UKC

Due to a surgical procedure my summer climbing season has been blown so, I want to make the most of the idle time by looking forward to the future and, even if this might seem a bit premature, to perfect my new gear for the winter 

I have some mountaineering experience but almost no ice/mixed climbing experiece. So far I have climbed with one mountaineering axe on grade I and II gullies, mostly solo,  and I would like to have a shot at leading grade III next winter, if and when I find "the perfect conditions" day we all dream of

Along with boots and crampons, I have acquired a pair of second hand DMM fly (old stile) as they seems to be versatile "all rounder" entry level good tools  . I was thinking to go leashless and was wondering if a pinky rest is necessary or, at that grade, the handle grip alone can suffice, even without leashes. I have seen that there are ways to retro fit a pinky rest, even on the old models but, as I will still be using at least one of the axes for general mountaineering, I was wondering how this will affect plunging the axe shaft. The leashes will eliminate the need for a pinky rest but I think leashes might  be a hindrance more that a help, (not sure here either but leashless seems to be less fuss for placing gear). I have also tought about the possibility to fit only one of the axes with the pinky rest (and possibly fit the other with a trigger finger rest?) I have also tought that with accurate foot work there might  be limited need to hang from the tools, therefore the pinky rest might not be necessary and I am just overcomplicating things? obviously I can try before I proceed to modify the axes, but  I would be grateful if you could share your opinions/ideas/experiences in order to help me on this decision

Thank you all for your feedbacks!!!

I love pinky rests myself on all terrain but especially on ice, by which I mean it is more noticeable on ice in the lower grades than on mixed. Using them for mountaineering is still fine. Get yourself some lanyards though... don't wanna drop em!

Whilst pinky rests are a really nice addition to any axe, if you plan to use the flys then definitely invest in a pair of well padded gloves!

Flies are good tools. Maybe not the most modern design but they're nicely weighted and the tools themselves (even in unmodified form) would get you up anything if you were good enough. Grade VII and VIII was climbed with far more basic tools back in the day. 

Pinky/ hand rests at the end of the shaft (missus) will help make them easier to use. You wouldn't have to hang on as hard with your fingers & the heel of your hand would be taking some of the weight. I'd forget the trigger finger rest idea as that (to me) is just adding unecessary complication- other may disagree.  Do a search on the site for the multitude of threads on this topic. You'll get some great ideas for rests you can fit to the axes yourself. 

thanks a lot to all of you. my last doubt is how well you can plunge the axe shaft with the pinky rest at the bottom, when used for walking up snow slopes?

It's not as big a deal as you might imagine. You'll be fine as long as your pinky rests are well attached.

Great, much appreciated!

I also quite like the triggers, holding each axe with forefinger over the trigger is a nice fast way to climb steep neve. But each to their own

Thanks!, Do you find that on less steep slope the triggers hinder the plunging of the shaft or not?

No ive never found that to be a problem

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience, much appreciated!

Pinky rests will hinder plunging the shaft.

Cheers

Euge

Very much agree.

Very true and while I can't overstate my admiration for these achievements, wrist loops would have been used. While not as good as lanyards and "pinky holders", this may have been more secure to some extent (if more cumbersome) than lanyards without pinky holders.

I am a recent convert to axes without wrist loops (firstly, I converted to this in mixed, then later on ice), but I do find that "pinky holders" give nice extra security, even though I don't climb hard myself.

M

Adjusted to better reflect likely outcomes

Hello and thanks for sharing your experience; I didn't have a look at my post for a while and I have now fitted pinky rests. Will this render the axe useless for general mountineering? how do ice climbers cope with the snow slopes on the approach to the climbs if their axes have pinky rests? Any suggestion welcomed. Perhaps remove the pinky rest and fit leashes, forgetting all about going leashless  or bring a third walking axe just in case (seems a bit of a overkill),  or use a walking pole in conjunction with one of the axes as they are now (with pinkies)? What most climbers with  technical leashless axes do?

Thanks!

PS, will be in north wales for a few days of low grades climbing. I will check my post on my return so, thanks in advance to everyone.

hello Mark and thanks? do you find that the pinky rests limit the plunging of the axe drastically?

Thanks1

What difficulties do you have in mind specifically? Heading directly up a slope is, I'd say, a fairly low-risk time in terms of slipping and needing to self-belay by plunging the shaft (labouring up is hard work - but going slow means you can be sure of each step, at least). If the snow's soft the shaft will go in, pommel or no; if it's hard neve you can still use the axe for balance, and then dagger when it gets steeper.

Plenty of people use a pole instead of an axe for support. As long as you're not endangering other people you can do whatever you're happiest with

Yes, you are right. it all make sense. Come winter, I will have a go and see how does it go! Thanks!

If the snow's genuinely soft enough to plunge the shafts avalanches are likely to be more of a concern than technical grip rest positions!

I think it is a bit more nuanced than that. From my (very) lowly winter punter point of view, I’d say that more technical tools with curved shafts, grip and pinkie (or extra positions for choking up on the shaft) rests certainly make it much harder to plung in softer snow.  

The thing is that by the time you appreciate the benefits of such features, you could climb grade I and II with a sharpened stick so you don’t care about the downsides. Starting out - and asking the question sugests starting out - it isn’t necesarily so easy. 

Before my head explodes from the frustration of adding this one in from my phone:

Leahless is great when you are confident but requires really good hand rests, accepting their down sides. My own experience is that it only starts to be a benefit from grade III onwards and even then it is hard to tell how much is thanks to being leashless and how much to having more technical tools. 

My advice would be to progress gradually, especially if soloing or leading - start with your existing mountaineering axe and the fly hammer (with leash); next two flys with leashes and when/if you find they are genuinely the block on your progress, look at modding them (or replacing them) for leashless. 

Be safe and have fun. 

Thanks NathanP, that sounds like good advice too. I might remove the pinky rests and try without it first. Hardly necessary at the moment. I have got them anyway and can always fit it back and see what suit me best as it seems that, as most things, everyone has different preferences. I appreciate all the comments so far but it seems that ultimately I will have to make my mind up from my own experience.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your experience!

True, good observation to keep in mind.

Hi Mauraman, sorry I don't check UKC as often as I would like! I reckon pinky rests hamper plunging the axe just a wee bit - not too much, as climbing with shafts tends to be in soft snow anyway.

Thanks Mark. conditions permitting, I will have a play with the axes this coming winter and see how it goes. Hopefully we will have a proper winter.

Hi.  I'll add my perspective about leashes. 

If you are using your ice axe or ice axes for snow climbing, I think you should try to go with no leashes at all.  In this application, you will likely be using one axe mostly as a cane, sometimes plunging in steeper snow, reversing hands when zig-zaging and changing direction, and so on.  If you are climbing steeper snow, or sections of steeper snow, you might be using two axes, perhaps holding them high near the head and plunging both picks, or switching hand position and climbing methods frequently.  A leash, or leashes, will make all this hand and direction and grip changing more difficult.   They are a very real potential trip hazard.  And if you do take a slide, and you loose grip of your axe, it will be flying around you tethered to the leash--very dangerous.  For me, these drawbacks are not worth the added security of not dropping my tools on that kind of terrain. Many people don't use leashes on single axes for mountaineering for these reasons.  I don't think it's different with two tools.  

If you are on terrain where you need to swing both tools, you could consider using leashes, or only using them for parts of a climb.  The advantage of leashes, as I suggested, is that they prevent you from dropping your tools.  Therefore, they make placing protection easier and faster--if you have a good stance, you don't have to really worry about were you place your tools when you stop to get in some gear.  This is particularly true on mixed stuff, where you might need to use your hands to climb rock.  I's really nice in those circumstances to be able to just drop a tool and grab the rock if necessary for a few moves, or drop a tool to place some protection.  On steep ice it's almost always easier to simply whack your tools in somewhere while you place an ice screw, but at least with leashes you don't need to worry about how secure these placements are (assuming again that you have a good stance). All of this to say, leashes are to stop you from dropping a tool, and are therefore most appropriate where you might need to use your hands and you do not want to worry about your tools.  Or, your leashes are not designed to hold falls, as you probably know. 

Considering that leashes are not designed to hold falls, I find it surprising how much (false) mental security they give, even though I know they are not designed for that purpose.  If I'm climbing steep hard snow or ice climbing, and I am using my leashes, I feel more secure, even if I know that I am not really, and this might be a factor you want to consider.  Will using leashes make you feel safer, even when you actually are not?  Will that small amount of added confidence have a positive or a negative effect on your climbing?  I can see it working both ways.  On one hand, leashes could give climbers a false sense of security, and encourage them to take risks they might otherwise not.  On the other hand, leashes might make climbers feel more confident, and that light allow them to climb more competently.  It's tricky, and you'll probably need to experiment.

Another drawback of leashes is learning how to manage them on steeper pitched climbing.  When you are leading, you have to make sure that you don't clip your rope to protection over them, and then have to pass one tool underneath to continue moving upward.  And when you are following, they always get tangled with the rope.  It's really annoying.  But I do think it's important to learn how to deal with all that. 

So if you're on moderate snow, I would say don't use leashes at all.  If you are on easy ice with good stances, I would say use your judgement, but consider going leashless.  And if you start steeper pitched climbing, use leashes and learn how to manage them.

Pinky rests and modern curved tools make climbing any kind of terrain where you might need to swing or hang from your axes much, much easier.  Of course hard routes have been climbed with straight tools, and great climbers can climb with just about anything, but that does not change the fact that for average climbers modern gear simply makes climbing easier and safer and more fun. 

You seem very concerned about how pinky rests might effect the ability to plunge a tool. My feeling is that it's kind of a non issue, in so far as steeper, pitched, ice and mixed climbs are concerned.  You can almost always plunge the shaft of a tool with or without a pinky rest.  And if the snow/ice is hard enough that a pinky rest would really prevent you from placing the shaft, then you are probably better off swinging the pick.  That's a big debate, and some people are likely to disagree, but in my experience the very few times when the conditions are such that I would prefer a true straight shafted tool are not worth climbing without pinky rests, grips, and curved shafts most of the time, if that makes sense. 

Last, you may be familiar with the old style Nomic tools, They had only a smooth, comfortable pink rest, with no spike.  People climbed many hard alpine, ice and mixed routes with those axes.  When using these tools, one technique is to swing them as necessary on steeper terrain, and then, on less steep pitches, or on snow slopes between steep pitches, just turn the tools around, hold them by the smooth pommel, and plunge the entire head I the snow.  I still climb that way with my X-dreams.  I really like having no spike on the bottom of the shaft.  The whole head and pick of the tool function like a spike when I need to plunge them, and you can easily and smoothly transition from steep pitched climbing to snow climbing/hiking.  So that's one method.  It's hard if you have a spike on your tools, though. 

So that's my perspective.  Bear in mind that I'm no expert or professional, just and average weekend warrior scribbling on UKC.

Thsnks a lot, I appreciate your point of view. Yes, my concern was mostly about the possibility to not be able to use the axe for walking but, as you pointed out, I should be able to plunge it in. If not,  it will be because the snow is really compacted in which case I can swing the pick in, as you suggest. It makes sense.

Good advice (along with the rest of the post) - but a pedantic impulse compels me to draw attention to the difference between wrist leashes and tethers/lanyards. And to note that a set of the latter is much more user-friendly if they incorporate a built-in spinner (BD and Petzl)

Not pedantic at all: leashes and tethers, completely different.  Should have mentioned that. 

I've never used tethers with the spinner-thingy.  Does that really make a difference?  It would be great to find something to at least somewhat reduce the tangling. 

Yup. I think so, anyway. Doesn't help with rope/gear tangles, of course, but at least makes life much easier if you're swapping axes a lot

In short:

Pinky rest - really really useful

Trigger finger rest - unnecessary in my opinion

Plunging - will be fine whatever.

In less short:

I've used vennons, quarks, simmond tools, Xmonsters, and various borrowed tools over the years. My first pair of tools were Dmm vennoms. I bought them as, like yourself I thought plunging was going to be important. It wasnt in the slightest compared to performance on steeper ground. I lead up to WI4 and Scottish 4 in them but it was much easier when I later bought some petzl quarks because of the hook at the bottom to rest your hand in. On plunging type ground I've always found it makes utterly no difference what I've used. Even the Xmonsters which have a huge handle and thin curly shaft have been fine. The only thing that's been slightly below par was the hut fire poker which I used up to grade 2 on a day I left my tools in the house, it was a bit thin and cut through the snow.

I did understand what you ment, even where you swap the term tether with leash.

On steep ice, secure placements are vital. This is not affected by whether one climbs with or without wrist loops or lanyards.

Hi Mark.   Yes, of course.  If you are climbing steep ice, making your placements as secure as possible is truly important, with or without tethers, leashes, soloing, roped climbing, and so on.  And if you are placing an ice screw, your placements need to be solid too.  That is self evident, I hope.  What I meant to say was, if you are climbing steep ice, and you reach a ledge or stance or whatever, where you want to place a screw, or belay, and you can work with your hands free, with tethers, you can just place your tools where ever, without worrying that you will drop them.  In contrast, without tethers, some attention is warranted to make sure that your tool are out of the way, solidly placed, and so on, so that you don't knock them loose or drop them.  Thanks for clarifying that--I sure wouldn't want people to think that they can be casual about their placements when are climbing, and not standing somewhere nice and solid. 

No worries! I see what you mean now. I have just switched from wrist loops to lanyards when leading ice - definitely feels better (I did such a switch on mixed a while back and that helped too). Personally, I would never climb totally leashless in winter, although for winter hillwalking, I use a general purpose axe with a wrist loop. However, I usually am not attached to this wrist loop unless I am placing the pick or cutting steps.