UKC

for scottish winter, shit weather and alpine.
which one? and why? where are the best deals?

Rab vapour rise smock,
montane krypton smock
mountain equipment microtherm mountain jacket

i am tall, slim, long armed.
it will be used in scotland, however will also be in used as an alpine jacket-has to be available in light colours.
i like the idea of the high water repellency of the ME, but everyone seems to like the rab?

In reply to jimmyv: sorry, that was very rude, please and thanks in advance

In reply to jimmyv: i should add that this will be used in conjunction with a rab alpine latok. cheers

In reply to jimmyv: im assuming u mean u wont always be wearing the latok? bit confused as to why u need a water repellent windproof if uve got the rab on top.

I took it to mean he'll be wearing the soft shell all the time, and the latok when the shit really hits the fan, no?

If that's correct, then sounds like a good combination.

However, as you say, if you were to be wearing the latok all the time then you don't need a soft shell as a mid layer....better with a specific mid layer, because there's no need for a windproof/water resistant mid layer.

In reply to jimmyv: yup. the latok will be for when the shit hits the fan. i understand the technical uses of a soft shell. however i would like user comments. how weather resistant is the rab, whay is the ME underrated when it seems just as good as the others and is relatively waterproof. Are all three suitable for a 1 hour belay in full on winter.....and so on.
thanks, james

Dear norrie,
you use a vapour trail, is this the top to use in winter 4 climbing considering you get hot and a winter walking pile is too warm? people have criticised the hood, is it ok?
thanks, james

In reply to jimmyv: Real soft shell my asse! those 3 are good summer cold weather jackets but pish for scottish winter, see plenty of millets warriors in them and council urks, if you want soft shell ie. a soft and breathable fabric with water and wind proof qualities then its got to be shoeller or one of the sim advanced materials from cutting edge companies like Marmot / Berghaus extrem / Arcterex etc...buffalow...tee hee

In reply to BorisB:

The Rab Vapour trail et al are ideal for Scottish winter in my opinion.

Perhaps though I'm a council urk. Whatever one of those might be.

I prefer Powershield jackets now but there's nothing wrong with shelled microfleece. My Driclime served as an excellent winter shell for many years.

In reply to Dave Hunter:

I have the ME microtherm and find it excellent for climbing/walking. I only bought it in September so I can't comment on it's winter use yet but intend to use it this winter.

It's water repellency is very impressive and the hood is an excellent design that works with or without a helmet. The lining doesn't slip easily over some fleece layers so consider what uou're wearing underneath it.
You will want a belay jacket of some type or you'll freeze.

In reply to Mattress:

Any of these shelled microfleeces should be sized to fit over a thermal alone for best results.

If you're (not you in particular, but 'one') not putting on a warm jacket when you stop then you are wearing too much when you're climbing. Everyone (bar soloists ar the incredibly quick) should have a belay jacket.

In reply to Dave Hunter: dave, whats the deal with powershield? you seem to know whats what..i thought some of those extreme smocks were too hot, but a thermal mixed with something a bit lighter, like the rab and a light shell for really bad weather was adequate for winter. is this not the case? any advice would be great

In reply to jimmyv:

Powershield comes in different 'weights'. It is more expensive than shelled microfleece but neater and stretchy.

Lightweight Powershield is stuff like the Macpac Stealth Jacket, or the Arcteryx Gamma MX Hoody (for the affluent).

Heavier weight Powershield is less versatile but better for cold weather-specific use. The patagonia Mixmaster is the outstanding piece here.

But shelled microfleece is absolutely fine. As I said above I used a Marmot Driclime in winter for years. Alpine winter, Canada, Scotland it performed fine.

In reply to jimmyv: I have the arc 'teryx easyrider soft shell. I use it for almost every scenario except when it gets really "shit". cannot rate highly enough. However it comes with a fairly hefty price tag (rrp £200)!

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

I wasn't commenting on the fit, more on the slide (or lack of) between the jacket and a micro fleece base layer.

BTW, how warm is a patagucci puffball? Warm enough for a scottish belay jacket?

In reply to Mattress:

I see. Sorry. You're correct, fleece does tend to bind against fleece. Lighter thermals are the answer (more efficient too).

Pufball should be ok for Scottish winter (though to be fair I carry a Puffball Vest and a DAS Parka). Was fine with Puff Jacket (old style) and Puff Vest too.

In reply to jimmyv: thanks all, and which one out of three? and sizing for a tall 6'2, slim, long armed person, because i have to do it all mail order...thanks in advance.

In reply to jimmyv:

The Rab has long arms for its sizing but is reasonably bulky in the body. Not sure about the other two.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run: cheers, if i normally take a large to get long arms, although the body fit is normmally better with a medium, i could take a rab medium, get a reasonable fit and long arms????thanks james

In reply to jimmyv:

You should be ok. Usual caveats apply...

Basically it depends how long you're arms are and how wide your shoulders are in relation to your torso. I don't know that so I cant say for sure I'm afraid.

In reply to jimmyv:

I have proper monkey arms and find a Rab is a bit TOO long in the arm, if anything... (Which is nice!)
Muz is about 6ft2, has fairly broad shoulders and a slim waist and and long arms - he can wear a medium, but large probably fits him better, if that helps?

In reply to jimmyv: Lots of jackets covered here, can i say i bought the Berghaus guide soft shell jacket this summer, used it in the alps on cold summits with just a base layer and it was fine, will be trying it this winter with various layer/layers.
Its not the lightest 700gr i think but feel it would be ok apart from the worst weather when i would carry a hard shell to go over it.
I tried 4-5 of the top makes and this was the only jacket that "didnt" ride up at all, and it dosnt bunch up or ballon above my harness, it also has a hood, i paid £130 for it in a mid grey colour.
Might be worth a look. Lee.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

Out of interest, what did you wear under your driclime? I'm wondering about Patagonia R.5 as a base layer being more than a mid weight thermal but not full fleece. Alternatively perhaps exped weight capilene? I imagine that R1 would be too much?

I've talked about patagonia layers as they seem well divided into categories tho' other brands etc are equally acceptable.

(I'm again talking about scottish winter climbing)

In reply to Mattress:

Capilene midweight until merino came along. Then lightweight merino.

R.5 would work fine too.

In reply to jimmyv: thanks for everyone's help, i got a rab vapour rise from up and under- they are cheap and it seems very very good.
thanks, james

In reply to jimmyv:

Dear james

Sorry I missed this thread, anyway, I use a Rab Vapour Rise and it is great. You should get the trousers to match.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:
dear norrie,
what would use them for? would they work as a walk in trouser for winter, then with a shell on over for the climbing, or is this defeating the purpose?
thanks, james

In reply to jimmyv:


Dear james

I use them for covering my legs in winter to keep the wind and cold out. I do not use a waterproof shell for winter climbing, I don't climb in the rain.

Norrie

In reply to jimmyv: HI, I cant comment on the other two as I dont own either but the Rab is a very good fit in the arms for me- I often have problems with arms being way too short. The body's quite short, but that's never bothered me as it stays put under my harness. Finishing quality's not all that, but it hasn't fallen apart yet!!

In reply to Norrie Muir:
dear norrie,
is that not a wee bit chilly when it gets a bit windy and snowy? and what of sitting in the snow and getting all soggy and then frozen?
regards, james

In reply to jimmyv:

Nope

and what of sitting in the snow and getting all soggy and then frozen


It's fine. Although as Norrie astutely pointed out elsewhere, sitting in the snow (regardless of clothing) will tend to give you piles, or so I understand.

In reply to Dave Hunter:
A fallacy, actually, straining at stool a much more likely culprit
Dr M

In reply to jimmyv:

Dear james

You must be right, you have all the answers. What should I wear, so that I get chilly and wet?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:
dear norrie,
sorry, i didn't realise you were the sensitive type, i was simply tring to mirror your normal humorous tone. i really meant: is it not a wee bit chilly when it gets windy and snowy and what of sitting in the snow, causing sogginess that will maybe freeze? if this is the case, then it is not worth the while buying them perhaps?????
i do not joke, i am a very serious person, my questions are always sincere in my quest for the truth....
thanks in advance, james

In reply to jimmyv:

Paramo
then you don't need a separate shell for when the sleety rain starts in earnest.

The climbing trousers and salloppettes have foam inserts for bum and knees, so it is a lot cosier at belays.

Why do you not stock their kit at Rock+Run, Mr Hunter?

In reply to almost sane:

We can't stock everything.

And it tends to be heavy (especially their 'climbing' jackets). And too warm (hence loads of venting zippers). And not that well cut for climbing.

I know it has a very loyal following and its very suitable for walking in the rain in cooler temps but imnsho there's far better climbing kit out there.

I've never had to use foam inserts with any soft shell stuff. I'm sure Paramo only provide them because of this ridiculous obsession folk have with it not being waterproof under pressure.

If I must sit on something, I tend to find the rucksack on my back makes a more insulated seat than anything else. Do you really use the foam inserts in the knees? If so, I can only stand in awe.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Is the Vapour Rise too warm for all year use? Good venting but seems too snug and warm for use as a cragging top when you simply want a light fleece and wind/showerproof?

In reply to Anonymous:

But the Vapour Trail is a light fleece/shell combo.

Like all tops of its sort, really versatile and excellent year round wear.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:


I know, which is why I was/am interested in it, particularly as it fits me well. However, when I tried it on, it seemed almost as warm as a buffalo - which I find wayyyyy to warm for any "summer" ie. a few degrees above zero, use. I think it feels so warm because it is a smock and you cant vent it quite as well as a jacket (simply unzip all the way!) and perhaps because it is such a good close fit.

In reply to Anonymous:

Not as warm as a Buffalo in my experience.

Close fit does tend to make stuff warmer though so that might be it.

In reply to jimmyv: does anyone know if the vapour rise pants are usable w/o a shell in winter , for climbing, even if it is harsh weather. i have been recommended to whack a shell on over a vapour rise top; is it not necessary for the pants? many thanks, james

Norrie, scuse me if I seem ignorant, but how on earth do you manage to climb in Scotland in winter and 'not climb in the rain'?

I also thought that part of the point was to experience puddles in the pits once in a while?

In reply to jo cardwell:

It's quite simple. Norrie, the omnipotent being that he is, simply tells the clouds to go elsewhere.