UKC

So I planning on getting up to Scotland this winter and I'm planning on a doing a few gullies etc.

I'm looking on advice on what you reccomend to wear,I have a few base layers, so I'm just wondering what everyone wears imbetween the base layers and hardshells.

All advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Adam

In reply to Adam Hughes: The classic layer system is base layer, fleece, hard shell. Start with that, and see how you go. A non windproof 'normal' fleece is cheaper and warmer than pretty much anything else.

In reply to Adam Hughes: just a fleece. If its cold: 2 fleeces. If you're pitching stuff, throw a sythetic insulation layer over the top.
Dont waste money on expensive fleeces. A cheep Regatta fleece will be near as damn it as effective as a £90 expensive brand one.
Sythetics different, spend good money on a sythetic layer.

In reply to Adam Hughes: baselayer and a hardshell plus fleece if its cold and a belay jacket in the bag.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

Base layer
Lightweight fleece layer
Soft Shell jacket

Hard shell - In sac for when the weather gets really grim
Belay jacket - if you know you're going to be sat on ledges for a while!

In reply to Adam Hughes: You really need to change it for the conditions. I run quite cold, sometimes I wear a 1/4 zip fleece and a hard shell and am fine other times I've worn a thick fleece, softshell, hardshell and belay jacket on top and been freezing my tits off.

I find the softshell (rab baltoro guide) really good as an extra mid layer as it fits really closely; with the hardshell on top it cuts out any draughts. My hardshell is just too bulky for me (even though it's a small) and I find on a windy day I appreciate the extra draught resistance and warmth of a soft-shell underneath. The only problem is it's really bulky to carry in so I try and go with just a base layer, fleece layer and hardshell then if it's too cold I'll just climb with my belay jacket on top.

You tend to need less in a gully as you'll be moving a lot faster and will often be sheltered from the wind. Base layer, mid layer and hard shell should be fine for most outings. I'd really like to get a hooded synthetic insulation mid layer for the colder days as it'll pack down much smaller than the softshell, probably be slightly warmer and will move more freely over other garments.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

A base layer + 1 additional layer (fleece if it's dry, hard shell if it's wet) for the walk in. Base layer + fleece + hard shell when climbing. If very cold or when I think I might spend quite a long time on belays I'll wear a 4th layer (fleece or belay jacket).

As I don't have salopettes I usually wear 2-3 layers of trousers (thermals, walking trousers and waterproofs) as well, depending on the weather.

Main thing (I find) is to bring enough gloves. Thin pair for the walk in, thick ones for climbing (+ maybe liner gloves) and another thin, dry pair for the walk out.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

Not in Scotland, but when it was -10 plus strong wind windchill ontop of Wetherlam a few years ago when there was awesome snow around, I found a fleece gillet really handy ontop of my fleece and mid and base layer. A gillet takes up hardly any space if you can find one, mine is thick and nice and warm.

In reply to Adam Hughes:I suppose you could cut the arms off a cheap thick fleece if you fail in finding a gillet?

Just something else to confuse you with. ()

In reply to Adam Hughes:

Top: Base layer, Rab Power Stretch top thing, soft shell. With a back up hard shell and belay jacket.

Legs: Merino long johns. Mahoosive socks. Soft shell trousers. Back up hard shell trousers.

Hands: about 25 pairs of gloves.

Feet: Flip flops with nails through them.

In reply to Timmd:

Under my hardshell.

In reply to Adam Hughes: Yeah I have a redpoint Optimus jacket too, just had a pro deal in work so bought myself one and a new point five jacket while it was cheap cheap! I think it was defenatley overdue! But seeing as I've not done much in Scotland I was looking for advice, was looking at softshells but they seem to be short in length and just annoys me even when trying them on in shops, so I'm trying to get a layering system avoiding softshells, I have micro fleeces but I thought I'd need more.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

sounds like you've been trying on "pub" softshells, mine comes down slightly further than my hard shell.

In reply to Adam Hughes: B3s and a sporran, nae more required.

no need for b3's just bare feet and a sporran lol

In reply to Adam Hughes:
The first few times I went out I wore some trousers, a pullover and a waxed jacket. Felt alright! Although, I am pleased there aren't too many pictures of it....
I wouldn't worry too much. You probably won't be standing around too much and won't get too cold whatever you wear doing easy gullys. I usually (and have so for the last 10 years) wear/worn a thermal, a fleece and a waterproof shell. For trousers i wear powerstretch and waterproof shell. I always aim to change into a dry thermal after the walk-in ( unless the weather is a howling blizzard).
I only ever take a belay jacket if it's a potentially really hard route (for me that is) and I expect to be standing around for ages...or I am in the Alps in winter.

In reply to Adam Hughes: Bear in mind you'll only get ideas here as you'll need to find out what works for you but its a safe bet to say it'll be based around the layering system.
For a typical long day in scotland I'll wear merino base layers both top and bottom. Over these are a pair of soft shell stretchy pants for 99% of climbing backed up with hard shell over trousers, the very rare days when its pissing down at sea level I'll go for the warmer and more water repellent sallopettes. I find these heavy and restrictive though. On the top half on top of my base layer I'll wear a 1/4 zip windstopper type fleece and climb with hard shell over the top of it. A belay jacket for instant warmth in the sack. If its really cold I'll chuck the fleece in the sack for an extra layer option and wear a vapourise jacket on top of the base layer. On nice days with no wind and blue skys I'll leave the hard shell and belay jacket behind and just wear base layer with softshell
(RAB baltoro guide)over the top and a fleece in the sack.
Hat and balaclava, 3 pairs gloves - climbing, walk in and warm walk outs. I'm a coldie but the classic layer system works well for me but I've always get extra should I need it and I usually do when tired and walking out in the dark. Mate wears very similar and we have a bothy bag for emergency. The clothes I take will keep me alive for a night out as long as I'm out of the wind, hence the bothy. I've climbed with folk who take spare sock but can never understand why? I mean its not like you take your boots off is it plus if feet are wet the chances are it isn't cold enough to freeze water so not cold enough to warrant spare socks.
Keep moving is the key really, constantly regulating your layers and if foresee youself stopping (reaching a belay) then prepare to adjust layers (belay jacket) before you get cold, not waiting until you do get cold.

In reply to blanchie14c:

It only needs to be not cold enough to freeze water at ground level, which is often the case. I have to say I never take spare socks as I'd hate to be the person who expects everyone else to stand around like a fanny while you f**k about with your underwear.
Having said that my feet are always drenched and get really cold climbing, a spare pair of socks would be fantastic. I guess it depends how wet the walk in is and if you have waterproof boots.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

It's important to nail them so that the points point downwards rather than up, a common mistake made by first timers.

Have used the layering system successfully several times, extra fleece if cold. Have got some Buffalo salopettes and a mountain shirt this year so looking forward to trying them out in anger.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

I'm amazed that everyone else on this thread hasn't already died of hypothermia.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

Interesting that no one has mentioned buffalo or montane. I find a base layer and the montane extreme smock on top, and thermals under some softshell trousers works fine for most conditions. Sometimes too warm on the walk in, and a light synthetic belay jacket to through on top for when you stop. Climb in some cheap biking gloves, change to mitts for belaying, and make some wrist warmers out of some support bandage. Prevents that annoying cold spot between glove and cuff.

In reply to talon_guy:

'and make some wrist warmers out of some support bandage.'

Or a set of caving suit replacement cuffs:

http://www.inglesport.com/caving/caving-clothing/oversuits/warmbac-oversuit...

In reply to Exile: Or get your Sister to knit you a pair from Merino.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

As various people have said, it's a fairly individual thing depending on whether you run hot or cold, and also what system you're using. I use Paramo (which people on here either love or hate) which tends to keep you quite warm. Alta trousers which are waterproof and lined are fine on their own even in serious wind chill. I also use an Aspira smock over a base layer for walking and add a fleece for climbing (when you're moving slowly or standing on belay). HTH. Simon.

In reply to talon_guy:

I was going to mention Montane! I wear the Montane Extreme jacket (with hood sewn on, don't trust that velcro) over a cheap merino base layer (from Mountain Warehouse), with a Rab Neutrino jacket in the 'sac for belays. Bottom half is cheap merino long johns and my aging but trusty Lowe Alpine Triplepoint Ceramic hardshell trousers. If I think it's going to be really cold I'll augment the long johns with a pair of Ron Hill Trackster Treks. Proper fashion victim, me.

That's the normal outfit, but as Ben Sharp says, you need to be prepared to adapt depending on the conditions.

In reply to stevez:

What he said

In reply to Heike:

I wore breeches and a Barbour to the top of Mount Kenya. It worked rather well. I do have photos, but the worst of it is the very dodgy dark brown Phoenix helmet (it was cheap - and there was a reason for that)

In reply to Sharp: I often used to have a spair pair of socks in my sac when I lived in Scotland, partly in case I ever got benighted & wanted dry socks to keep my feet warm, partly as in an emergency that can be used as mittens. But never used them...

In reply to Adam Hughes:

I have moved away from the traditional layering system a little bit, primarily because I am not really a fan of the suit of armour approach of sticking an expensive and relatively heavy layer of Gore-tex (other membranes available) over everything. I find this practice lacking in flexibility, both in terms of movement and temperature control.

The system I now go with is in my opinion more comfortable, more breathable, easier to move in and cheaper as well. Obviously whatever system you use, the amount of insulation you need is dependant on whether you run hot or cold, the temperature and the activity you are doing. What I describe here is great for me on a winter mountain day a degree or two below zero, but can cope with extremis and standing around on cold belays.

For legs softshell is definitely the way forward, I usually wear it on its own, but if it is cold or you feel the cold, layer over a thin thermal. I carry the lightest possible waterproof trouser that I can get over a crampon shod boot for if it gets really crappy and I want extra protection. Cheap is good, breathability does not matter for this item.

For my top half I wear a Patagonia R1 hoody (cheaper stuff can do the same job) next to the skin with a pertex windproof over the top, this is a really warm combination if you are active. I have a 60g fill primaloft pullover which I will throw over the pertex if it is really cold or doing something less active. Finally I have the primaloft belay jacket and very lightweight waterproof in the sac. Again the waterproof doesn’t have to be later most breathable and expensive model, I haven’t worn a waterproof in winter for years, if I am wearing it, I am in rapid retreat. The 60g primaloft is a recent addition, I have managed without in the past, but I am getting soft in my old age.

It is sort of my version of the classic Twight action suit.

In reply to The New NickB:

So, when climbing all you've got on is an R1 Hoody and a pertex windproof? Sounds chilly to me!

In reply to galpinos:

I would certainly have died of cold long before getting to the route (and probably have gone hypothermic in the car before the heater really got going). If I really could survive with that little clothing I would be so light and flexible that I would be able to climb at least three grade harder.

In reply to Adam Hughes: My advice would be not to wear too much when you set off. I'm always amazed to see these people stripping off at the foot of the crag to change into a dry base layer - WTF? "Be bold, start off cold" as they say. I like a thin hooded 1/2 zip fleece, so you can forget the hat, buff etc. and unzip for the medallion man (woman) look if you need to cool down without a full strip.

Good ventilation is key - either get a thin windproof/ softshell with a good hood, or a hardshell with massive "pit zip" ventilation. Your bottom half tends to need less temperature management than the top, but trousers with venting options are a good idea too.

I'd also recommend some thin shell mitts to go over your gloves - they don't need to be big bulky warm ones, just something to cut the evaporation heat loss when it's windy and your climbing gloves are wet.

Synthetic insulation vests are a good idea too, small and light and quick to chuck on for a quick boost if you stop.

Good socks are worth it too, you can get away with lighter boots and stay warm.

In reply to galpinos:

It is fine for me when active, probably down to -10, can be too warm when nearer zero. As I have pointed out I have other layers with me and the amount of insulation you need depends on a number of factors.

In reply to Adam Hughes:
if you don't have/want expensive, fancy mountaineering trousers, and you don't like long johns, tracksuit bottoms under (breathable) waterproof trousers seem to work pretty well. Wear gaiters.

As for gloves, this thread: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=521930 covers some interesting and cheap alternatives to the more extortionate mountaineering gloves..

In reply to davy_boy: String vest, tartan wool shirt, wool pullover, and on top an ex-aircraft carrier deck crew ventile smock, Stil-longs, and tweedy breeks...ah those were the days!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Looks like you may be the exception and may run very cold.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Kilt. mars bar and flask of Irn Bru?

I have been reliably informed that the advice here is invaluable: http://rule5.org/

That aside, I'm a fan of Paramo fabrics (though actual Paramo garments aren't always so good; Cioch Direct's stuff is an excellent alternative). I've never actually tried pile/pertex kit, but fiddling with it in a shop suggests that it is a wee bit warmer than Paramo, so it might well be a bit too toasty for my needs.

In reply to Adam Hughes: Buffalo sallopettes and Smock (with hood), Lightweight packable shell in the pack sized to fit over smock, supergaiters when I think it's going to be wet and slushy (or when I CBA taking them off my boots).

If its a bit warmer, I switch out the sallopettes for softshell trousers, and have some waterproofs in my pack.

My smock is on its last legs, so this season i've been out in traditional layers on my top half (wicking base layer, Helly pile midlayer or thick knitted woolen midlayer, depending on temperature, hagglofs hardshell) a few times; it's so much more awkward to control your temperature.

In reply to Adam Hughes:
I tend to run warm so mid-layer options are usually
1) nothing (often do this on the walk-in, better than faffing to strip layers after 20 minutes)
2) a second base layer
3) a skinny fleece, ideally with long arms - this is my go to for actual climbing

Once you've put your harness on, you won't want to take any of this off so get it about right for the climbing and supplement with neck tubes / thicker gloves / belay jacket on stances. I reckon a spare base layer is worth a couple of hundred grams - swapping to a dry one before climbing can make a big difference in comfort and you can still use the original one for a little extra warmth if needed. I've usually got my alternate gloves and sometimes a fleece neck warmer down my front and a sack on my back so torso warmth isn't often an issue.

Enjoy

Buffalo teclite salopettes.
Buffalo big face shirt.
Buffalo belay jacket.
Buffalo Mitts.

I wear merino leggings under the salopettes if it's cold (this typically means cold enough not to rain). Might get some dp salopettes this year. Use a 200gsm merino upper layer on its own for walk in if warmish in valley, then dump in pack.

Buffalo mitts are excellent. £25 / pair. They get wet if it is warm enough, but you really don't care.

I've been completely soaked in this get up and completely happy. You dry out really quick if you keep moving once the rain lets up.

I used to carry some heavy duty hi vis goretex overtrousers - sort you can get off ebay for £10 - for when it got really horrible, but haven't bothered more recently.

Main issue is avoiding getting damp from sweat on the walk in.

I've moved to two base layers and a soft shell jacket. Much drier as it's more breathable.

A spare fleece and a synthetic down in the pack too.

Lots of thin and outer gloves.

Worst weather is wet snow and wind = cold and wet.

I have old fashioned pile mitts, North Cape brand, if all my gloves soak through.

In reply to stevez:

I'm beginning to wish UKC had a 'like' button or something similar.

In reply to Adam Hughes:
As other people have said it is very personal so go out and experiment what works for you.
I find that the when walking in it is oftern warm so only a base layer and maybe a light wieght windproof will be fine
If its cold then I will add a thin mid layer.
while climbing it tendes to be colder so oftern wear a lightwieght fleece and almost always a hard shell. on my legs usualy just soft shell trousers but if its very wet then I will wear base layer bottoms with hard shell salopetts over.
I always have a belay jacket in my sack for if I stop.
The main thing is lots of gloves
Hope this helps and just experiment to find what works for you but remember
Be Bold Start Cold because you will warm up alot when you start slogging up the hill!

In reply to Adam Hughes:

An avalanche transceiver

In reply to Adam Hughes:

Tights.....

In reply to Gav Parker:

pffft tights....naked is the only way to go....

BOS

In reply to Adam Hughes:
depending on conditions. On a typical day on the Ben...
Base layer and a thin windproof (Montane Featherlite) for walk in and the grind up to the route. Then take off windproof and pop on a pertex/microfleece layer (Rab Vapourise or Marmpt DriClime) if it's one of those still, sunny days or if proper chilly I might use Montane Extreme smock instead. Usually have hard shell in bag.
Soft shell trousers (usually Quencha ones from Decathlon which are excellent value). Cheap waterproof trousers (A pair of Berghaus Deluge which have full length zips) kept in bag.

Waterproofs go on for glissading Number 4

In reply to The New NickB:

Yes, but what astonishes me is that I don't just wear a bit more but twice as much as anyone else on here.

In reply to Adam Hughes:

I go with:
Berghaus Smoulder hoodie (the old style 3/4 zip one with thumb loops)
Thin windproof
Heavy duty but uninsulated soft shell
Baselayer for legs
Heavy duty soft shell trousers

Hat
2x pairs of gloves
Mitts

Sometimes a belay jacket
Never hardshells

In reply to Adam Hughes:

A light windproof top is a good idea, particularly while you are still working out what works best for you.

There is Pertex, Ventile, and variations thereon in nylon, polyester and cotton. Typically, there is a Paramo smock for about £55 that is essentially like the outer skin of their full smock. Like many of these light smocks, it crunches up into a handful and weighs very little. Once you have one of these over your base layer and fleece shirt then its similar in effect to a Paramo or Buffalo smock but without the weight, expense and possiibly unnecessary warmth. This will allow you finer control over your clothing set. (You can go TOO light with this!)

In reply to Robert Durran:


Are you just a "wee slip of lad" Robert? I suppose its a bell curve. You're on one side and there will somebody at the other end curve; standing around belaying for hours happily in a lifa baselayer with a pertex over, wondering why everyone else isn't boiling.

In reply to TobyA:

A few years ago I was probably about 8kg heavier, the lighter me definitely feels the cold a bit more. That said I would definitely be too hot on the walk in most times with much more than R1 and pertex.

In reply to TobyA:

I am very tall, 91kg but cannot put on any insulating blubber despite eating twice as much as anyone else I know. Basically I've got a crap body for mountaineerring, needing to carry twice the weight in food and clothing as other people!


Yes, I'm an outlying freak.


Bastard. Hopefully a fat one.

In reply to Adam Hughes: I tried to go totally base layer less last sunday. I got really cold. I cant recomend it

In reply to Sharp:

I read about somebody's hands being saved from frostbite thanks to his partner having a spare pair of thick wool socks. You never know. ()

(tounge in cheek)

In reply to Adam Hughes:

iwas in scotland for the winter of 2001/02 and wore a mix of goretex, fleece, down, pertex and wool.

still got soaked and cold tho...

In reply to Adam Hughes:

I tinker quite a lot with my system (prob got too much gear).

Constants are:
Baselayer, synthetic if mildish, merino if cold
microfleece (in bag for walk in)
Aspira smock
ME primaloft belay jacket.

The legs vary. Usually some fairly tough soft shell pants (my preferred pair are hagloffs) for the walk in, with a goretex layer for the route. If its proper cold, I'll wear longjohns too, or swap the soft shell for some fleece salopettes.

The most important thing is lots of gloves. Ill have a couple of pair of fleecy liners, something beefy to climb in, and I've got some waterproof overmitts should the proverbial hit the fan.

In reply to Adam Hughes: best bit of kit is one of these - Scottish wool balaclava - £17.50 from Joe Brown,

Ian Fife

In reply to Adam Hughes: Base layer, Fleece, Softshell, Windshirt, Waterproof. Long Johns, Softshell trousers, Salopettes. Add/Subtract accodring to how hot you are/how wet and miserable it is.

In reply to Adam Hughes:
HH Lifa, Buffalo Mountain Shirt (Also use an old style Montane exped smock)Ron Hills trackster or similar for the walk in/out, overlayered with a pair of Buffalo teclite salopettes. Plus Lightweight hardshells should it get really bad. I run hot so I find that I can control temp well with this combo.

In reply to crashnodrog:

Plus a belay jacket as backup.