This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Morning all, I'm sure there is mileage in this topic. But was climbing yesterday and witnessed someone teaching a new climber how to belay on an assisted-braking belay device. What are peoples view/advice on this? I always assumed that it was good practice to teach on a non assisted-braking belay device (ATC) with a back up belayer to start off with?
In reply to mangodays:
I cant see any problem with it. for most devices the principle of operation is the same as you still need to keep hands on the brake line and pay out/ take in rope in much the same way.
there is a lot to learn and if you are going to make a mistake its probably going to happen early on. so why not start with an assisted device for the added security and switch to an ATC once confident.
11
2
In reply to mangodays:
+1 for what Paul says - assisted braking is a godsend for sketchy beginner belaying. It's just important that when they do come to use a tube device that they understand the difference.
2
In reply to MischaHY:
> +1 for what Paul says - assisted braking is a godsend for sketchy beginner belaying. It's just important that when they do come to use a tube device that they understand the difference.
I'd suggest that tailing them achieves the same end result and means that they fully understand the use of a tube device before moving on to more complex options.
6
1
In reply to mangodays:
> I always assumed that it was good practice to teach on a non assisted-braking belay device (ATC) with a back up belayer to start off with?
That's a good practice, but its not the only one.
4
In reply to timjones:
I'd suggest that an assisted braking device is less complex as it allows them to focus on the climber and belaying technique whilst it is imperfect but knowing there is a backup, thereby keeping everybody safer.
I really can't understand the UKC attitude towards assisted braking, it's ridiculous. They're clearly better than tubes and the only real reason to choose a tube (from a safety perspective) is when climbing trad and wanting the extra rope slip to soften the fall. Beginners clearly don't need this.
11
12
In reply to MischaHY:
Heavier, more complicated, much more expensive, possible to thread wrong way, can be grabbed and made unsafe when panicking, harder to pay out smoothly.
Other than that, clearly better...
Post edited at 11:05
14
10
In reply to Oceanrower:
...most of those points are specific to the grigri. Not so much some of the newer devices such as the Mammut Smart or click-up.
Post edited at 11:23
5
In reply to MischaHY:
> I'd suggest that an assisted braking device is less complex as it allows them to focus on the climber and belaying technique whilst it is imperfect but knowing there is a backup, thereby keeping everybody safer.
> I really can't understand the UKC attitude towards assisted braking, it's ridiculous. They're clearly better than tubes and the only real reason to choose a tube (from a safety perspective) is when climbing trad and wanting the extra rope slip to soften the fall. Beginners clearly don't need this.
WTH do you call it a UKC attitude?
It's a personal opinion that it is better to teach people using a standard plate so that they develop good habits before moving onto assisted devices.
As for assisted braking devices being "clearly better than tubes" I think we will have to agree to differ.
6
2
In reply to mangodays:
my opinion is still to start with the tube/atc type with a backup belayer simple because i'm 95% Trad climber. If you had a beginner belaying you, you are not going to climb anything hard (you'd prob be able to solo it) so the likelyhood of them needing the assisted-braking is none. I can see their appeal when clipping bolts though, but as there's not much easier (begginner) sport crags compared to Trad ones I still maintain that you learn the basics first.
2
In reply to MischaHY:
sorry bud, if you said better for sport climbing i'd agree, but more people trad climb in this country.
4
2
In reply to timjones:
"... it is better to teach people using a standard plate so that they develop good habits before moving onto assisted devices"
Isn't this akin to learning to drive in a car with no seat-belts?
3
8
In reply to Removed User:
Of course not!
It's like either learning to drive an auto or a manual with dual controls. Both are perfectly safe with a good teacher and the manual option gives you a wider set of skills to use in future.
7
In reply to timjones:
Thanks, fair point!
There is a bit of distinction though between the Grigri and some of the newer devices (Smart, Click-up...). With these devices the technique is essentially the same as a tube device. I think if you learned on these then it would transfer to a tube device.
2
1
In reply to Oceanrower:
> Heavier
Nope:
https://www.austrialpin.at/en/products/belay-devices/detail/ab20b-set-fish-...
Weighs the same as an ATC:
https://weighmyrack.com/Belay/Black-Diamond-ATC
> More complicated
Hence why they're being taught how to use it.
> Much more expensive
Nope:
https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/belays/edelrid/jul-2
Costs the same as a reverso:
https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/belays/petzl/reverso-4
> possible to thread wrong way
This argument died with the introduction of toothed belay devices, plus literally nobody is ever going thread something like the Fish the wrong way round unless they've never seen it before and have no idea how it works (did we mention this person is being instructed?).
> can be grabbed and made unsafe when panicking
As opposed to an ATC which is just fine to grab when you should be holding the rope for dear life.
> harder to pay out smoothly
I feel like you've never used most of the semi-autos on the market. Belaying with them is a dream. Grigri is the only one that is harder to release under tension.
I'm a massive fan of reverso, pivot etc but there's no denying that a) most people start on sport, indoors, and b) semi-auto devices are far superior for this use.
9
4
In reply to Paul Hy:
Nope, more people boulder indoors. Then less but still more people climb sport indoors. Then, and only then does trad potentially take the lead - although I'd be willing to question that as well considering the popularity of places like Horseshoe and Harpur Hill despite them being dire. Given that we're talking about teaching beginners I'd say it's fair to assume they're starting indoors like the vast majority of other climbers these days in which case a semi-auto is by far the best bet.
Please don't assume I'm being rude - just convinced of my stance on this one!
7
2
In reply to timjones:
> WTH do you call it a UKC attitude?
Fair enough. It's just dogma. Often people who trot it out have never used anything other than an ATC - I appreciate this may not be the case for yourself which is fine.
> It's a personal opinion that it is better to teach people using a standard plate so that they develop good habits before moving onto assisted devices.
I don't personally see how 'don't take your hand of the rope or the other guy will die' is any harder to grasp when the catch is a wee bit easier to be honest. They're called semi-auto for a reason - the rope will still run if you let go.
> As for assisted braking devices being "clearly better than tubes" I think we will have to agree to differ.
In context - i.e. teaching beginners. Although to be honest sport belaying is way easier with one, especially projecting.
Post edited at 14:32
4
2
In reply to MischaHY:
Ok so the very lightest brake-assisted devices are lighter than the very heaviest normal plates, the very cheapest are cheaper than the most expensive normal ones.
How about the safety of having something universal, that when you look at your climbing club friend's device you know how to use it, safely due to standardised, simple mechanism, that's suitable to top-roping, lead sport, lead trad, one or two ropes, forgiving about rope diameter, difficult to set up incorrectly.
Most assisted-devices my immediate reaction is wtf is that and how on earth does it work. Maybe when there was basically just the gri-gri it was simple enough but now it's a complete minefield that only somebody with experience should enter, with caution
Also, perhaps wrongly, I'd trust a human who has to hold a dead-rope to hold it, over one that should hold the dead-rope
3
2
In reply to trouserburp:
"Also, perhaps wrongly, I'd trust a human who has to hold a dead-rope to hold it, over one that should hold the dead-rope"
Assisted belays add security not just in the case of 'bad belaying' but also in the event of something happening to the belayer outside of their control e.g.
- a rock, phone, ... falling on them,
- they trip and release their hands from the rope
- they have a heart attack or faint
2
In reply to Removed User:
I'd say that it might be the same when taking rope in, but it most definitely isn't the same when it comes to lowering.
Unless my memory is letting me down there are at least as many accidents whilst lowering as there are whilst climbing.
1
In reply to Removed User:
> "Also, perhaps wrongly, I'd trust a human who has to hold a dead-rope to hold it, over one that should hold the dead-rope"
> - a rock, phone, ... falling on them,
> - they trip and release their hands from the rope
> - they have a heart attack or faint
This is called "clutching at straws".
How many beginners learning belaying do you honestly think this has happened to?
Especially the fainting/heart attack bit!
1
3
In reply to Oceanrower:
I agree it is very, very unlikely. However, the consequences are potentially very, very severe.
In terms of risk analysis, I imagine it is getting increasingly hard for climbing wall not to stipulate the use of assisted belays,
1
In reply to Removed User:
> In terms of risk analysis, I imagine it is getting increasingly hard for climbing wall not to stipulate the use of assisted belays,
Now, working in the trade, as it were, that one I can help you with.
Absolutely not at all.
4
In reply to timjones:
Yes, agreed. They differ somewhat in the lowering. However, the principle of always having both hands on the dead end is the same across devices.
In reply to MischaHY:The problem is that I see instructors being sloppy in their instructing because they believe that the device will do their job for them.
Also without the early experience of holding the full weight of the climber without assistance from the device you have to ensure that they are taught well at the point of transition to a standard plate.
> Fair enough. It's just dogma. Often people who trot it out have never used anything other than an ATC - I appreciate this may not be the case for yourself which is fine.
> I don't personally see how 'don't take your hand of the rope or the other guy will die' is any harder to grasp when the catch is a wee bit easier to be honest. They're called semi-auto for a reason - the rope will still run if you let go.
Also without the early experience of holding the full weight of the climber without assistance from the device you have to ensure that they are taught well at the point of transition to a standard plate.
> In context - i.e. teaching beginners. Although to be honest sport belaying is way easier with one, especially projecting.
In the conext of teaching beginners you cannot assume that an assisted device will do your job for you, if you are sloppy enough to need to use an assisted device then I would not want you teaching anyone that I cared for.
I also don't follow this belief that it is easier for sport belaying, belaying is not hard if you are strong enough to project a route then belaying should not be difficult or taxing.
3
1
In reply to Removed User:
> Yes, agreed. They differ somewhat in the lowering. However, the principle of always having both hands on the dead end is the same across devices.
Except you cannot have both hands on the dead end if you are having to use one of them to operate a lever to lower the climber.
1
In reply to Removed User:
> Yes, agreed. They differ somewhat in the lowering. However, the principle of always having both hands on the dead end is the same across devices.
https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Lowering-with-the-GRIGRI-on-the-harness-...
In reply to Oceanrower:
Rightly or wrongly some gyms in the Singapore/US already do,
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/walls+training/atc_banned_in_singapore_gy...
In reply to trouserburp:
I differentiated between the Grigri in my post above. I fully agree that using a gri-gri is very diffeent from using a tube device.
In reply to Removed User:
My apologies. I wrongly assumed what the UK bit on UKClimbing stood for.
2
In reply to Removed User:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/belays/assisted_braking_belay_devi...
It's a digression but many require one hand on device
2
In reply to Oceanrower:
Sorry for any offence. The point I was trying to get across was that for indoor climbing and outdoor sport, the newer devices have only very minor negatives in terms cost, weight, handling. However, they offer significant protection in the (very rare) case of the belayer becoming incapacitated (rock fall, trips, health) and in the (not so rare) cases of bad belaying. Everyone I know who has moved over to assisted belays hasn't moved back to using a tube device.
2
2
In reply to trouserburp:
I think in those cases the other hand is on the device and the rope. Myself and other people I know who have switched to them have generally found that lowering off takes a bit of practice and it is a bit jerky at first but in essence it is the same as using a tube device.
Post edited at 15:32
1
In reply to timjones:
> I also don't follow this belief that it is easier for sport belaying, belaying is not hard if you are strong enough to project a route then belaying should not be difficult or taxing.
If your partner is working a route, particularly one new to them, you might have to belay for 1-2 hrs at a time, repeatedly hauling them back up after falls to previous high-points, to try the moves again. In those situations, a Gri-Gri or similar is near essential.
Post edited at 15:56
2
2
In reply to Removed User:
> I agree it is very, very unlikely. However, the consequences are potentially very, very severe.
More or less likely with the same consequences than someone being taught with an assisted breaking device and using a non-assisted breaking device incorrectly?
(For the record I have a grigri which I use regularly [fat mates working routes], and still teach with an ATC initially, and this thread is about teaching)
Post edited at 16:04
3
In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
Make the lazy feckers haul themselves back up to their high point, serves them right for falling off
1
1
In reply to Removed User:
> I agree it is very, very unlikely. However, the consequences are potentially very, very severe.
> In terms of risk analysis, I imagine it is getting increasingly hard for climbing wall not to stipulate the use of assisted belays,
Maybe that is because they turn a blind eye to the risks associated with moving away from an assisted belay to a standard plate when a climber moves on to trad climbing outdoors.
When introducing people to a sport risk analysis isn't only about what happens under the artificial confines of an indoor facility.
1
In reply to JoshOvki:
In my mind, there seems a clear distinction between the Grigri and all the other devices. Trying to use a ATC like a Gri-gri could be 'interesting'.
With the other devices, my gut feeling is that using an ATC like the other devices. Assuming taking-in is the same with the assisted device and that at all times there is at least one hand on the dead end of the rope, then it should still be safe....
...though, to be honest, I am not certain.
When they do competency checks at the wall, they have always checked I am happy using my own (assisted) belay. However, does that mean I would still be 'safe' using using a different belay?
Post edited at 16:31
2
In reply to Removed User:
Sounds like you have been climbing and while and have enough sense to tell the difference. From my experience people are stupid, and do stupid things (like teach people to belay on your own without someone else to back them up, and without telling them how to lower you to boot).
From an ex-wall walkers point of view you are happy using the device you are using, why rock the boat?! Much like asking someone that is using a spring stichplate to use a grigri.
2
In reply to Removed User:
> There is a bit of distinction though between the Grigri and some of the newer devices (Smart, Click-up...). With these devices the technique is essentially the same as a tube device. I think if you learned on these then it would transfer to a tube device.
This is a potentially dangerous piece of misinformation, because there's a crucial difference: with assisted braking devices it's considered acceptable to slide or jump the hand up the dead rope when taking in rope; this is not good practice with a tube device.
1
2
In reply to MischaHY:
yeah but you don't need a belay devise to boulder! i got the impression from the OP that the instruction was taking place outdoors. I'll admit that more people are climbing sport nowadays than before but still nowhere near as much as trad is done.
1
In reply to mangodays:
I think there have been many fair points made about at least some of the assisted-braking devices perhaps working better for beginners. And I'm not against such devices, I use one myself for almost all my climbing. And yet, I can't help but see the automation of belaying as part of a constellation of things that contributes to an increasingly casual attitude towards fundamental safety procedures---belaying being perhaps the primary one.
Every time I go to the gym or a popular crag, I see belayers paying little or no attention to their leaders. These belayers are chatting with others and often leave huge loops of slack hanging so they don't short-rope a clipping leader. The fact that they are responsible for someone's well-being and possibly someone's life appear to be a very distant concerns.
It's not fair to blame this entirely on assisted-braking devices; surely the disco atmosphere in many gyms contributes to the sense of frivolity as well. But I feel that the more separated we become from such basic things as hanging on to the brake strand, the more we rely on technology to do the dirty work for us, the easier it is to lose the fundamental level of vigilence one would hope is characteristic of decent belaying. And I think that if you don't start out with that focus and attention, you aren't likely to learn it later on.
So on balance, I think it is better to learn with an ATC (and a person backing it up at first). I think the very fallibiiity of the device, if that's the right word for it, concentrates the mind in a way you want to become ingrained before automatic belaying is offered.
9
In reply to rgold:
I agree ATC first for solid grounding. A bit like learning to drive a manual car, after which driving automatic is easy.
4
In reply to MischaHY:
> I really can't understand the UKC attitude towards assisted braking, it's ridiculous. They're clearly better than tubes and the only real reason to choose a tube (from a safety perspective) is when climbing trad and wanting the extra rope slip to soften the fall. Beginners clearly don't need this.
Ouch, that's going to create a "debate"!!
Having used both, I haven't yet found an assisted braking device that doesn't stick when paying out rope quickly, but I've only tried the gri-gri 2 and the ClickUp so far...
1
In reply to Paul Hy:
> yeah but you don't need a belay devise to boulder!
Dunno, I've done a few in Font where I've wished I was on belay...
> i got the impression from the OP that the instruction was taking place outdoors.
If it was outdoors on trad then tube all the way - by far the simplest way to handle double ropes and to give a good catch!
2
In reply to mangodays:
> Morning all, I'm sure there is mileage in this topic. But was climbing yesterday and witnessed someone teaching a new climber how to belay on an assisted-braking belay device. What are peoples view/advice on this? I always assumed that it was good practice to teach on a non assisted-braking belay device (ATC) with a back up belayer to start off with?
Our local climbing centre teaches kids with gri-gri's to start with, but that's mainly because it's easier for the instruction to back them up and they also don't let the kids lower.
I think it's is fine provided you teach good technique, even with a gri-gri you should never let go of the dead end of the rope (if you follow the instructions of the manufacturer). There are too many people using a gri-gri as an excuse for bad belaying rather than learning to belay safely.
That said, if I were to pick an auto-locking device to learn on I'd be more inclined to go with something like a ClickUp over a Gri-Gri as the lowering is safer and it's operated more like an ATC.
1
In reply to bpmclimb:
> This is a potentially dangerous piece of misinformation, because there's a crucial difference: with assisted braking devices it's considered acceptable to slide or jump the hand up the dead rope when taking in rope; this is not good practice with a tube device.
If you've ever belayed lead you'll know that sliding the hand is essential using a tube device literally every time you pay out slack. Hardly 'Dangerous Misinformation...' - sliding the hand is fine and is actually the recommended method of belaying by the DAV (German BMC).
Personally for taking in slack I'm always a fan of the good old 'v to the knee 123' but let's not piss about calling perfectly normal practice 'dangerous misinformation'.
2
1
In reply to springfall2008:
Grigri requires a fairly specific technique and it's also normal to leave a decent 'smile' in the rope as the device does not slip and so automatically has less slack in the system than a regular belay device.
Click up I dislike, but perhaps that's personal preference/rope choice as many rate them.
Personal favourites: Edelrid Jul 2, AustriAlpin Fish and Grigri+. In my experience these three are the simplest to use, have the most adaptability (rope range) and are least likely to 'grab' in the result of an unexpected clip. For trad I find the Reverso 4 and the DMM Pivot to be the best for the same reasons as above - the Pivot especially has an astonishingly good 'official' rating for rope size and handles like a dream with skinny dry treated ropes.
My girlfriend turned up with a Megajul yesterday, something I've avoided for years after disliking one on first use - time for a rematch! Still not convinced for trad but when it comes to alpine sport or big Verdon routes i.e. big runouts on bolts, I'm willing to be persuaded... We'll see.
It's probably worth mentioning that I work for a large online outdoor retailer and so have had the chance to test most of the modern range of belay devices to an extensive level - hence the fairly polarised opinions.
2
In reply to MischaHY:
> If you've ever belayed lead you'll know that sliding the hand is essential using a tube device literally every time you pay out slack. Hardly 'Dangerous Misinformation...' - sliding the hand is fine and is actually the recommended method of belaying by the DAV (German BMC).
> Personally for taking in slack I'm always a fan of the good old 'v to the knee 123' but let's not piss about calling perfectly normal practice 'dangerous misinformation'.
Very confused post. You seem now to be agreeing with me about good practice for TAKING IN rope with a tube device, which is the only thing I was talking about; but then taking issue with me for something I wasn't talking about at all, and never even mentioned: PAYING OUT rope to a lead climber.
You claimed that the techniques of using assisted braking and tube-type devices were "essentially the same", and that therefore the techniques could be learned on one type and simply transferred to the other. My point was that there's an important difference when it comes to taking in rope: hand sliding is considered acceptable with an assisted braking device, but not with a tube device. That difference is significant, since using the wrong technique is potentially dangerous. I wouldn't call pointing that out "pissing about", myself.
1
1
In reply to bpmclimb:
Perhaps Misha's post was a little ambiguous because they started out talking about paying out rope to a leader but I think the reference to the DAV was actually about taking in when top-rope belaying. They do indeed recommend that belayers skip the "1,2,3" hand swapping and just slide the brake hand up the rope.
youtube.com/watch?v=ddlPTvvF8q4&
It's not a method we're very familiar with in the UK and it's often actively discouraged here but the DAV have a reputation for being quite rigorous and thoughtful about safety so I'm sure there's a good argument for the sliding method.
In any case, I think referring to Misha's original post as "dangerous misinformation" was a bit over the top. No beginner is coming to a thread like this to learn how to belay.
1
1
In reply to Luke90:
> In any case, I think referring to Misha's original post as "dangerous misinformation" was a bit over the top. No beginner is coming to a thread like this to learn how to belay.
This is the Starting Out forum. Specifically aimed at beginners.
Unfortunately, it's not uncommon to see experienced climbers giving "advice" and "information" on here, forgetting which forum they're posting on. When I see opinions expressed on here that I think are wrong; or right but not the whole story - inappropriate for or potentially misleading to novices - I'll continue to highlight them.
2
1
In reply to bpmclimb:
I take it you're just going to ignore the first part of my post and the video from the DAV?
You're quite right to highlight errors but I'm not sure that Misha really made one.
In reply to mangodays:
is this a spoof thread to bulk out thr ukc content?
1
In reply to mangodays:
when learining with either a plate or self braking device, i think the extra person holding the rope as a back up is a total liability. each feels less responsible because of the others presence, and its two people, not one to monitor as instructor. i thought it was a way for coaches to keep kids looking husy so their parents thought they were getting better value for money?
In reply to Luke90:
> I take it you're just going to ignore the first part of my post and the video from the DAV?
> You're quite right to highlight errors but I'm not sure that Misha really made one.
Not ignoring it, and admittedly it does weaken my argument somewhat - but the idea of teaching complete novices/children (which I do a lot) with that technique worries me, and I don't think that's just a case of what I'm used to. I've seen too many near misses resulting from a lack of control of the dead rope. I still maintain that it's not a good idea to suggest, especially in the context of a beginners' forum, that there's no practical difference between operating assisted- and tube-type devices.
1
1
In reply to tonanf:
> when learining with either a plate or self braking device, i think the extra person holding the rope as a back up is a total liability. each feels less responsible because of the others presence, and its two people, not one to monitor as instructor. i thought it was a way for coaches to keep kids looking husy so their parents thought they were getting better value for money?
Actually, it's not any one thing - the reasons for doing it are many, depending on the group size, age, trustworthiness, attention span - and what device is being used does make a difference. Sometimes it's just a box-ticking exercise (it's usually required of instructors by their employer), but at the other extreme it's a genuine, crucial safety measure. It's also true that it can be a handy way to keep more of the group occupied.
.... when it comes to adding extra belayers, the only reason I've never had is the watching parents/value for money thing
1
In reply to bpmclimb:
> Very confused post.
Nope. I just pointed out that both techniques are safe and listed my preferred method (which happens to be the same as yours), and also pointed out that you were being a bit of a drama queen.
You're more than entitled to your opinion but don't act like someone is going to die because they tunnel the rope instead of hand-over-handing it. It's not true and a beginner (who, as you rightly state, frequent this specific area of the forum) may take it as gospel and start telling all their new-to-climbing mates about it which then spreads pointless warning messages for no reason.
Just to be clear - I appreciate in a professional capacity you may choose to teach beginners a certain way, and I respect that choice.
Post edited at 07:51
3
1
In reply to tonanf:
A responsible instructor will do the tailing rather than delegating it to another novice.
1
2
In reply to timjones:
"A responsible instructor will do the tailing rather than delegating it to another novice."
... and by impication an irresponsible instructor will allow someone else to do the tailing.
Really? This is standard practice in a lot of climbing walls.
4
In reply to MischaHY:
agreed
it would be interesting to see some numbers on how many Trad only belayers will give a dynamic catch regardless of the device used?
I’d bet that unless they are stopping falls regularly then most trad belayers will instinctively lock the device hard as soon as the leader comes off. So in most single pitch scenarios I reckon a experienced sport only belayer who catches say 100 falls a year using an autolocking device would be more likely to give a softer catch due to good relaxed body position than a trad only belayer using an ATC who only catches 2 to 3 falls a year.
Also worth noting that most autolocking devices (such as the Jul) do slip if the force applied is high enough so it should be taught that the brake line must be treated with the same respect as an ATC, at this point its no difference aside from an increased safety margin which protects against human error.
In reply to paul_the_northerner:
Aye, and my experience is indeed that people who usually belay easy trad tend (and I use the word tend because it's not everyone) to give a hard catch and sit into the rope. I'd say someone climbing sport regularly probably catches hundreds of falls per year so are much more comfortable with the concept. I know for a fact my belaying got a lot better after I started climbing more sport and catching a lot more!
In reply to MischaHY:
> You're more than entitled to your opinion but don't act like someone is going to die because they tunnel the rope instead of hand-over-handing it. It's not true and a beginner (who, as you rightly state, frequent this specific area of the forum) may take it as gospel and start telling all their new-to-climbing mates about it which then spreads pointless warning messages for no reason.
Since you state that it's not true with confidence, I assume that you think that it could never be true, under any circumstances. I genuinely don't think that's correct: I maintain that there are scenarios, types of client, where teaching the tunnel hand method is inappropriate and potentially dangerous. I can immediately think of some from my very recent instructing experiences. Therefore, from my point of view, spreading a warning message is not unreasoned or pointless (or, for that matter, "pissing about", or being "a drama queen").
Perhaps we'll just have to agree to differ.
1
In reply to Removed User:
> "A responsible instructor will do the tailing rather than delegating it to another novice."
> ... and by impication an irresponsible instructor will allow someone else to do the tailing.
> Really? This is standard practice in a lot of climbing walls.
That might be the implication that you draw from a simple common sense statement.
I'd say that it depends on how they arrived at that point.
1
In reply to timjones:
Sorry Tim, I don't understand what you are saying. Please could you elaborate?
1
In reply to Removed User:
Personally speaking I would want to have spent some time instructing a belayer and observing them whilst doing the tailing myself before I allowed one of their peers to take over the tailing.
In reply to timjones:
Thanks, that makes perfect sense.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...