UKC

 Hi guys,

This is for London based winter climbers - from experience, what do you think works out quicker and cheaper for a long weekend trip?

I only have three or four days a few times per season to get away.

For years, I've always just headed straight up to the highlands (cheap Easyjet flight and then bus/train/hire car to wherever I'm climbing.

I've done some longer trips in the Alps, but wondering whether the logistics for a cheap smash and grab work out the same?

J

Consider the following for avoiding car hire:

* 55m flight to Glasgow, 3h45 train to Fort William

* 1h40m flight to Geneva, 1h bus transfer to Chamonix

The second option is slightly faster, though probably not in any meaningful way, as you're still looking a half day for travel. However, there's a big difference between being in FW with no car, and in Chamonix with no car. Honestly, unless you're meeting with someone else who can drive you, I don't think climbing in Scotland is really worthwhile/possible without a car. A place like Cham has the infrastructure in terms of buses, lifts, etc, but on the other hand you'll likely be paying more for accommodation and paying for the convenience of lifts as well.

If you're travelling to Europe, a flight and bus transfer can be all you need. However, please give consideration to whether that's justified for a short climbing trip. There are threads on here discussing how to do this via train as a greener alternative, though it seems apparently Eurostar still has some problems with ambiguity on check in and security restrictions.

If you're travelling to Scotland, I'd just drive. You need a car when you're up there anyway and a flight isn't going to save you much time with the airport travel and check in time. I shouldn't need to get into the discussion of whether it's green to use a plane to travel the length of England for a weekend away climbing. You could get a train and then hire a car, but unfortunately train prices have gone off the rails* and it's difficult to justify that price for the quality of travel experience (not to mention the probability of a delay).

* Yes! I did just say that!

I thought they tracked inflation. 

OP if you first ignore cost, the only decision is environmental impact versus quality of the winter playground. Although a long drive compared to a full short haul flight, might not be too different. 

Acclimatisation?

That is arguably the only disadvantage..  but you can still dash over and do something, you'll just be a little slower than usual and suffer more. 

You can do a long weekend to Cogne by flying to Turin or Geneva and either hiring a car or getting trains / buses. It’s feasible by public transport if your flight is early out and late back but you’d be reliant on buses / lifts to get to the road heads from Cogne village. Or you could stay at the roadheads at Valnontey or Lillaz. If hiring a car, make sure it has winter tyres.

If you’re looking at Alpine routes, as noted above, lack of acclimatisation could grind you to a halt but that’s a personal thing, some people seem to manage better than others. Generally, you will need skis to get to/from the routes, so if you don’t ski tour, you’d be better off spending the time learning to ski / ski tour. Alpine climbing in winter / spring is also a lot more involved and serious than in summer, so that’s something to bear in mind as well.

Sorry if I’m teaching you to suck eggs here. Wasn’t sure if you were referring to having done summer or winter Alpine trips.

1) That is often claimed, but then it's easily checked against inflation rates ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/270384/inflation-rate-in-the-united-kin... ) and rail fare prices ( Https://www.statista.com/chart/16498/rail-fare-changes-timeline-england-wal... )

2) Even if the numbers did match up there are many ways to manipulate this because rail fares are so variable. Which of the 10 different fares available for a long route do I use? A weighted mean based on number of tickets at each price would be a reasonable measure, but then do I use tickets sold or tickets offered? And what if the ticket prices are reduced or number of tickets offered at each price changed? Can  they even measure this effectively for season ticket users who could be doing a variable number of journeys for the same cost?

3) Even if the numbers did match up, and there was no manipulation, why is matching inflation the right approach? Prices for some goods and services track below inflation because of innovation and improvements, reduced supply chain costs, or increased demand for those goods and services. Why should the rail industry rest on its haunches and watch itself slowly crumble instead of trying to stay ahead of the curve?

​​​​​​4) And even then, what about reductions in the quality of the service offered at the supposed "tracked inflation" price. If there have been negative trends in the number of delays, number of cancellations, quality of in-carriage service, and number of standing passengers, why should the price stay at inflation levels?

5) inflation isn't the same as wage rate increases and how much money people actually have available. Trains cost a significantly higher % of people's income than they used to and the service and reliability has declined. There's a reason they are in the news constantly and it's not made-up sensationism.

Also no: https://www.thoughtco.com/flying-driving-which-better-for-environment-12039...

Note that this is opens with a car consuming 25-30 mpg. Even my clapped out 17 year old 2.4l diesel gets 45. And yes I'm a hypocrite for driving an old diesel, but I need it to tow the giant chip on my shoulder around.

I love the fact that the American article thinks 30mpg is economical! They are clearly living in different times. 

Don’t forget US gallons are smaller. 1.2 US gallons = 1 UK gallon 

Good point. It still doesn't make it reasonable! (25-30 becomes 30-36)

It’s quite quick and economical to do a long weekend to Chamonix. Easyjet Thursday evening after work, in Chamonix same night. Last flight home from GVA Monday evening. I get 4 full days for 2 days off work. I make even more use of the time by leaving climbing gear at home and just taking skis

Sleeper arr Aviemore 0745h then ski bus to the hill.

Why would you fly to Glasgow when you can fly to Inverness?  

I could ask you the same but why not Aberdeen. It was one example. Availability of flights on required dates/times might be one reason. Besides, the point was *not* to recommend flights.

How much does it cost to get to Scotland and how long does it take?

The thing you might struggle with in the Alps is accommodation as its ski season. Mountain huts are also invariably closed, or winter room only requiring you to take sleeping and cooking stuff which is expensive on baggage charges. I just had a quick look on booking.com and 4 nights hotel room next weekend in Garmisch* is 250euros cheapest.

*I'm not familiar with Cham, but I know its easy to fly to Munich and get the train to Garmisch where you're amongst the mountains.

Regulated fares average RPI plus 1% https://fullfact.org/news/rail-fares/
Regulated fares are standard and off peak returns and season tickets. So advance fares, plus single tickets aren't regulated. This is I believe why you see the strange pricing of a return costing only £1 more than the single.
It's also worth comparing how cost of rail travel has tracked compared with driving and flying. I didn't manage to find any figures quickly but I think it's clear to everyone how flying has become relatively cheap in recent years.

Well for Fort William, Aberdeen is much further and Inverness is much nearer than Glasgow.  

I just wondered if there was a specific reason (for example difficult winter driving conditions across from Inverness etc)  

Good point. Thinking about it, you can save an hour drive by doing Inverness-FW instead of Glasgow-FW but the flight time can be up to 40m longer (depends on the London airport and what plane they're flying). Glasgow has about 3x more flights from London and more options in terms of the closer London airport. The road up from Glasgow has more traffic an in some respects is more likely to be driveable in bad weather, but it does still have snowgates that will be closed if it's really bad. No guarantees either way - I've been stuck in Dumbarton for two hours due to flooding before. I mentioned Aberdeen as it would be a good option for accessing Cairngorms. 

The only time I've come up from London I got a bus to Bristol and then hopped in a mate's van. The alternator died and we ended up at the side of the motorway in the dark at 3am. So I guess my advice is... Avoid carpooling with me.