UKC

Genuine question, I see that Invernookie is now graded at IV 5 on here, having previously been III 4, as it does in my guide. Does anyone know if something has happened to the route ?  Thanks

Invernookie (IV 5)
 

Long time since I've done it, but I seem to recall a few moves which relied on turf which was no longer there. Certainly felt harder to me at the time (but then I was never a great climber) so maybe that has made the grade change.

More likely something has happened to climbers. Grades creep up because climbers with bruised egos can be very vocal. 

I asked a similar question some time ago, when it was originally bumped up in grade. I believe it was upgraded due to the serious nature of the route and that as a result of turf loss making several moves harder, it was upgraded to IV,5.

Ive not yet climbed the route but the high on my list. 

It's the loss of turf over the top of a couple of the bulges makes moves too reachy and strenuous for a Grade III.

Thanks All.

When I did it III 4 felt about right so I’m surprised it’s been regraded ! 

It depends on conditions. You can still get it at III,4 but it need to be good conditions. Unusually good these days. I did it 3 weeks ago and I'd say it was IV,4 on the day, and conditions were quite good. A lot of routes in the Norries are harder than they used to be. Whether they should be upgraded is debatable but then you go somewhere else and the grades seem easier.

Very true.

Indeed, you might go to the NC to test yourself on a given grade before taking that grade to more remote areas... That's what I tend to do.

Nothing like rounded breaks, flared cracks and poor footholds to quickly show you that it is indeed a good idea to try "that" grade an hour away from the carpark as opposed to 3 or 4 including biking in!

As a 64 yeat old who has done the route several times, it is a grade 111 and anything other than that should be enjoyed as part of the adventure. Great route, safe, exposed for the grade. Good introduction to young climbers. Enjoy.

CXI, surely?

Good point, Andy. Conditions were great when I did it

What has your age got to do with it ? 

There are two points in life, one quite early on and one much later, when some people feel the need to include their age in every conversation.

If they're using the Norries as a testing ground they should steer well clear of Lochnagar. 

I wish that were true. But a few years ago, a team fell from the top pitch and both ended up in the corrie, miraculously with only one broken ankle between them. The top is quite serious and you don't want to fall. And more definite, you don't want to belay just below the top.

Fair enough, but I couldn't possibly comment, I have only ever done one route on Lochnagar and not even on the main cliffs:  that 1st sector on the left (gost something left of transept or cathedral route).

Overall, I find the climbing on NCs routes harder than their counterparts in the north west, but by and large the approaches and seriousness make for a harder day in the NW.

I haven't climbed south of Ben Nevis in a good few years now...and should reacquaint myself with standards there!

As a wife and mother I'm happy to accept a reconsidered IV,4

I've never thought of the Norries as soft or Lochnagar as particularly hard but there we go.

Can we all please stop using the N word.

Does it deeply offend you?  

Are you currently studying the Connie's, waiting for the opportunity to send your mega sick prodge in the Norries? dude you must be so psyked.

Super psyched, it’s gonna be rad, dude  

Hope you get a bluebird day.

Now, where is the bleach, I need a wash!

Hi Andy, I personally didn't find this situation when I did it. I must admit I did the route 15 years ago and it felt III,4 (albeit high in Grade III) even with usual powder/rime/frost. However, while I can appreciate that turf loss can make the route technically harder (and thus IV,5 rather than III,4), I can't easily see how such a situation can make it significantly bolder. Indeed, I remember one chap in the party ahead of us saying how serious the top was and I was baffled (although very pleased!) to find multiple good nut and peg placements! Has there been a rockfall near the top?

Hi Erick. I know I don't operate at anything like your standard, but I can maybe give a reasonable comparison of mixed III/IV (and one or 2 Vs) from the Norries and the 'Coe. I find the grades similar in these 2 areas, with (perhaps unsurprisingly, given other comments here) the grades feeling just a bit easier in Glen Coe (maybe something to do with more positive holds giving better hooks/footholds?). I must say, however that both areas offer a lot of very well-protected mixed routes (obviously, I have often struck it lucky with conditions for this!).

I have done very little mixed anywhere else, but I completely ruined my kex on No. 2 Gully Buttress on the Ben! Gale Force Groove on Lochnagar felt quite serious too. I haven't really "broken my duck" for mixed up North but East and West Buttress are very much on my "wishlist". 

I think you're misremembering. There is good gear in the steep groove leading up into the final cave. Here there used to be very little but now there is something metal in the rock (a warthog?). Then you traverse right and climb the final groove with nothing. OK, it's only 10m of climbing but there's nothing, and it's not easy.

Maybe. Could I have been off-route? How many finishes emanate from the cave?

I have a vague recollection of the top 10-15m being fairly free of snow (unlike the rest of the route). Maybe this made it easier?

Blimey if Invernookie is grade 4 then what does that make Innaccesible Gully on Dove Crag.

Interested to hear opinions on that one.

It was about II/III,3 when I did it in 09 ish during the mega winter. Even most the rock faces looked like they had semi usable hoar frost on. To be honest the crux section was probably easier than The Runnel typically is early season

Conditions.

I have only done it once as a quick filler to complete a day. It was harder than expected. Andy's new grade is spot on.

It might be bottom end of the grade but the system and variable conditions do not allow that precision. He has got to decide on a number. Let's live with it.

In general lakes grade IV does not equal Scottish IV as lakes routes are graded for ideal nick and Scottish ones are graded for normal/usual conditions.

What a good way of explanation.

40 years ago, when bill Andy and bob were starting to write the first lakes winter guide, one theory was that lakes routes were easy ground in bad condition, whereas in Scotland the routes were hard ground in good condition. I think yours is clearer.