as londoners.

1
 Wainers44 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Toerag:

> Yes it did, Cornwall's cases have rocketed just after those in the SE. Offwidth was talking about the new variant reaching the NW.  You are right with the March 'lockdown escape' though, it would be interesting to know what saved Cornwall then.

Well no, it didn't quite then, it has now. 

The increase in Eden etc took off in the weeks before Christmas and got progressively worse. Cornwall's charge was materially later. Like you I wonder why different places which seem to "suffer" (?) from the same visitor influx fair so differently. 

There were plenty of visitors in Cornwall from the SE in the hols,  despite this not being allowed as they were already tier 4. Before the tiers changed we did have one quick trip over the border to walk the dog on a beach. The accents were all pretty plain, as were all the plush vehicles (sorry that's my conscious unconscious bias coming out there...).

Maybe werecat is right and the migration north happened before the one to the west causing the earlier rise in numbers? Still doesn't explain why Eden came first, which i wouldn't call one of the most visited areas?

 Offwidth 07 Jan 2021
In reply to SFrancis:

I'm not blaming them as such nor could  I define what a londoner identity is given how diverse the city is; it would certainly include regional based people visiting London keen to not get stuck there. The main issue is the behaviour is well known and the risk of spread from the SE very serious and very urgent, so must have been part of SAGE and the government messed things up and should take most blame. Right from the start most of us commenting that the data meant we needed stronger action favoured a uniform English response (most who understood wintertree's plots favoured an immediate national lockdown). 

Post edited at 14:18
 Baron Weasel 07 Jan 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> So, the abandoned gear then...?

No one has been in touch about it yet. 

 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> Admittedly this wouldn't justify getting into Great End from Kendal, Keswick etc, 

It's you who are doing the twisting if you think that says Keswick and Great End aren't in the same area.  And no, I don't live near Keswick.

1
 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Sans-Plan:


You can walk to Great End from Keswick and people have!

1
 Baron Weasel 07 Jan 2021
In reply to FamSender:

> "Climbing and walking appears to be acceptable as a form of exercise under current guidance, but only if it can be done within your local area, you should not travel outside your local area, defined as “the village, town, or part of the city where you live"

> Do what you like mate, but dont go claiming you are within covid guidelines.

Have you got a link to this??

The guidelines I read are these: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising

 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I agree, it's no time to aggravate risks.  Again, all year I've carried walking poles not to use them routinely but because I have used them in the past to self-rescue and not require help when I dislocated my ankle miles from the road on Skye.  Gerry Akroyd and his group smirked at the state I was in but I still got back under my own steam.  So yes, I'm very careful and that comes of from nearly 4 decades of being alone in the hills.

As I've got older I've altered my routines to stay safe and comfortable as I feel the cold more quickly.  Staying hillfit is one way I won't end up in a heart unit or A & E or obesity clinic but I don't go outside N Cumbria, nor have I in the last year except for university dropoff/pickup and a car safety recall for fire danger (we got a final warning from DVLA as we'd put it off so long because of the pandemic and as there is no longer a dealer in Penrith (where the previous 2 reworks for the same fault had been bodged) we had to go for a totally joyless COVID limited trip to Kendal and kill time in the cold socially distancing)

Post edited at 14:53
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 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

those guidelines are typical of people who are convinced they are making things clearer when in fact it just becomes more ambiguous the more they say ....

Just - Don't Socialise - behave as if the Andromeda Strain is out there!

1
 Sans-Plan 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

> Have you got a link to this??

I thought they had changed it but it still detailed on the page you linked to under travel, still says village, town, city.

"You must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the number of journeys you make overall"

Post edited at 14:53
 FamSender 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

What i quoted was from the bmc, but they are just quoting what it says in that link you added. The bit about village, town, part of city is at the top under Leaving Home.

This has blown up (doesn't it always)

I dont care what people get up to if they arent spreading or harming others. It just grinds my gears when people say 'What im doing is within the guidelines' when it isn't. What you are doing is outside the guidelines but you have decided its OK. Say that. 

Post edited at 15:14
2
In reply to wercat:

> I agree, it's no time to aggravate risks.  Again, all year I've carried walking poles not to use them routinely but because I have used them in the past to self-rescue and not require help when I dislocated my ankle miles from the road on Skye.  Gerry Akroyd and his group smirked at the state I was in but I still got back under my own steam.  So yes, I'm very careful and that comes of from nearly 4 decades of being alone in the hills.

> As I've got older I've altered my routines to stay safe and comfortable as I feel the cold more quickly.  Staying hillfit is one way I won't end up in a heart unit or A & E or obesity clinic but I don't go outside N Cumbria, nor have I in the last year except for university dropoff/pickup and a car safety recall for fire danger (we got a final warning from DVLA as we'd put it off so long because of the pandemic and as there is no longer a dealer in Penrith (where the previous 2 reworks for the same fault had been bodged) we had to go for a totally joyless COVID limited trip to Kendal and kill time in the cold socially distancing)

Enjoy and stay healthy werecat. 👍 

1
 Baron Weasel 07 Jan 2021
In reply to FamSender:

> It just grinds my gears when people say 'What im doing is within the guidelines' when it isn't. 

I'm looking after my mental health as we as my physical health. I don't mean this in a nasty way, but you might need to look after your mental health too. These lockdowns are taking their toll on people including my wife and son. The biggest risk factor for me is working with a covid denier and there's not much I can do about it unfortunately. 

2
 FamSender 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Good stuff. Never had a problem with your day out. 

 Baron Weasel 07 Jan 2021
In reply to FamSender:

Day? I was out from 6.45 to 9.30pm.

I'm spending my days avoiding the dickhead that can't see the point in wearing a mask and social distancing. 

1
 Billhook 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

You might wish to read the bit on travel - its a bit further down the page.  Thats assuming you need to travel get to your 'exercise'.

Here it is:-

"Travel

You must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live" 

12
 wercat 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Billhook:

the order to prorogue Parliament was expressed in words too, as was the tory Bill to disregard international law, and I dare say all of the contracts with the cronies phonies to provide PPE based on no previous experience.  It does not mean they are right and I am using my careful judgement, not phoney guidance webfuscatories to prevent infecting others and to prevent my already weakened chest from catching it.

8
 wercat 07 Jan 2021

My own judgement in this is sounder than career politician juniors (not the scientists of course) who told Cumbria to keep its schools open on Monday!!!!

4
 Baron Weasel 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wercat:

I didn't send my 7 year old to school on Monday. 

2
In reply to wercat:

I can only agree with your approach of using sound reasoning and rational judgement instead of blindly following the latest decree from King Boris I. I've mostly tried the same since March, encouraged by the fact that the government don't consider it important enough that they're willing to support all of those they've prevented from working, leaving random and inexplicable holes through which many have fallen. As I've been left to self-fund a 12 month holiday, I refuse to spend it blindly following the other bizarre crap that flows regularly out of Westminster. So, no trips to essential stores like B&Q or Decathlon, but yes to remaining active outdoors well within my capabilities. Including climbing.

Unfortunately, vast swathes of the population don't seem to be able to be trusted to exercise their own sound judgement, hence the need for some variety of sweeping decree.

Something about guidance, obedience, wise men and fools?

10
 Burly Swan 07 Jan 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

Shotgun....

1
 wercat 08 Jan 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

that is a really good summary of what we should do as responsible people

1
 Nigel Coe 08 Jan 2021
In reply to wercat:

> Just - Don't Socialise - behave as if the Andromeda Strain is out there!

Didn't the andromeda strain mutate into something harmless? A crap ending for a book, but wish it would happen with covid!

 wercat 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Nigel Coe:

yes but the build up before the end was good!  And that crap ending, as you say, is exactly what we need!

1
 bouldery bits 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Please can I have my ice screw and warthog back?

:P

1
 DaveHK 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Thread:

Disappointing to see that some people are still totally committed to giving others a really hard time for doing things that make absolutely hee haw difference to the Covid infection rates.

Someone driving a few miles to solo a short route might well be against the rules but it's not what's driving the pandemic. That'll be people sharing indoor space either because they have to like students or because they choose to like all the Muppets that had big Christmas gatherings.

I say crack on Baron Weasel, the only damage you're doing is to the blood pressure of those who think that slavish adherence to the latest rules is the key.

Post edited at 18:05
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 Baron Weasel 08 Jan 2021
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Please can I have my ice screw and warthog back?

> :P

I've been waiting for a response like this, can't believe it's taken this long! 

 bouldery bits 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

> I've been waiting for a response like this, can't believe it's taken this long! 

I was a bit surprised as well.

Grivel I think? 

 bonebag 08 Jan 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

With you on that one DaveHK.

2
 bonebag 08 Jan 2021
In reply to wercat:

To be clear I think access to local outdoors is good for wellbeing and as I've already outlived my father's early death from heart attack by some years I regard it as everyone's duty to stay as fit as they can to reduce the pre COVID burden on the NHS.

Likewise for my wife and I wercat.

1
 DaveHK 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Ooh this is tense. Who's going to win the like/dislike battle on my post? The libertarians or 'team rules is rules'?  

1
 crayefish 09 Jan 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

I think on ratios my post is winning 😁

This is entertaining reading I must say.

In reply to wercat:

I disagree with your affluent comments. Unless you think that people in Bradford and Kirklees are generally affluent, huge numbers of people I work with there were eating out to help out multiple times a week because it was cheaper than eating the deliveroo meals that they order regularly. Not affluent people any of them by any stretch of the imagination. 

1
 Hat Dude 09 Jan 2021
In reply to wercat:

> You can walk to Great End from Keswick and people have!

Bloody hell it's bad enough walking to Great End from Seathwaite!

 wercat 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Hat Dude:

no such thing as sore feet, just bad boots ... (paraphrase of a silly saying)

1
In reply to Sans-Plan:

 why they can't quantify what a "short" distance is is beyond me....

I imagine that Einstein would have been able to sort you out?

In reply to Offwidth:

I would be interested to see some data on second home ownership of Londoners. I would have thought that South Devon and the Suffolk Coast would be far more popular for Londoners.


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