UKC

Hi Lads ,

I’m heading to Chamonix for 2 weeks in September . I have no experience in snow / winter / summer alpine.

I had considered doing a course based around introduction but in the end have decided to go with a guide for the two weeks .

There are two of use going and there will be a total of 6 days climbing with days off in-between to do what ever we want / recover .

Perhaps this is an odd way to introduce your self to alpine climbing but that’s how were doing it.

We both climb at about HVS/E1 and are fit (ish) , lots of multi pitch experience also .

The plan this summer is to refine the E1’s and get more hill fit .

My question is what should be the expectations for the trip . I have to get back to the guide with a wish list and he is going to review it and let use know if we are dreaming or not.

I know the first few days will probably need to be mostly skills based activities but Ideally we would like to do mixed routes that required pitched climbing and the use of crampons and tools.

Id love a few recommendations for good routes at our level as I have no idea were to start.

I have the Rockafax book and have been looking at routes like ‘vent du dragon TD’ . Is this grade/route too ambitious?

Thanks for reading. 

In reply to discosucks:

After five days of easier stuff I'm sure you could build up to Vent du Dragon on top rope with a competent guide, even if you've never used tools before. Personally I would rather use my time learning to lead easier ground, M5 is no pushover (and to me feels equivalent on lead to around E2 in terms of difficulty, but others will have their own opinions).

Whether Vent du Dragon has enough ice in September is a different question. 

In reply to discosucks:

Your day on/ day off plan sounds quite sensible, for fitness and acclimatising , but does it allow for hut walks to count as days off? Otherwise you might be limited to routes that are doable from the valley in a day. 

You might need to choose between rock routes at your grades (TD ish) but with dry (= snow-free) approaches, or longer mixed routes at lower grade where you’d be learning to climb in crampons.

The big advantage of going in September (my plan too!) is the chance to get really fit over the summer. For the Alps, hill-walking fitness with boots and rucsacs will usually be more use than polishing your rock technique.

In reply to discosucks:

If you want some route suggestions I did something similar a few years ago. Routes my friends enjoyed most included arete des papillon (great multi-pitch rock climb) and arete des cosmique (mixed route).

Enjoy you're trip!

In reply to discosucks:

Noobs love the cosmique arete! seriously great views of the surrounding peaks with a little technical climbing thrown in, on wonderous golden granite,  a great introduction, these are the sort of routes you should consider to learn how to move on easy but exposed terrain.  

In reply to discosucks:

Having a few ideas in mind is a good start but bear in mind that the climbs you do will also be totally dependent on conditions and weather. ( Man plans, God laughs !) It also sounds as if all your routes are likely to be one day hits. If the weather is unstable you may be better doing routes from the valley using the excellent lift system as you can make the most of snatched opportunities, change objectives, and even area, quite quickly. If the weather is stable you may find it useful, if you are acclimatised sufficiently, to base yourselves somewhere like the Cosmiques Hut where the guide can show you the basics and build up your skills and knowledge but there are also routes you could do independently between your guided days. I'm sure your guide will advise you well, as well as the lads and lasses of UKC.

In reply to discosucks:

It depends what you're long term aims are. If you want to be independant on your next trip, then you should spend this one doing easier routes, trying to learn from you guide as much as possible. You'll want to learn the skills when you're not being pushed to the max. Arete de Table on Aiguille du Tour and Domes de Miage traverse would make good alpine routes in September, where you'll learn about glacier travel, dealing with exposure, etc. In terms of rock, Papillons Arete and Perrons Ridge would be great to learn and practice moving together. You'll still have a great time on all of these. 

Alternatively if you want to be pushed to the max, and likely not learn as much, then I'd just let the guide decide, as he/she will know what will be best given the conditions. 

Hope you have a great trip, and let us know if you have any other questions!

In reply to discosucks:

Wouldn't it be better to turn the question around? Tell the guide your abilities and alpine shortcomings, tell him which basic alpine skills you'd like to learn and practise along the way, and ask him for a flexible list of suggestions which he can then adjust depending on conditions and on how he assesses your capability and fitness on the first day. 

In reply to discosucks: Key thing is to be flexible and climb what is in condition rather than what is on your list, if your very lucky you’ll get a route that is both. In September as a generalisation mixed routes are harder to come by as the snow and ice cover is reduced, so you’ll need to stay high? Possibilities:

Arete des Cosmiques (AD 3)

Kuffner Ridge (D 4c)

You could finish the trip off with Trois Monts Route (PD+), not particularly hard technically but it takes you to the summit of Mount Blanc, and if you want to be an Alpine Climber it’s got to be on the list.

As others have said, your guide will be able to steer you in the right direction.

In reply to Suncream:

Thanks Suncream , I hadn't really considered route conditions when booking this trip , Is there a rule of thumb for the best time to visit the area? 

In reply to rsc:

Not really sure on that one , To be honest the plan is still fluid enough so we can move dates around I think if there needs to be a day for walk ins/outs. 

Ya the plan is to get proper fit this summer , as you said fitness in the hills is something I want to be spot on before going. 

In reply to discosucks:

The season for snow and mixed routes has changed considerably over the last 20 years. Unless the summer is wet and cold then many formerly classic mixed routes are unclimbable in august.

Another issue is if there is a 2 week hot spell with the 0 degree isotherm over 4000m then the risks of catastrophic rockfall in the 3-4000m range caused by melting permafrost are greatly increased.

This is worth bearing in mind when picking routes.

In reply to LakesWinter:

Thanks Lakes , 

we are going to be there for the last last week of September / first week of October , Hope this means we're more likely to get cooler conditions? 

In reply to Martin Haworth:

These look great , Mount Blanc wasn't on the list but this route looks fantastic.

In reply to discosucks:

Yes sometimes that can be a better bet than August - I hope it works out well for you.

In reply to LakesWinter:

Hi. Sorry to jump in, where can I find the isotherm forecast for the Mont Blanc Massif please? Found Chamonix Meteo but only has the isotherm for the current day. Is that how forecastable it is? Cheers

In reply to discosucks:

For me it’s interesting to compare how people over the years got into alpinism. None of my generation could possibly afford a guide or pay for instruction. They could barely afford food. However, often with shit gear they used to pole up at Snells and set to. My friend from our caving club did the Walker as his first route under winter conditions. His next route was a solo of the Gervassutti couloir. Representatives of those generations went on to have a massive effect on world mountaineering. So why, if you have aspirations,  do you have to face imaginary constraints and climb easy routes, when you can apply common sense, go at your own speed and learn on the job. This is particularly salient given on line information and tutorials. I’m not criticising guided ascents, just making an observation between then and now. I well remember Silvo Karo saying to me he thought UK climbers had gone soft

.

In reply to thegrowler1981:

Hi, it's as forecastable as the weather in general, so you can get a reasonable idea for about 5 days ahead. Look at www.wetterzentrale.de

Look at the ECM forecast and change the layer to 850hpa. If the Alps is under 20 degree temperature at 850hpa then the 0 degree isotherm is around 4000m. This can be ok if the overnight conditions promote refreezing (clear skies, no wind) and if it only lasts a day or 2.

If the 25 degree temperature line is over the alps then you are in le canicule and a full on heatwave is underway.

In reply to Philb1950:

Still plenty of UK climbers going at it hard in the Alps and greater ranges. 

In reply to LakesWinter:

Thank you sir 👍

In reply to TechnoJim:

Yes I know that and long may it last. I was making a comparison between the  past and present as to how people commence their alpine journeys. 

In reply to Philb1950:

Indeed, and it's an interesting comparison. I just thought the snippy quote about UK climbers going soft was way off the mark.

In reply to discosucks:

If you follow CSowdens advice and try the Arete de Table on Aiguille du Tour its worth checking out the way to the correct starting bay the day before.  You'll have plenty of time before you bivi for the night and its much easier to find in the daylight than at 4am in the dark!

In reply to TechnoJim:

Going soft wasn’t my comment. It was Silvo Karo who made the observation when we were reminiscing over a beer about past climbs. He is Slovenian, so perhaps he had a hard early life when Slovenia was part of Yugoslavia. Certainly things used to be harder for me personally as well, with quite a bit of home made gear, no money for trains, telepheriques or huts etc. First time I went to Patagonia I had $50US for a two month stay and ended up hitching back to Buenos Aires to catch a plane. All good though!

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Second the suggestion of cosmique arete, it may be overly touristy and other issues, but you will be in totally new territory in a first alpine trip, so start with a more predictable classic like this and then you'll be able to decide and plan based on some actual experience thereafter.

Note suncream's username... That's something to be taken seriously, get badly burned (because you only used normal factor 30 on your forehead and nose at the start of the day) and you might ruin the rest of your trip, my brother did that (against my advice!) Same issues with having decent glasses

In reply to Philb1950:

The problem with going at your own speed and learning on the job is that it may take far longer, and what you pick up may not be the best way of doing things.  The OP will probably learn in two weeks with a guide what could take them several seasons to pick up for themselves.

If it were me, I would prefer that the money went on learning all-round alpine skills and techniques rather than on being hauled up routes which would otherwise be beyond me.  I would make sure the guide understands my broad objectives and he can then choose suitable routes.  By all means have one or two routes to aspire to, but they should not be the main purpose, which should be to get a good grounding in alpinism to allow them to become self-sufficient on future trips.