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/ Moses Enterprises Tomahawk vs DMM Bulldog/Terrier

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Lamb - on 23 Dec 2017
Replacing my peg etc rack and was wondering about the wisdom of picking up some of these Moses Enterprises Tomahawk beaks in place of any pegs. Retiring my pegs for tomahawks I am sold on, however I was wondering if carrying these it is still worthwhile carrying a DMM Bulldog or Terrier as well? I know the Bulldog can perform additional roles but I'm meaning purely with regards to drive in protection for thin seams.

Does anyone have any experience using these beaks for Scottish Winter?

Hopefully this is allowed in the Winter page rather than gear. Cheers.
Flashy - on 23 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:

Not these specifically but used BD Peckers and the fact they are faintly toothed made them feel reassuring in icy cracks. No idea if they are actually better than the Tomahawks but it might be a factor worth considering?
Roberttaylor - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:

I've used both DB peckers and Moses tomahawks a bit in winter, as well as terriers and bulldogs. You're right that a terrier and a beak will do a different job; it's worth carrying both imo, depending on the route. The peckers have slight teeth...more like little notches than terrier teeth, whereas the tomawmhawks are smooth and more curved. I prefer the peckers, though I can't offer any concrete reason why. Andy KP rates the tomahawks. Terriers are a lot broader at the nose than any beaks, you'd struggle to get them started in some of the thin seams I've seen peckers and tomahawks in.
Tricadam on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:

I really rate my #3 Moses Tomahawk as a get out of jail piece - which it has been on more than one occasion! Works well in horizontal seams too if you lark's foot a sling through the eye. And the design (and lack of teeth) makes it very easy to clean, even when positively welded into the crag (as sometimes feels necessary!) Given the way it's placed and the way the forces of a fall will work on it, I can't see any advantage to teeth, which would only make it harder to remove. I've since added a #1 and #2. I've got a couple of DMM Bulldogs too to use in lieu of Warthogs, but (as has been noted above) they're very different, not least due to that much wider tip.

I've noticed that Krukonogi and Kuznia Szpeju do similar looking pegs, but are often out of stock and the postage is a bit prohibitive.
Pay Attention - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Roberttaylor:

That was an interesting outline of the function of these different tools.
Which is best for the specific purpose of placing horizontally in a frozen puddle or shallow ice pool on topping out? I've seen suggestions that favour the Terrier over the others but haven't tried this out.

A casual question, how would you rack and carry these items to avoid snagging while climbing?
Lamb - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Roberttaylor:

Thanks for the reply. I've not set my eyes on the Tomahawks before, would you reckon that a compromise would be to carry one Tomahawk and one Bulldog/Terrier? If so what sizes in your opinion would you recommend for each? I have used (and lost insitu) two Terriers already due to the difficulty cleaning them, hence questioning other options. Cheers.
French Erick - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Pay Attention:

I clip my bulldog and terrier on the same karabiner through the eye on the blade with the sling loose. I always clip it on my harness with blades pointing backward.
French Erick - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:

I have never used a tomahawk or a pecker. I've assumed it would do the same job as my terrier. Interested to hear more details from other users.
Tricadam on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to French Erick:

> I clip my bulldog and terrier on the same karabiner through the eye on the blade with the sling loose. I always clip it on my harness with blades pointing backward.

Agreed: blades out/backwards. If carrying a Bulldog, I leave the plastic cover on over that ever-so-sharp nose!
Tricadam on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Pay Attention:

> Which is best for the specific purpose of placing horizontally in a frozen puddle or shallow ice pool on topping out? I've seen suggestions that favour the Terrier over the others but haven't tried this out.

Can't think of many situations where a frozen puddle is your best bet for a belay on topping out! If it were though, I reckon a Bulldog placed vertically, not horizontally. Or simply your two axes wellied into the ice a sensible distance apart, again placed in line with the force that will be applied to them.
Adam Godwin on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:

I've personally found the Tomahawk #2's even better than the #3's on rock. So I currently carry two of those and find them so useful that they're on the front of my harness with my smaller wires now. Highly recommend them!

I also have an emergency get out of jail krab with a Terrier and even a Skyhook on for any spicy situations I find myself in. However, I personally see the Terrier as marginal turf/ice protection and would just stack my two Tomahawks #2's on a wider crack.

Just my two pennies worth...
Lamb - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Adam Godwin:

Thanks for the reply.

I'll probably go ahead and pick up a single number 2 Tomahawk and a new Terrier for the time being then and see how I get on with them (probably be replacing a stuck Terrier in a months time!).

Cheers
BnB - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:

I really rate the Terrier in narrow cracks. Abbed off one twice and that's the ultimate test of confidence.
Lamb - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to BnB:

That must have been squeaky bum time! :-o
BnB - on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:

It was more appetising than freezing to death up there!
Tricadam on 24 Dec 2017
In reply to Lamb:
> That must have been squeaky bum time! :-o

I reckon beaks are, if anything, more intuitively trustworthy than the likes of cams. Having said that, if placed in absolute shite then they're gonna feel commensurately scatological!
Post edited at 22:50
Dave Kerr - on 25 Dec 2017
In reply to Tricadam:
Is that swaged loop on the Tomahawk for clipping or just an aid to removal?

Edit: must be clippable as the hole is surely too small to clip?
Post edited at 11:25
Roberttaylor - on 25 Dec 2017
In reply to Pay Attention:

No idea, frozen puddle protection is really lagging behind at the moment.

As for racking them, ask someone with fewer holes in his softshell trousers.
planetmarshall on 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Roberttaylor:

> I've used both DB peckers and Moses tomahawks a bit in winter, as well as terriers and bulldogs.

Have you re-slung these with cord, or do you tie them off with a sling? I don't know about yours but the cable on my BD Peckers is only rated to 2kN.


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