UKC

Getting excited as winter will be here soon, trying to get organised. I’m wondering does anyone want to trade some other tools for a pair of bd vipers?

I got them on a recommendation from a friend but they just seem too big and heavy for me or something, don’t get on with them. They’re the older style orange ones, both hammers, one almost new, the other with a bit more wear. 

Looking for something smaller, ideally dmm fly or quarks (but I know quarks are worth more than my vipers). Just putting it out there in case someone wants to trade.

Cheers,

Jane

If they are the last generation of vipers, they are a much better axe IMO than the fly. Quarks are pretty good, but I've got a pair of both and prefer the vipers.

I know in theory they’re better but I just don’t get along with them, I had been borrowing an ancient pair of flys the season before and just much preferred them.

I think the vipers are a bit heavy or weighted in a way that is better if you’re stronger, everyone who seems to rate them has much bigger arms than me!

But hence the thread, I reckon someone will get a good deal out of it if they have tools they’d rather swap.

Can't help with the swap but sympathise with your problem.

My partner has Vipers and loves them. I find them too heavy and I'm pretty strong. To me they just feel top heavy, cumbersome and too hard to accurately whack things with. FWIW, I have Quarks and find them much easier to swing/ hit stuff with. 

BD's rehead heavy. But I'd not say they are heavier than fly's, although with the fly they balance is out of the head. You might want to add Grivel North Machine's to the mix - super light but with really great penetration and nicely balanced. I've used old BD axes, Cobra's, Old Quarks, DMM Apex's, Grivel Light Alp and these, and they were hands down the best tool I've used considering we were climbing dense water ice and they are light!

^this!

Grivel North machines and the older Matrix Tech Carbon are probably the best swinging axes out there if you find others oversized,  bulky and unwieldy. Plus you won't smash up your knuckles as much as with Flys! 

Maybe it’s a leverage thing, I don’t have any other tools to check against but I have a feeling the vipers are quite ‘long’ and my two friends who swear by them are both very tall. 

It shouldn’t matter as I’m not a good climber but it’s nice to have tools that feel right. 

Open to all offers here people, what do you have gathering dust that might be a good swap?

I borrowed some North Machines for a few pitches in Italy, I liked them but was almost too light, felt like I didn’t have the power to whack them in well. 

Basically I know that I probably will have to shell out £400 for a pair of nice new tools at some point but I would really prefer if that point is after this year.

For now the ideal situation would be to just have a pair of older mediocre axes for Scotland this year for more learning, but not the ones I currently have I’m hoping after another season I’ll be less crap and have a better idea of what I want to buy.

You soloed Lurking Fear. I reckon that makes you stronger and harder than 99% of us here. Just give the tools a hard stare and I'm sure they'll fall into lone.

Having said that, tools are personal but I used old Quarks for nearly a decade before having had orange Vipers for the last decade. They're not too different in weight or swing. I've tried new Quarks and thought they were nice and maybe are a tad lighter, but its probably not a big difference when you look at the weights on the websites. If you ever get the chance to try them, the old green BD Reactors always felt quite dainty. I had a pair for some time.

Good luck with trying to find the right tool for you!

Ebay them and buy a pair of Flys from Needlesport - just under £200 at the moment.

I have a pair of flys older style that I have adapted to leashes, could be tempted 

Leashless 

Could you send me pictures of them? Not quite sure which ones you mean or which way you adapted them, upper and lower rest?

I’ll get some photos of the vipers up tomorrow too.

Cheers,

Jane

I’ll get a few pictures and forward them on

Just bought them, thanks for the spot. Now if anyone wants to buy a fine pair of Vipers...

Will probably try that again closer to UKC winter gear feeding frenzy time.

Glad to help, hope they work for you.

Vipers are decent tools. Flys (flies?) are less technical and may be a bit lighter. Not really worth getting unless you don’t plan to climb above about grade III. Quarks about the same technically but burlier and probably a bit heavier. I’d just stay with the Vipers or get a pair of more technical tools like Nomics or Cassin X Dreams. If you want a reasonably light and compact tool, the Nomics are a good bet but they have the wobbly head issue so depends how much you will (ab)use them. May be the new generation due out this year won’t have this issue any more but we won’t know for a couple of years.

Edit - see you got the Flies now. 

Tbh the combination of reynauds hands and general crappyness means III is the top of my expectations. 

Would just like to learn to move efficiently on that kind of ground this year.

No need to talk yourself down! Winter climbing isn’t that hard on second, with your rock climbing ability you should be able to second Vs and VIs. Leading is a head game in winter so does take getting used to but seconding is pretty steady really.

I get cold fingers and got aches easily as well, don’t know if it’s bad enough to be Reynaud’s but it’s worse than most people anyway. Things which help include big mittens for the walk in and belaying; big belay jacket to keep warm when not moving (if you keep your core warm, the body won’t need to shut down the extremities as much); regular snacks/food; lots of pairs of climbing gloves so you have dry ones ready (keep the next pair of climbing gloves / the belay mitts inside your jacket to keep them warm); regular windmills etc when belaying (trouble with harder climbing is long belays...); drop hands and shake out regularly when climbing. Still get hot aches but seems to be better these days. Thinking of getting heated gloves though!

Are these still up for swap? Have a pair of old style fly's I'd consider swapping!

I've bought some new flys, vipers are now for sale if anyone wants them.

Cheers,

Jane 

I disagree. I've led Grade V with the old style Flys with wrist loops. I've found them to be superb weapons.

I’m sure you can climb V and VI with Flys and wrist loops, after all they’re probably better than whatever the first ascentionists would have had. It’s just that I wouldn’t if given the choice...

I must add that Flys with lanyards and hand holds (which I currently have) are great - even better than those I used to have that had wrist loops!

I think a lot of this chat about what axes are good to what grade is princess and the pea stuff. Like skiers talking about ski width or mtbers and tyre choice it's marketing hype tapping in to our natural desire to have the best tool for the job.

The reality is that the differences are very small and probably more in the head than in the hand. A more technical axe is probably a bit nicer and easier on harder ground but it's not going to be the limiting factor unless you let it become that.

I think this is absurd!

Hi Jane

I've dropped you a message / email.

Thanks,

I think decent tools make a bigger difference at higher grades. Flys vs Nomics don’t make much a difference on a III. However I would definitely notice the difference on a VI.