UKC

Help me out please! Prior to a crux it seems wise to put as much gear in as possible. Can you attach multiple pieces to one quickdraw? Or would it be better to use multiple quickdraws in close proximity?

I'm sure there's a load of info on this but Google is coming up short. 

Thanks! 

Birds nests!!! I do this all the time and my mates take the mick out of me for it but I can't help it, and it saves on quick draws (I also have a habit of only putting 2-3 draws on my harness). Technically you could be more likely to bend crabs over each other if you cluster alssirts on there but I wouldn't be overly concerned. 

If the pieces were positioned carefully. Equalising could be you biggest issue and you'd have to be careful to they didn't pull on the gate. 

The top piece would take all the force. If it failed then you would shock-load the next piece, unless they happen to be perfectly equalised in their placement (but no more than if you had 2 pieces on separate draws I don't think). 

If you are comfortable enough to equalise the pieces then do that. It's not too hard to put a sliding-x on 2 close pieces with a small sling. You'll still risk shock-loading a piece but at least the force of the fall will be evenly spread between the two pieces. 

If using 2 ropes then put a piece on each and the force will be spread more evenly between the gear. 

I guess it depends on why you are putting a cluster in - is the gear shit, is the rock shit, is it a cluster of micros, etc. 

Just be aware of cross loading a karabiner by clipping several pieces into it. I sometimes place wires for example, each on its own karabiner, into the sling of one quickdraw to avoid this.

I occasionally do this but only if it's two wires really close together.  More often, if I can arrange it with different length draws, I'll put two pieces in, each with their own draw, linking into one crab for the rope.  I think it just looks tidier and if you arrange it properly it equalises the load a bit.

Similar, but tidier than my option.

Thanks, this seems like the sensible solution. 

As others have said it is not ideal but I'm sure we've all done it. If you have run out of gear or are in extremis, sometimes a sub optimal solution will have to do.

But is the 'shock loading' any different to the shock loading when any piece of gear fails and the weight moves down to the next piece. The assumption is that the guy is short of quick draws.

I find it useful sometimes, where gear is so close together that fitting 2 grabs in a confined space is likely to cause the krabs to interfere, or where an ok cam can stabilise a wire which might otherwise lift.  Horses for courses, it pays to be able to adapt and improvise rather than getting too bogged down by 'best practices '.

I wouldn’t teach it, but I certainly do it myself from time to time. Better to understand the limitations of doing it and act accordingly. 
 

A better way would be to use multiple quickdraws and clip some of your gear cluster to each rope, or equalise several marginal pieces with a sling but this isn’t always possible of course.

This.

A huge amount could be written about gear placements, especially when it comes to "in extremis" situations where you are pumped stupid or there just aren't any good placements.

If you are building a nest of gear, just make sure when you are finished that carabiner gates are rotated so that nothing can unclip, ropes are routed so they don't cross and try to check that you haven't done anything else that looks wrong (easier said than done, especially when you are just starting out).

I'd be a little reticent to suggest a beginner uses a sliding-x arrangement on lead because they are probably going to be stressed and a) it takes longer than using 2 draws or 1 draw in the same 2 bits of gear and b) if you screw up by clipping your draw across both sling thicknesses without putting the x bit in then if _either_ piece of gear fails, the draw will just slide off the end of your arrangement and leave the other piece stuck in the rock and you plummeting downwards. (even if they only clip one strand of the sling, this is still sub-optimal as it can lead to both pieces of gear being pulled sharply sideways as well as the downward direction intended if there is a fall).

If you find yourself often placing 2 bits very close, I'd recommend fitting one or two of your quickdraws with a screwgate at one end so you can clip both pieces of gear with the screwgate and then screw it shut for a little more peace of mind (but this also more faff, so it's more horses and courses if you are getting very pumped).

People often talk about shock loading. Without wishing to be picky, all loadings in a fall scenario are “shock loads”. The simple fact is that if a piece takes some load, i.e. the first one to be loaded but then fails, the load on the second will be much much smaller than on the first and is LESS likely to fail. Yes, spreading load is a good idea, but clipping two into one is not intrinsically bad, just less good. Mind you, if you put a sliding x on something and one piece fails, the load will then transfer to the one piece after taking up the slack in the sliding x, and the load has time to build momentum, so infact a sliding x could if you were unlucky be worse than clipping two pieces which are right next to one another... just saying like...

I'd have to be in extremis (ie about to fall any second and I don't trust either piece alone) to clip both into one quickdraw.  It's quite likely to cross load the top krab and that can be bad.

If I was doing this because I just wanted a nest of gear - because I didn't like the look of the next move or there was a runout coming - I'd choose to use individual quickdraws, and preferably split between both ropes if possible.

If this was because I didn't trust either placement alone, I'd look to equalise as best possible, either by individual quickdraws to both ropes or using a sliding X.  If it's several small pieces and I can find the strength to hang around I'd build the best attempt at an equalised anchor that I could (but do recognise that static slings don't really equalise all that effectively). 

If I'd simply run out of quickdraws, I'd probably consider taking one apart to get two individual krabs, but this will depend on how likely it is that rope drag might lift a piece out.

Same here. Only up to about 3cm difference, though. Thinking about it, I've done it mostly when placing "nests" of microwires, where I'd use up too many draws having them all separate.

Especially when using a single rope I've sometimes clipped more than one runner via a single extender, even if it means there is no sharing of the load. This is because I've been worried about one point being drawn into another and causing the rope to jam or opening the other krab, particularly if I haven't got the correct sizes of extenders available.

Surely one on each half rope with their own draw is the "correct" way?

It depends how the ropes run.  There's usually no advantage in clipping both ropes into effectively the same point, and unless the pitch is pretty much a straight line there's often a good reason not to.

Redundant gear is a great idea.

Two pieces on one quickdraw is ok so long as one can't cause the other to come loose. This is ok with massive breaks and splitters, less so crazed sections, blocks and spikes. It'd be an unusual pair of placements that allowed halfway decent load sharing with one quickdraw.

One quickdraw per piece of gear on independent ropes is best, it spreads the load across the ropes and gear near perfectly and can help you control a swing after a fall plus it really is fully redundant.

Quickdraws can un-clip themselves, usually from the rope, it happened to me twice that I'm aware of in a few thousand routes, not often but both times they were (ironically as I don't like to climb like this) all that was between me and the floor which is probably why I remember!

jk

Not the same point but two pieces one on either side of the climber along the rope line is what I’d aim for ideally