UKC

Dave MacLeod has made a winter ascent of The Hurting, a summer E4 6a in Coire an t Sneachda on Cairngorm. After abseiling down the climb with a view to headpointing it, Dave decided it might be possible to climb without toproping. On his first attempt Dave came within three moves of flashing it but fell when a hook ripped. Three days later on Feb 19th he completed the climb on his second attempt, in very poor weather conditions (classic Scottish blizzard and gales and verglassed cracks). Dave has given the route XI,11 and given that it featured very tenuous M9+ or M10 wall climbing with groundfall potential has tentatively suggested that it could be the hardest single pitch traditional mixed climb in the world!

UKC News - http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to UKC News: Dave gave us a preview of his climb at the Fort William Mountain Film Festival the day after his first attempt on it. With typical understatement and enthusiasm he described the climbing and commitment involved in the climb. I have no doubt this is one of the hardest traditional winter routes in the world. Congratulations to Dave.

In reply to UKC News:

Another top performance by the man.

To almost flash it is fairly incredible. Awesome climbing.

when will it be repeated though? and by who?

In reply to UKC News: Dave MacLeod is something else and doesn't get nearly enough credit for the stuff he has done.
He also comes across as very modest, approachable, and is willing to stick his neck out on public forums to help people like me debate and understand modern issues. That is commendable in it's own right.

Great effort, the difficulties of which I can't even begin to comprehend.

Well done.

In reply to yer maw:

Wonder what the reaction would have been if Scott had done this route?

T

In reply to Goatster:
Ha ha ha!!

In reply to Goatster:I suspect we'd get a supercharged, full-on booyaka stylee promotion of it which would have antagonised everyone.

In reply to Goatster:

Is he good enough to climb this route?

In reply to SimonW: Hehehe don't know - may as well lead to the pearly gates at that grade, thats where I'd wind up at that grade.

Seriously good effort though, more groundbreaking climbing from Mr McCleod.

I get very confused with the grades nowadays can someone explain this bit of the description:

"Dave has given the route XI,11 and given that it featured very tenuous M9+ or M10 wall climbing"

The XI bit is fine but how does the M grade get in there?

T

In reply to Goatster: M grade is to further clirify the pure technical aspects of the climbing. (which the 11 bit should do anyway) Good effort......not such a winter of discontent ;@)

In reply to Alasdair Fulton: Well this is were I get confused, I would normally look at an M grade as a route which climbs rock, with crampons and axes, to reach ice - usually a detached curtain. So if this route is of that ilk then why not say it is Scotlands first "Mwhatever " grade instead of giving it a Scottish grade?

Whichever I wont be climbing it in this lifetime

regards
Tony

In reply to Goatster:
Dear Goatster

His name is Mr Dave MacLeod, by the way. He is not an American TV detective.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: Yes I saw the spelling mistake, just cant edit once I posted. Was the american detective called Dave, I thought it was Marshal.

T

M grades are for bolt protected mixed climbs including rock and ice, they do not have to be rock, followed by a hanging curtain of ice, this is merely the most common type of M -climb.


Dave's route is a trad route with all gear placed on lead, no pegs, bolts or aid. I think he gave a subsequent M grade to compare it to the difficulty of the mixed europeam routes, such as misson impossible M11 (in other words, ths route is technically almost as hard as the hardest bolt protected mixed routes in the wolrd, yet climbed trad.

It's similar to the summer situation where people climb say a new E9 6c, and also give a french sport grade to clarify the overall dificulty.


It's all a bit strange, but it's a damn good effort anyway.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Thanks for that, I hadnt reckoned on the pro side of things. All clear now.

Not that I'm any nearer to climbing it.

Cheers
T

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Dave's route is a trad route with all gear placed on lead, no pegs, bolts or aid. I think he gave a subsequent M grade to compare it to the difficulty of the mixed europeam routes, such as misson impossible M11 (in other words, ths route is technically almost as hard as the hardest bolt protected mixed routes in the wolrd, yet climbed trad.

A supurb climb- if this grade can be climbed trad even with the massive groundfall potential etc. is there any need for scott muir to go around bolting?? is he not just lacking in balls?

Having said that I would never get even close to that grade and no I don't have the balls for it either...!

In reply to dave_strachan:

If you read the post he says M9+/M10, not M11 and certaninly not M13 which has been climbed in canada and which I would assume is much harder so there is still a place for mixed bolted climbing, especially on rock where there is no natural pro. Whether this is in scotland is another matter.

Great effort and very inspirational.

In reply to dave_strachan:

Dave does seem to have a thing for massive groundfall potential. That new beast he put up last year in Skye is basically unprotected apart from one sling about half-way up. Any failure would have resulted in a big fall onto nasty slabs.

I heard him speak in Edinburgh a few weeks ago, and he does come across as being utterly grounded - sensible, aware of potential, straightforward - but also enormously driven to do increasingly hard stuff, whether it's trad, sports, winter, mixed, or bouldering. At any one of these disciplines he's very very good, but as an all-rounder he's outstanding.

He also had some interesting things to say about Scott's bolts on Beinn Udlaidh - basically he doesn't have a particular problem with them (which is fair, since he did the second ascents of most of the bolted routes)

In reply to smithaldo:

Fair one.... One day when I grow wings, I'll be able to climb this hard and might even be allowed by Scott to have an opinion....

In reply to dave_strachan: well done Dave!

This ascent makes me think back to Logical Progression and The Tempest first ascents. These climbs were made on pre-placed gear and with red-pointing tactics. It was suggested at the time that this was the only way Scottish winter climbing would progress. It is great to see that Dave MacLeod has completely blown this idea out of the water.

It seems to me that traditional Scottish winter climbing is in a very healthy state. It is what has inspired and given the skills to a great number of British super Alpinists for them to make bold and extremely demanding ascents in the greater ranges. With a little experience of modern sports mixed climbing gained abroad and on low level dry tooling crags here, Scottish climbers are now putting up routes at a standard comparable to those in other countries.

In reply to Mike Pescod: First off Mike, I hope you are feeling better and well on the road to recovery.

"traditional Scottish winter climbing "
Do you think not though that as the Scottish Winters are (arguably) changing, the style of climbing is changing. We are seeing more and more climbs less dependant on ice and snow and more dependant on hooking and torching. More and more hard summer lines being done as winter lines. Which in turn I guess will change the nature of climbing, but I think of this more as "modern Scottish winter climbing". Embracing the more european style of climbing is opening up more and more venues/routes for the elite of British climbers and should be accepted as such.

Not sure how far it will go, sooner or later big roofs will be bolted and probably much later they will be climbed free.

Having said that I have completely lost where I was going with this so Ill shut up!

Modern/traditional? Lets just keep the support up either way.

Tony

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

It should be noted that M denotes nothing but the technical difficulty of a mixed pitch. There are plenty of M graded routes around the world which are on trad gear, and it is increasingly common for mountaineers to use an M grades alongside other more traditional grades for mountain routes from Patagonia to the Himalayas.

In reply to Mike Pescod: indeed, especially as several people were witnessed working this line on toprope earlier this winter.

I stand (or sit, in front of my computer) corrected.

I always had the impression M routes were bolted, or is just that most M routes are bolted?

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:


The M grade was popularised by Jeff Lowe in the early 90s after people saw the pictures of Octupussy and started realising that this wasn't really old school hard ice. Octupussy was given M8 basically because it was a step up in technical difficulty at least from the hardest ice climbs of the era which were WI7. Nobody started with an M1 and then M2 if you see what I mean, it was bastardisation of the WI grade. If I remember right Octupussy was on pegs not bolts, at least when Lowe first climbed it.

It has since been popularised for disinguishing mixed routes from pure ice lines, and a lot of the 'new' mixed routes are bolt protected. But have a look in the High Info section over the last couple of years or even more and you see Alpine grades being given like VI WI5 M7 A1 or something.

One day routes will be..... VI WI5 M7 A1 Bo Fr8b+ V2- Font 3 E9 6b 21 UIAAA 9 .. . . . you'll need a degree in climbing grades before they even let yon on the rock /ice hahahah

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Oh how times repeat themselves. A similar idea to Ed Drummund's grading system in his Avon Gorge guide.

In reply to Goatster:
Dear Goatster

I think you are getting mixed up with style and techique.

Dave used the "Scottish traditional" style to get up the route, ground up putting in natural protection. The techique was torquing and hooking. Nothing modern about, his ascent, saying that, he should be commended for the bold climbing. How he is able to climb so hard, is that he trains hard and has ability.

Hopefully Dave can keep going, climbing "big roofs", boltless and free as he did last winter.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:
"ground up putting in natural protection." I personally would say that is just traditional climbing - not necessarily Scottish traditional which to stretch a point would be cutting steps wearing hobnails. But i do think that the way roofs are being opened up is anything but 'Scottish traditional'. Figure 4's, heel spurs, modern axes and a gymnastic approach to climbing are doing this. hence I say 'Modern Scottish climbing'

Agree with everything else, effort and skill are exceptional. I'd just like to see things develop instead of holding on to what once was.

T

In reply to Goatster: If you don't know which route Norrie is refering to when talking about roofs, I don't think you know much about Scottish winter climbing.

The only difference between what you say "once was" and the so called "modern" is bolts. You don't think Scottish climbs need "gymnastic moves"?! Even I've heel hooked on grade Vs and that was ten years ago.

Figure of four away if you want, just don't bolt Scottish mountains. Simple eh?

In reply to TobyA: Not sure why the edge there Toby. I'm interested in moving climbing on, not bolting anything. Personally I wouldnt bolt anything (I have to admit i'd use them if they were there though).

Your arguement seems odd "once was" and the so called "modern" is bolts. " - Not so once upon a time cutting steps was the norm, then came teradactyls and things changed. Now I say we have better tools and climbers are stronger and more gymanstic. This is modern. And I say should be warmly encouraged.

To expand on your other comments :So traditional Scottish Climbing uses heel spurs, (heel hooking is different) Im not sure how you could use a figure 4 on a grade 5 but hey if you can then great, should we stick with straight axes then, is that more traditional? Things move on.

Nowhere in this thread have i supported bolting.

Tony

In reply to Goatster:
I'd just like to see things develop instead of holding on to what once was.
Dear Goatster

You are still mixing up style with technique. Cutting steps is/was technique, not style.

The style of an ascent - traditional, will be here for ever and a day, other styles will come and go. Techniques change, I started cutting steps, then front pointed when that came in. Torquing and hooking was next, this was developed as most of the "big" ice lines were done, so to get up crack line this technique was used.

In my time I have seen change and development in Scottish winter climbing, most but not all for the better. However, what I do want retained in Scottish winter climbing is bold climbing.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Ok I think I understand you, as long as the 'style' as you describe it is 'tradition' ie placing gear fromt eh ground up. the technique may change ie step cutting to figure 4.

If this is correct then yes I agree with you and we should embrace the modern techiques (aka styles )

Tony

In reply to TobyA:
Dear Toby

How right you are, he must have read too many magazines, but picked little up from them.

Norrie

In reply to TobyA:

further:

Goatster: If you don't know which route Norrie is refering to when talking about roofs, I don't think you know much about Scottish winter climbing.

Then I dont know much, I dont read magazines and i dont spend an eternity on here. I go, climb whats there and go home. Life is for living not reading.

I'll never climb these grades and have little interest in reading about them. But I do have an opinion which is as valid as yours.

T

In reply to Norrie Muir: I don't think it has to even be bold all the time. I'm a very cautious climber, I haven't led many very bold routes, even those that are quite easy - but as you say the style is important, ground up and leader placed protection.

People can use spurs, and leashless tools if they like - as Macleod is doing - but that shouldn't be seen as a move toward bolted routes as well which seems to be Scott Muir's position.

In reply to TobyA:

Regardless of anything GOatster has written, these comments come across as pretty flipping pompous, Toby. Knowing what Dave has done recently does not qualify you (one) as someone who knows much about Scottish winter climbing. And vice versa..

In reply to Norrie Muir: Nope, read none and learnt as I go.

T

In reply to Goatster:
Dear Goatster

Away and get on an Introduction to Winter Climbing Course, you might learn something.

Norrie

In reply to Goatster: My point is that Macleod has shown that there are very very hard roof climbs in Scotland that don't need bolts to be climbed. "The Cathedral" simply showed that very very difficult routes can be done in Scotland with out ignoring the traditions that make Scottish climbing special. See Simon Richardson's article in the first edition of Climb - even if you don't normally read the magazines.

I quite like reading actually, although life seems to often get in the way and not leave me with enough time to do it.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

You know Norrie, I'm allways pleased to see a well rounded opinion from someone who knows me and my capabilities.

Toby:
You brought bolting into the debate not me.

regards
T

In reply to Glucose: Well, if you want to discuss the development of "modern" Scottish climbing and "what once was" it seems to me that some knowledge of what is happening in modern Scottish climbing as well as its history seems rather helpful?

In reply to TobyA:

Dear Toby

I wonder if young Scott, will disagree with me that Dave climbed a bold route and by doing it in "traditional" style he isn't advancing Scottish winter climbing?

Norrie

In reply to Goatster:


Okey dokey - no problem then. It just struck me that those (like Muir) talking about developing Scottish winter climbing in new ways - and what is holding it back - normally mean bolts.

In reply to TobyA: Passing comments, I did read about the Cathedral, can t remember it clearly now but again I am talking about to use norries expression 'Style' I call this techique personally but what do I know? Im not pro bolt here.

I was actually saying that I concider the new routes being put up by DM and the like to be modern routes. If you read that as bolted its not through my implication. merely that they are very technical, hard and strenuous.

T

In reply to TobyA:
It just struck me that those (like Muir) talking about developing Scottish winter climbing in new ways - and what is holding it back - normally mean bolts.

Dear Toby

Watch it with the Muir, which one by the way?

Norrie

In reply to TobyA:
Sure, I agree. But that was not what you wrote ! "Development" and "modern" being missing from your earlier comments giving rise to what seemed bloody pompous. If this seems like I'm being pedantic, so be it.

Anyway, back to the thread...

In reply to Goatster: In that case - fair enough, although I would add there are routes from the 80s that I don't think anyone should discount for being brick hard - Red Slab on the Buchaille for example, or the one which was supposedly led by a series of one armed lock-offs - Big Daddy maybe?

I think Macleods routes sound amazing, I'm just not sure what makes them different from routes that went before, or if there is anything besides the weather holding back people from doing more like them.

In reply to Norrie Muir:


The less good looking one, Norrie - not you of course!

In reply to TobyA:

Dear Toby

That is OK then, by the way I have met young Scott, and my wife also thought him good looking.

Norrie

In reply to TobyA:
"I think Macleods routes sound amazing, I'm just not sure what makes them different from routes that went before, or if there is anything besides the weather holding back people from doing more like them."

Agree, I'm not sure there will ever be that many people of that standard - same as any other sport there are winners and also rans, me bing firmly in the also ran bracket.

Personally I find anything over Scottish 4 can be desperate given the right(or wrong if you are there at the time) conditions. Only last year we had an epic on DollyWagon Chimney when the middle pitch went crashing down leaving my mate with a dreadful pitch to contend with, strangley it wasnt that bad on a second.

T

In reply to Goatster, Toby, Norrie et al

OK I know these routes are harder than anything I've climbed or am likely to climb, but how does this new route compare to eg Mort or Guerdon Grooves ?

In reply to Doug:

Dear Doug

All 3 have not been repeated, some longer than others.

Norrie

In reply to UKC News:

In the news article it says Dave Mac only decided to go for the ascent without working it, after an abseil inspection. Is the difference between toproping and ab inspection really all that great? It does sound like he gave up on a true on sight ascent and started to work it by abbing down it. Ethically thats not much different than Logical Progression except that he did not preplace any gear.

In reply to polishcircus:

Of course it is. Think of a boulder problem. You can usually see every move, equivalent to ab inspection of a route (except better since theres less to remember) from the ground. But as we all know, few people flash boulder problems at their limit. Working it is analagous to headpointing a trad or winter route I suppose (ive never done this), so yes of course there is a huge difference.

In reply to all: Thanks for the support. I'll have some pictures of it for a talk in Sheffield on the 13th. Someone asked about the M grade. It's really irrelevant but I just mentioned it in passing because it gives a better picture of how it might relate in terms of the physical/technical difficulty. This is commonplace for hard trad routes ( e.g. parthian shot is F8a+). It a useful thing to know if you want to onsight it.

I know folk like to refer to traditional routes like this as part of an argument to discourage or demean sport style mixed climbing in Scotland. They will find my views dissapointing. I have a background of sport climbing and dry tooling as well as trad and I know that this route would not have been possible without doing sport style mixed, tooling, headpointing etc. If there was more sport style mixed climbing in Scotland (and not abroad - to get good at climbing you have to do it regularly and I for one cant afford to sprnd whole seasons in the alps just to train) I would have climbed a trad route onsight much harder than this already!

dave

In reply to Dave MacLeod:
well done dave- great effort. even norrie seems to approve.
dan

In reply to Dan Gates: Pictures on Scottishclimbs.com:
http://www.scottishclimbs.com/photoresult.php?pid=248&ptid=5&cid=1&...

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

All very silly - nicely done and all that! I swear by my small Camalot, but usually try to get all 4 cams in the rock...

Just out of interest, had you climbed the route in summer before? I'm not one for bashing ethics / putting down ascents, I'm just curious.

In reply to James Jackson:

No. But I had beta from abseiling down it.

In reply to UKC News:

"Hardest single pitch traditional winter route"?

Isn't Flying Circus M10 all on ice screws?

In reply to polishcircus:

Were they placed on lead? Was it climbed ground up, 2nd attempt? etc etc Now knowing the route I don't know, but I'd guess not.

In reply to Mike Pescod: Very nicely put Mike. Traditional Scottish climbing sounds like it is in a great state. Dave is definitely the man to keep pushing it on and I think it's brilliant he has, strong driven enthusiastic bugger that he is.

I can remember a few months ago speaking to a Canadian guide from Banff and he had gone to Banff film festival which was showing the BBC progran "The Edge". He was speaking about Ettle and Anderson climbing White magic. he said it was a revelation to their climbing and all of a sudden folk were out climbing mixed routes (bit drier than ours right enough) and the new climbing lingo was that everyone was speaking about torquing here and torquing there. A word and technique never before used out there.

Anyway keep it up Dave and good to see the pony tail has gone.

Have fun

In reply to RFGA:

It looks like these conditions are likely to last a little while longer. Who knows what else will happen this season. Very good, impressive stuff so far...

In reply to RFGA:


This is surely bollocks. There's been a steady flow of cutting-edge mixed toutes out of the Banff/ Canmore area for the last decade or so, at least.

In reply to tobyfk: and the edge was filmed in around 1992 i believe the 100th anniversary of therebouts of scottish mountaineering at least the SMC and cairngorm club, perhaps a strange coincidence.

jeff lowe reckoned the hardest mixed route in the world after octupussy was the needle climed in 1982.

And anyway a significant number of the rockies mega ice routes were first climbed by expat scots.

alasdair

In reply to alasdair19:

Fair enough. I was confused by RFGA's 'few months ago' comment.


This I am sure is also true, but as an English-Canadian I feel it is my dual-national duty to request some examples: ?

In reply to tobyfk:
anything by 'Bugs' McKeith, (eg Polar Circus ) & no doubt many others

In reply to Doug:

That was in 1975. Hadn't the great man emigrated at that point anyway? Do the Welsh claim Catherine Zeta-Jones' Oscar?


No doubt .....

In reply to UKC News:
Bugs aided polar circus, and most of his Canadian routes. It was free climbed by Americans.