UKC

hi all .. 

We are heading up to fort William in feb for roughly 7-9 days , I have spoken the the guys at the ice factor where we are going to book a days indoor ice climbing with an instructor , just to get a feel of things and a bit of coaching ..  we are likely to book a guide for the first day out too ...   

Then after, we are hoping to get out and do a bit , the plan is to start easy and build from there , It would be nice to get some recommendations for some easy access crags / routes to take our time on and hone our winter skills  ..   Can anyone recommend such climbs / crags/  places  , and which guide books would be the best to pick up ..  

cheers guys ..   

Are you wanting specifically ice routes? For basic winter skills, Ledge route on the back of the big Ben. Fairly easy nav, long walk in and a nice ridge assuming you get reasonable wind. For ice, thats a different story, depends on conditions as they vary on the day you're out.

Ask your guide, they would be best placed to advise after being out with you for the day and based on conditions at the time.

Scottish Winter Climbs is the guide book to start with, it’s the selective guide. 

Easy access crags - depends what you mean by easy access, there isn’t really anywhere with less than an hour’s walk in and 2-2.5 hours is not unusual, longer if there’s a lot of fresh snow. Avalanche risk on approach and descent slopes and on the route (if it’s a gully) will also be a consideration. Hence asking your guide is the best bet. 

The bottom is traditional.

Re guidebooks, if you're in the west then the Glen Coe and Ben Nevis guides would seem like the obvious choices.

I'm interested in what others think, but I'm really sceptical that a bit of indoor ice climbing would really be of any use at all for people who then plan to go Scottish winter climbing for the first time. It seems a bit like being coached on an indoor bouldering wall to prepare you to go and do a loose, choosy and covered in grass grade 1 scramble.

You might get really lucky and be there during a cold snap in which case you might be able to go and find shortish bits of ice where you could, for example, set a top rope up, but that really isn't the norm for Scotland. And it really is mountaineering, except in those freak cold snaps once every five years or so, there aren't many places that aren't 1 - 2 hours of tough hiking to get to.

Something like a day scrambling the Fiacall Ridge between the Northern Corries would teach you far more about UK winter climbing than steep indoor.

wasn't looking for exact routes , maybe general direction ..   I did read that the Northern Corries were nicely accessible ..  Im not worried about a bit of a walk ..   

As for indoor ice climbing , we plan on using it as a bit of practice with the tools , we have done dry tooling , so this will be a step up from that ...   

people tend to do a bit of indoor climbing to prep for outdoors , I can't see this being any different  ??  

It's completely incomparable to going indoor climbing and then going cragging.

Indoor Ice and dry tooling will not benefit you outdoors unless you are planning on jumping in at quite a grade.

There are no winter crags as such, they are mountains or parts there of and most climbing areas are above 2500ft with a lot of them in the 4000ft region. It is Mountaineering first and climbing second and trying to first build the correct mountain skills before the technical skills is much more important. think closer to hill walking than cragging.

The easiest access is the northern corries in the Cairngorm's and these are probably the harshest and most unforgiving mountains in Scotland as well as being above 4000ft in many places. there are epics here throughout the year and most of these are a result of inadequate mountain skills. (i recall people actually getting lost within Coire an Sneachdta last year)

Re the Ice Factor. A session there won’t hurt but it’s a whole different world to winter climbing. Dry tooling and indoor ice climbing are great for building fitness and fine tuning some (not all) technical aspects but it’s very much a supplement to real winter climbing experience (especially once you have a fair bit of experience) rather than a building block for when you are starting out. So there’s nothing wrong with going to the Ice Factor and it will be good fun but don’t see it as anything more than it is. 

" It's completely incomparable to going indoor climbing and then going cragging" 

I would have to disagree with this ..  all ice climbing aside for a moment ,  indoor sports climbing isn't comparable to outdoor sports climbing which isn't comparable to trad ...  really you actually believe this ?   for sure there are differences , but to say there is no comparison is somewhat of an arrogant statement    im pretty sure that people train indoors for outdoors ..   

" Indoor Ice and dry tooling will not benefit you outdoors unless you are planning on jumping in at quite a grade." 

if it wasn't for the element of becoming accustom to the pre climb winter essentials , then im pretty confidant at my ability at jumping in at quite a grade ... 

We was planning on making the trip a bit of a winter holiday for all , I wanted to go indoor ice climbing as I have never done it , I'm under no illusions that its not going to make me a  Scottish ice champion , but its not going to hurt either , and might even be fun .. 

I have no issues with being above 4000ft , I regularly go to 12k ..  

youve totally misunderstood what I said. earlier you said:

that is what I repliing to. while there are similarities in summer between indoor and outdoor these do not exist in Scotland in winter there are none in winter unless you are planning on Jumping on IV ice or V mixed 

Ok good luck then

once again good luck. unsure why you are making a post filled with red flags when you seem to have it all figured out

"unsure why you are making a post filled with red flags when you seem to have it all figured out"

I was unaware that I was , Im pretty sure I only asked what would be a recommended place to make a start , for some easy climbs with easier access, im pretty sure people have made a bigger deal out of it than need be   ...   

Head to Aviemore, buy the correct map for the area and the Cairngorms winter climbs guidebook. Then buy the online pdf guide for £2.99 for Creagan Coire Cha No. Hopefully you’ll get a break in the weather and have some good visibility (makes finding Cha No a lot easier). Head to Sneachda and plod up some of the gullies, then have a look at some of the slightly harder graded ridge or buttress routes. 

Cha No and Sneachda are roughly 90mins or so approach, depending on snow and your fitness. Sneachda especially is easy to find, Cha No slightly less straight forward but not difficult. 

Don’t expect to find enough ice to do any proper ice climbing, very much mixed with a lot of snow. At least it was this last weekend. 

JRJG 

If you want relatively easily accessible ice then Lurchers Crag might be good. It's better early season than late as it doesn't get as much sun early on.

Be aware of brittle/thin/hollow/wet ice etc as you will likely encounter these outside, and be unlikely to encounter these inside.

Unless it's Aonach Mor E Face, or Hell's Lum, or Cobbler...

if its really cold then try a walk in to here

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2011/01/new_major_ice_venue_in_glencoe-5989...

Short walk in, no height gain, can set up top ropes if you want then try a lead - perfect all the skills you will learn at the Ice Factor

Good luck, enjoy your trip

I think folk (you and me included) were naturally assuming the post related to something a few weeks away, not months. But checking again, the OP did say February.

Cheers ..  eilde canyon looks good  kinda what I was looking for looked it up on the Os map and access is straight forward, cheers much appreciated   ...  

 Have made a note of the other suggestions thanks ..  

The problem is what routes are likely to be safe to approach, descend and climb, or even be in condition, massively depends on conditions leading up to and during yr trip. 

i’d skip the ice factor if I was you, 1 day there is not going to be of much use. However more than 1 day outside with a guide would be useful. Even better go on a winter skills course.

i wouldn’t under estimate how valuable the winter skills are. A typical day on the hill  at grade III or IV involves about 100 meters or so of climbing and lots of crampon and axe use on ground where an uncontrolled slip could easily kill you as well as navigation in often very difficult conditions with equally dangerous consequences of getting it wrong. Also don’t underestimate how important being able to asses and avoid avalanche risk is. They kill people every year up here.

Take the avalanche forecast seriously if you go there. The canyon is a significant terrain trap and the hazard is very real.

Also from what I remember, belays at the top are not necessarily straight forward. An extra rope may be useful for setting them up.

If you're based in the Fort William area then the Scottish Winter Climbs Guidebook is a good option: https://www.smc.org.uk/publications/climbing/scottish-winter-climbs 

A bunch of the easier winter routes with descriptions can be found at the following website: http://scottishwinterroutes.com/ 

Eilde Canyon needs it to be pretty cold (think sub zero at sea level for a few days at least) to form so don't rely on that being in nick for a short walk in etc.  

Doing a session at the ice factor can be fun but if you can try to arrange it for a poor weather day so you don't miss out if there is good weather.  I'd suggest doing a session with an instructor first and then maybe returning a different day to consolidate what you've learned (it's open in the evenings so you could do it after a hill day or just save it for the crap weather days). You might find you're pretty knackered after a couple of hours so spending a whole day at the Ice Factor (unless the weather is really minging!) might not be that productive. 

Have you ever done any winter skills training?, I mean do you know how to use axe, crampons, move safely on snow + ice, avalanche awareness/avoidance etc etc? If you(or any of your party) don't have these skills already then learning this stuff should take precedence over the climbing side of things. 

If you can afford to do a day or two with a guide/MIC then you'll be able to get them to tailor stuff to what you want/need to know. They'll also be best able to give you recommendations for routes you can try as they'll be able to assess your level etc. 

Have a great time and fingers crossed the weather behaves for you. 

Hi Andy.

I would take a lot of these responses with a large pinch of salt if I were you. There's plenty of worthwhile transfer from indoor to outdoor but bear in mind that the greater part of your winter climbing day will consist of walking, shuffling and digging in snow, avalanche avoidance, hunting and excavating protection, navigation and route finding of one sort or another, etc.
 

Coire an t-Sneachda in the Cairngorms and Coire an lochain in Glencoe are pretty accessible and have crags through a variety of aspects, which can be handy for choosing a safe approach, plus you don't have to go too far from these places to leave the crowds behind.

Another thing worth considering is your progression. You mentioned 'building from easy', but varied practice is as beneficial if not more than simply increasing the difficulty - particularly in winter.

Best of luck.

Is that not what most people said? 

Thanks ..  we have just bought the scottish winter climbs book  .. 

will check out what's been recommended