UKC

Hi

I've been out of the country most of the winter -- are the proposed NF car park charges in operation now?  The forestry site suggests they are. Paying for parking by mobile phone is a bit advanced for me, so if they are I want to be prepared. 

https://forestryandland.gov.scot/visit/north-face

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/5368498/forestr...

Cheers

Didn't realise that was planned. Parked there on Saturday - we didn't notice any signs about paying, and if we were meant to pay, we got away with it!

Is there even a signal there to use RingGo?

Thanks Mike.  Good to know.

I thought it was interesting that the newspaper article was talking about the proposal only a month ago, yet the Forestry site talking about it being current.

And, yes, I've struggled to get a signal there.  Which is what I meant about being prepared.

Also interesting to see they are not interested in installing a toilet -- which I've been saying for about 25 years would be worth paying for.

Watch out where the phone reception is bad, the payment apps don't always clear the payment. I've been fighting Pembrokeshire council for 6 months over a £5 parking charge that we thought we'd paid. Piles of letters, emails, telephone calls and a lost appeal finally came to an end only when I managed to get through to a reasonable human being who finally accepted we were not at fault. I ended up paying £5 towards the PCN which then got cancelled. Whilst I'm quite smug about my personal sense of righteousness and pigheadedness, I've better things to do than scrap over a £25 PCN for 6 months. Always carry a few pound coins in the car.

THE NORTH FACE CAR PARK NEEDS A COMPOSTING TOILET

There is sh*t everywhere and it's disgusting.  The forestry commission earn a lot and should be building composting toilets at major forestry carparks to avoid the total mess.

... and that's without charging for parking.  If they're going to start charging, then they should build two toilets and keep them well maintained.

Maybe what the Scottish Government should be doing is setting up a Department of Conservation that looks after things like car parks and toilet facilities.  It costs money, but it would be worth it.  New Zealand has all these facilities and they work very well at protecting the landscape, wildlife and freedom of everyone who wants to enjoy the outdoors.  

The lack of freely available composting toilets in Britain is shameful and every layby and parking area is full of mess.  I don't know what visitors from abroad think when they see what we have to offer here.  In France and Spain, there are designated rest areas all over the place for campers with facilities to empty your waste.  

I agree that the North Face car park needs a toilet but it doesn't appear to be part of the plan at present 😞

The UK is totally rubbish for public toilets. In the Highlands particularly it's been getting worse for years with many closing down due to running costs. I live just off the NC500 so am quite familiar with the grimness of it all.

However, as humans we all have a responsibility to behave decently. Just because there's no toilet does not mean it's OK to crap in a bush, layby or dump your campervan waste.

In an ideal world we would have access to a decent network of toilets but as we currently dont, we should all be prepared to take that waste home. Wag bags aren't crazy expensive and can be used to safely transport said waste back to a bin. 

If you roadside camp or van doss on a regular basis, a portable toilet that you empty at home really isn't that much hassle.  You can even get collapsible/folding ones should space be an issue.

Sure, the odd person will get caught out unexpectedly but if the vast majority came prepared to take their crap (and litter too please) home we'd greatly improve the current situation.

A barrier and an overnight parking fee for campers would go a long way in reducing this impact from people using the car park but only really a stop gap and the NFCP has been crying out for a toilet for too many years. The two at Lower Falls are a step in the right direction, in reality people going to the toilet at the NF are simply just lazy but it also stems from fear of losing a space because it's so unbelievably busy. I've seen the same vans in the exact same space there over the course of weeks. This season has been tough because of the poor conditions, with the Ben being one of very few crags in the country in regularly reasonable condition so the area has taken a huge beating both in terms of footfall and vehicle access.

It needs to be doubled in size to cope with demand and a Pay & Display sort of system with an option for locals to buy a yearly pass, I'd put the barrier in at the turn off at Torlundy so people can't abuse the spaces left at the side of the access road. I feel sorry for the folks who live locally who just want to take their dogs a walk in the woods and can't get near the place and when they do there's a constant risk of standing in someone else's dump, the levels of waste going into the streams must be huge.

I sleep in my van fairly regularly but will always find an flushing toilet to use and park up a bit further away from the crag so I can make use of it each morning. There's enough public toilets in Fort William, whether that be supermarkets, hotels, campsites, cafes etc etc. and almost all of them are available to use in a 24h period. The simple fact is that it stems from complete and utter human laziness. It's a shame because these people are walkers and climbers, the sort of folk you'd expect would actually care and make an effort to preserve the area.

Agree with both of these last two posts about toilets.  The times have long changed since digging a hole is acceptable, because there are too many people out there now.  (In winter you can't dig a hole in the permafrost anyway.)  But there has been a strong mentality in the van dweller world on these forums and similar (although that is slowly changing), that portapottis in your van are messy and disgusting since it's "your living space"!  So the crapping in the woods continues.  We specifically bought a van so we could fit a toilet.  Our little car was too tiny.

But the general problem is only going to get worse with public bogs going downhill and tourists increasing.  A NF parking bog would have been a good start to promote change.

laziness or just to tight to pay for a campsite?

If they put a toilet in without payment for overnight stays it will just encourage & subsidise more vans and camping as it will become a de facto campsite

Yeah, if they're going to put a toilet in then a barrier for Pay&Display is needed. There's plenty of public toilets in FW but people don't seem to realise, or just don't want to get up half an hour earlier to make use of them and then drive to the crag.

I don't know if they're too tight, or that a lot people make such a lowly wage that by the time they've paid for a vehicle, fuel, food and kit then they don't have much left over to spare on a campsite for however long they're around.

But that's another topic entirely...

Plenty of bedtime reading in the planning application.

https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&a...
Ive not read through it yet but the p&j implies a barrier well before it and a yearly pass available.

Yes a completely different topic... fair pay etc vs living within you means is a whole different can of worms.  Personally I'm on a low wage and know how much travel and kit costs but I don't expect the right to do certain activities or for others to subsidise my living or leisure. 

The problem with the campsite in Glen Nevis is that it's shut during the winter so the nearby campsite option isn't available until late in the winter season.

Any parking fee should pay for the upkeep of some toilets in the car park - Ben Nevis is hugely popular in winter, especially in less good seasons like this one and a solution is needed as there is a huge amount of poo in and around that car park now.

Just out of interest, then, where do you park up to sleep in the van when climbing on the Ben?

I live in Fort William, so I usually sleep in my own bed and use my own toilet before I climb on the Ben.

There's public toilets in Morrisons which opens at 7am, if that's not early enough then there's two sets of public toilets at either end of the high street. All the carparks in FW (West End, Middle Street and the one behind the High Street) are free between 6pm and 8am, and the toilets are within walking distance of all of these. The carpark at Lidl is also okay to use if you park up the back corners away from the shop, and has no maximum stay limit. 

None of this removes the issue that the NFCP is too small for the amount of traffic it gets now, but if more people used the abundunt choice of public toilets in the area then there wouldn't be literal crap lining every hedgerow. 

Some useful local knowledge there, but for better or worse, sleeping in the car park where you're going to start walking from is always going to be the default position for most people who aren't local or staying in a hostel. And realistically, not many of those are going to decide to do another 20 minutes driving first thing in the morning. So until sensible provision of facilities is made, there's always going to be a problem.

I must be different then, I’d always stay further away from the crag and drive there in the morning. Especially if it means I’ll get to use a proper toilet rather than a squat in the bushes. An example being staying in Torridon Village if climbing at Diabaig so I’ve got somewhere to wash my dishes and use the bathroom.

I don’t think not being local makes much difference, all the info people need is online and easily obtainable, if people are going somewhere new it takes 2 minutes to find out where local amenities happen to be. 

I guess it does boil down to how bothered people are, and it’s frustrating that the default seems to be not giving a toss. 

An that is the problem it's a carpark not a campsite/vansite now everyone will have to pay because the area was too popular with people who had no consideration for thier part in the overall enviromental impact but will now moan or find ways to avoid paying but still happy for others to pay for the facilities.

Which now you say it, makes me think, yeah, if toilets go in at the NFCP, does that mean it'll be eternally rammed with vans? It's already bad enough for that as it is.

When I've owned a van I always slept elsewhere, used public facilities then drove to where I wanted to be to climb/walk.

I'll hand it to folk though, I don't think that public facilities in Fort William are most obvious.

Nah, it's very different for cragging when there's no rush. Not really comparable to winter climbing requiring early starts. The situation may be depressing but it will remain thus until proper provision is made.

So the charge is because of environmental impact, and yet there's no plan for public toilets?

Perhaps. 

If you can wake up in your own home in Fort William (or Aviemore, Torridon, Inverness, Glasgow, wherever etc) and manage the drive to the start of a winter climbing day then why can't you manage a shorter drive if you're in a van?

Some of the suggested options from Nathan re' locations to stay in Fort William would have you in the nfcp within ten minutes drive without contributing to some of the many problems in that area that are discussed in this thread. 

It’s a ten minute difference between driving from town and I do it every time I go winter climbing on the Ben without ever having to crap in the car park. If someone can’t get up 10 minutes earlier to go for dump then I’d suggest winter climbing isn’t the most suitable pursuit for that person.

I can make the same example but say I was going winter climbing on Beinn Eighe, Liathach or any hill within a 10 mile radius of the village. 

I will also add that last week someone had taken a crap in a 'bag for life', left it on the ground in the North Face Car Park, another vehicle had run over it and the contents had squished out of rips in the bag.  It was an appalling sight.  What was even more appalling though, was that my two year old and five year old got out of the car and approached the bag thinking it was worth exploring.  Luckily I noticed what it was just in time.  Oh my god it was horrendous, and was nearly a total disaster.  

I had one carrier bag in the car, so managed to scoop it up inside and tie a knot in it and leave it out of the way to be collected later.  I'm afraid I refused to put it in my car but would have done had I had another bag or extra packaging of some sort.  

Another time at the same car park, my five year old daughter was picking wild strawberries by the side of the path.  I knelt down with her and picked a few and ate them.  Only then did I notice they were growing right next to a massive pile of sh*t (assuming dog which is not really any better than human).  I was disgusted.  Kids don't see poo, even when you point it out to them!

A bin for dog mess would be great there, as the paths all around that car park are lined with dog turds.  Arghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These are good arguments, but aren't going to do anything to change things. Convincing me isn't the issue. I'm just explaining what the situation is, and why.

Just had an interesting chat with my 70 years old dad who goes vanning a couple of times a year.
As an older, and now somewhat frailer, man on his own who is not made of money (he owns an old VW combi circa 1989 which was given to him broken -nae gearbox- as a repayment for helping out a friend) he is less and less enclined to us lay-bys. 
So campsite it is.

but:

1) they are not extortionate 

2) most communes in Rural France now have an “air de service “ with a pay as you go coin device to empty your gray water and fill with new one. Apparently, it’s been a legal requirement for about 15 years that each locality provides such a place.

3) local government entities e.i communes are significantly smaller than councils. They each have the responsibility of a territory. They get their funds directly from central government.

4) each communes has a dedicated maintenance team (sometimes of one!) who goes about cleaning, ensuring bin sheds are fine, and here driving the snowplough in the streets.

5) the expectation is that the private sector cannot be expected to shoulder the collective responsibility.

My conclusion is that this comes at a cost which is paid for in local “taxe foncière” (=roughly equivalent to council tax but since recently only paid by house/flat/landowners. There was a  “taxe d’habitation” for people renting but this has ceased to exist fairly recently).

Locals do moan about paying this, mostly because it can vary hugely: as much as double the price within a couple of hundred meters due to the commune territory and the investment that each commune may have done. However, and despite being a hugely touristy area, there are none or very few of the problems witnessed in the highland honeyspots such as NFCP or around the NC500.

As usual, in the UK, we get what we pay for… i.e sweet nothing!!! As a country we have an anti tax culture, we demonise any payment made to central/ local government (perhaps for legitimate reasons… but that’s another thread).

 I have just spent 4 consecutive months home for the first time in 2 decades… the difference in approach has grown very obvious.

Btw, it ain’t perfect here by any stretch of imagination!

And yes, locals carry some of the costs! Bit unfair, but for the most part they have chosen to live in the area because of its beauty and/or activities so it is deemed that they should.

But France does have a 'taxe de séjour' for tourists which partly pays for services, although  I guess those in vans parking outside campsites don't pay.

I recently crapped in an emergency with no suitable woods in a standard Sainsburys carrier bag, wrapped it tight in three more of them and had it in my van for several days with no odour before disposing of it. So workarounds are possible. This thread has prompted me to get around today to the big paint pot and doggy bag solution someone described recently on here. I think this will be better for me than a porta potty with its disposal issues. At the moment I try to go in obscure unfrequented spots in the hills rather than near parking spots. 

I had forgotten about that, though the money is harder to follow as the campsites, hotels… charge it and it goes back to central tax payment as I understand it. Perhaps this is put in a pot which is then given back to the communes? I don’t know and frankly cannot be bothered to search… it’s likely to be one of those warren of a government websites!

Yep, done that in the past too, and works well.  No probs as you say.  A real porta bog is luxury   Especially if you can open the doors and get a view.  But you do need a bit more space. 

A sealed bucket and sawdust type thing would be fine and we have that on standby at home if we think the real portapotti could freeze and get damaged.  But haven't had a serious freeze issue yet.

Just been to Asda and bought a little lidded bin and tough bin liners for a tenner. So excited I might try it out in the carpark😁

Please don't post a photo after.

In line with views on some discussion on relatively recent climbing ascent controversies, pics or social media will doubt you.

Taxe d'habitation still exists and is paid on residence secondaires, meaning on all holiday homes.

Cat litter to sprinkle in afterwards can be handy as well.

Even if securely bagged?

That would deserve a downvote!

Depends on the consistency of your diet... Personally I've found some sort of dessicant helpful for preventing smells. Sawdust would probably do the same job.

Currently the NFCP has a "no overnight parking" sign, which is obviously routinely ignored. I think all FLS car parks prohibit overnight parking, except when they fall under the "stay the night" scheme (https://forestryandland.gov.scot/stay-the-night), which only operates spring to autumn and is for campervans with their own toilets, even when the relevant car park has toilets e.g. Ardgarten! The NFCP is not part of that scheme this year.

It wouldn't surprise me if the barrier/charging proposals for the NFCP will allow FLS to enforce the no overnight rule.

Whilst the proposed enlargement of the car park is to be welcomed, unless there is toilet provision and overnight & multi-day parking is allowed, this proposal is only going to lead to more problems.

I would hope that Mountaineering Scotland would be engaging with FLS over this proposal as it has the potential to create significant access problems for climbers.

Yes, overnighting in the Ben carpark is complicated, because in winter at least, most of us get there in the tiny hours for an early start.  Or very late the night before, to get up early.  Then afterwards, a fair proportion of us occasionally/often get back after midnight after some glorious epic...

And none of us ever camp in the sense of the likes of the campervan crowd that they invited to stay a summer or so ago immediately after lockdowns in that scheme you mention.  Parking up with satellite dishes etc.

But obviously you can't say these rules for mountain people, and those rules for everyone else.  So not sure how you manage the new crowds. 

A time machine to take us back 5-10-20 years would be nice.  Nobody else was interested in the outdoors then...

It's a car park for "mountain people" and the management should reflect this.  Overnight is as you say an interesting  and flexible concept for Ben days.

In reply to BruceM:

A time machine to take us back 5-10-20 years would be nice.  Nobody else was interested in the outdoors then...

I remember contributing to Torlundy carpark thread 15-20years ago saying that between JMT, the Forestry, MCofS and the Nevis partnership that toilets needed to be put in (but would be problematic due to the boggy ground).  So the problems not new. The longer it goes on the more likely the solution will make irregular access hours that climbers need awkward.

The comments and opinions were the same then as now and the carpark would fill up by 0600 on popular days. 
 

It needs partnership working; I guess the best way to get funding in the current Scottish political climate is to promote the diversity and inclusion aspect of adequate facilities. it’s the sort of thing that Mountaineering Scotland should have been trying to instigate or initiate change, on our behalf; you never know if they can get the buzz words mentioned above, they might actually try and do something practical for experienced climbers and hill walkers.  Instead of telling us every year that the red needle points North, snow blows with the wind and it gets dark early in winter.

The fact that a strategic carpark at Britains highest mountain, key to access for climbers has had a shit problem for over twenty years tells you a lot about National and local Gov planning, NGO priorities and funding allocations.

A height barrier would be a good start, and also be a nice token effort against overnight parking.