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Please can someone explain to me why the krabs at either end of a quickdraw should face in opposite directions? I’m sure there is perfectly valid theory to this, as the manufacturers all set them up that way, but I can’t see what it is.
It does seem to me that there are circumstances where this may not be desirable. If whatever you’re clipping orientates the krab perpendicular to the rock face then presumably you want the back and not the gate closest to the rock, and that would also be true for the other krab too, i.e. both ‘facing’ out.
I’m sure I’m missing something obvious here.
It does seem to me that there are circumstances where this may not be desirable. If whatever you’re clipping orientates the krab perpendicular to the rock face then presumably you want the back and not the gate closest to the rock, and that would also be true for the other krab too, i.e. both ‘facing’ out.
I’m sure I’m missing something obvious here.
In reply to NickAL:
Personal preference. I like opposing crabs because, if you're clipping into the gear and the rope with the same hand, it's easier.
(Alternative answer: Should we oppose krabs? Yes! Down with krabs!)
Personal preference. I like opposing crabs because, if you're clipping into the gear and the rope with the same hand, it's easier.
(Alternative answer: Should we oppose krabs? Yes! Down with krabs!)
In reply to NickAL: Personally its cos you then use exactly the same move to clip the rope as to clip the gear. But thats just a personal thing, like racking with all the gates facing out...
In reply to NickAL:
I swap mine around on the rock, if the gates look like they might get pushed open by an edge. As a result, my qds are a micture of both, and I end up with pot luck...
I swap mine around on the rock, if the gates look like they might get pushed open by an edge. As a result, my qds are a micture of both, and I end up with pot luck...
In reply to NickAL:
There is definitely a reason (though it's along the lines of 'in the incredibly unlikely event that... then you'll be safer') for NOT opposing the krabs.
I'll be damned if I can remember what it is though...
Victim of Mathematics
There is definitely a reason (though it's along the lines of 'in the incredibly unlikely event that... then you'll be safer') for NOT opposing the krabs.
I'll be damned if I can remember what it is though...
Victim of Mathematics
In reply to NickAL:
It was funny that as i was reading this there was an add at the top that had a quick draw where the snap gates where facing the same way
I then looked and rock and run and it seems to be a mix
http://www.rockrun.com/shop/type.html?d=2&t=11&sid=26669037917749a3...
It was funny that as i was reading this there was an add at the top that had a quick draw where the snap gates where facing the same way
I then looked and rock and run and it seems to be a mix
http://www.rockrun.com/shop/type.html?d=2&t=11&sid=26669037917749a3...
In reply to NickAL: I believe the current accepted safest practice is to have the gates facing the same way, ie not oppossed.
In reply to NickAL: There is no hard-and-fast rule, as others have said it comes down to personal preference in the way you handle QDs except and until in actual use you find that there is a risk of the gate being compromised eg by coming in to contact with a rock feature. At that point it is time to pause and think about other options eg:
- reversing the orientation of the krab concerned (or even the whole QD)
- using a longer or shorter QD to avoid the troublesome protrusion
- if the compromised krab is the one clipped in to the gear, maybe repositioning the gear.
I have my QDs with the krabs both facing the same way. FWIW, I rack them on my gear loops with the gate on the outside. (Someone will now tell me that I am going to die by doing things this way.)
- reversing the orientation of the krab concerned (or even the whole QD)
- using a longer or shorter QD to avoid the troublesome protrusion
- if the compromised krab is the one clipped in to the gear, maybe repositioning the gear.
I have my QDs with the krabs both facing the same way. FWIW, I rack them on my gear loops with the gate on the outside. (Someone will now tell me that I am going to die by doing things this way.)
In reply to NickAL: Personally, I rack BOTH types, the orientation I want depends on the placement, after all. The krab in the gear should have the gate facing OUT from the rock, ditto the rope end.
Sometimes this will mean opposing gates, sometimes matching...
You of course will want the rope end to have the rope running up the BACK of the krab, and not over the gate, of course, as well... i.e. BACK of the krab facing the direction you are moving.
All of this is aimed at stopping any accidental opening of the krab gates in a fall.
So the answer is YES, to ALL the questions.
8^)
Sometimes this will mean opposing gates, sometimes matching...
You of course will want the rope end to have the rope running up the BACK of the krab, and not over the gate, of course, as well... i.e. BACK of the krab facing the direction you are moving.
All of this is aimed at stopping any accidental opening of the krab gates in a fall.
So the answer is YES, to ALL the questions.
8^)
In reply to Tom_Ball: Hmm, interesting. Taking that and the other responses into account it makes me wonder if it was all in my head. Maybe there is no one championing an 'approved' way of setting up a quickdraw.
In reply to victim of mathematics: My guess would be to keep the force running in one line through the assy, thus having the spines aligned theoretically puts less torque into the system.
I agree with the 'extremely unlikely' bit though, as krabs are stronger then placed gear after all. What's fail rating on an average bolt?
TTG
I agree with the 'extremely unlikely' bit though, as krabs are stronger then placed gear after all. What's fail rating on an average bolt?
TTG
In reply to NickAL:
As Richard says, the reason to oppose is that you use the same action for clipping the Krab as for clipping the rope. This is particularly important on very hard sport routes when climbing onsight where speed and minimal movement is vital to success.
When trad climbing at a lowly level, the advantage will be minimal.
Personally I rack them opposed, but if the rock dictates that I turn a Krab around, then I do so. This leaves my 'draws racked for a quick (fumble) clip, but allows me the freedom to move them if necessary.
It won't matter either way if you are prepared to move them around where necessary. Just be aware of the rock around the Krab and how a fall will cause the 'draw to move. This is equally important as ensuring your sling isn't twisted and that you are not clipping the rope so that a fall would cause the rope to force against the gate, rather than the correct orientation of the Krab.
Happy and safe clipping!
Phil.
As Richard says, the reason to oppose is that you use the same action for clipping the Krab as for clipping the rope. This is particularly important on very hard sport routes when climbing onsight where speed and minimal movement is vital to success.
When trad climbing at a lowly level, the advantage will be minimal.
Personally I rack them opposed, but if the rock dictates that I turn a Krab around, then I do so. This leaves my 'draws racked for a quick (fumble) clip, but allows me the freedom to move them if necessary.
It won't matter either way if you are prepared to move them around where necessary. Just be aware of the rock around the Krab and how a fall will cause the 'draw to move. This is equally important as ensuring your sling isn't twisted and that you are not clipping the rope so that a fall would cause the rope to force against the gate, rather than the correct orientation of the Krab.
Happy and safe clipping!
Phil.
In reply to NickAL:
The opposing krab thing is mainy associated with sport climbing and it's to do with where the load goes on the krab when you fall off. Think about a traditional bolt hanger with a vertical hanger plate. You clip the bolt with the gate on the bolt-krab facing away from the rock and move rightwards above the bolt. You fall off from above the bolt and everything gets pulled into line. The rope will land and load the rope-krab along the back bar. If the rope-krab had been the other way around the rope will tend to load the rope-krab along the gate rather than the back-bar. If you play with a QD you might see what I mean.
To be honest, a krab won't break cos of the load being in the wrong place like this. You're talking v. small fall factors anyway. More of a concern is that the gates don't get prised open by the rock. So, for trad routes which tend to be less steep I rack the krabs facing the same way.
The opposing krab thing is mainy associated with sport climbing and it's to do with where the load goes on the krab when you fall off. Think about a traditional bolt hanger with a vertical hanger plate. You clip the bolt with the gate on the bolt-krab facing away from the rock and move rightwards above the bolt. You fall off from above the bolt and everything gets pulled into line. The rope will land and load the rope-krab along the back bar. If the rope-krab had been the other way around the rope will tend to load the rope-krab along the gate rather than the back-bar. If you play with a QD you might see what I mean.
To be honest, a krab won't break cos of the load being in the wrong place like this. You're talking v. small fall factors anyway. More of a concern is that the gates don't get prised open by the rock. So, for trad routes which tend to be less steep I rack the krabs facing the same way.
In reply to NickAL:
I thought the same as you, and I have got used to it that way. so its just habit now.
What I do find interesting is on some quick draws the bend gate will be tight on the quick draw and the bent gate lose (or the other way round) now I under stand that have a lose and next to the nut would mean less nut move meant, but I have experimented and having a lose bent gate means the whole quick draw moves less, can any one explain which one is best and is it significantly different.
I thought the same as you, and I have got used to it that way. so its just habit now.
What I do find interesting is on some quick draws the bend gate will be tight on the quick draw and the bent gate lose (or the other way round) now I under stand that have a lose and next to the nut would mean less nut move meant, but I have experimented and having a lose bent gate means the whole quick draw moves less, can any one explain which one is best and is it significantly different.
In reply to Jules:
Oooh, that's made me think.
When sport climbing, if you are moving left/right above a bolt (rather than straight up) then you should clip the krab to the rope with the back of the gate to the direction you are moving. This reduces the (admittedly very small) chance that the rope will unclip itself from the krab.
This being the case you should probably have the bolt-krab facing the same way, as otherwse when the system is pulled tight there is a higher chance that this will be loaded across the gate rather than the back of the krab.
On the other hand I might have made that up.
For the record I was told this by some very, very good sport climbers, so it isn't that the uber-hardcore oppose the gates.
The above applies to sport routes, it seems even less (though still marginally) relevant to trad routes.
Oooh, that's made me think.
When sport climbing, if you are moving left/right above a bolt (rather than straight up) then you should clip the krab to the rope with the back of the gate to the direction you are moving. This reduces the (admittedly very small) chance that the rope will unclip itself from the krab.
This being the case you should probably have the bolt-krab facing the same way, as otherwse when the system is pulled tight there is a higher chance that this will be loaded across the gate rather than the back of the krab.
On the other hand I might have made that up.
For the record I was told this by some very, very good sport climbers, so it isn't that the uber-hardcore oppose the gates.
The above applies to sport routes, it seems even less (though still marginally) relevant to trad routes.
In reply to Tom_Ball: You should have a variety of lengths anyway.
I believe the idea is the gear end straight gate is firm, the rope end loose, as that can flop around, and NOT lift the gear out. But I'm a trad boy, not a bolt clipper!
I believe the idea is the gear end straight gate is firm, the rope end loose, as that can flop around, and NOT lift the gear out. But I'm a trad boy, not a bolt clipper!
In reply to Tom_Ball:
You use a captive eyed sling for your bent gate to stop 'fumble' clips as the krab is less likely to move around when you try and clip it (especially on steep ground where the 'draw hangs in space).
To stop rope drag and to stop wires from popping about and friends from walking (in or out!) you would want more flexibility in the system, so open slings would be better.
I use a mixture and my long draws do not have captive eyes.
Phil.
You use a captive eyed sling for your bent gate to stop 'fumble' clips as the krab is less likely to move around when you try and clip it (especially on steep ground where the 'draw hangs in space).
To stop rope drag and to stop wires from popping about and friends from walking (in or out!) you would want more flexibility in the system, so open slings would be better.
I use a mixture and my long draws do not have captive eyes.
Phil.
In reply to Tom_Ball:
Ah ha! I think I actually know this.
Quickdraws often have one krab tightly attached to the sling so it cannot rotate and one more loosely attached. The tight krab is for the rope and the loose krab for the gear. This is as the weight of the quickdraw itself will/should mitigate against the gear krab rotating and loading across the gate. However this isn't true for the rope krab, so it needs a little extra assistance to prevent it from rotating.
Again the difference this makes in very marginal, but I suppose every little helps.
More important is just to ensure that you always clip the same krab to the rope (my quickdraws are handily different colours to make this easy for a muppet like me). As if you fall on a bolt this may cause notches to appear in the krab attached to the bolt. Clip this krab to the rope another time and the rope will rub against the notch and this wil do it no good at all.
Damn I am so cool.
Ah ha! I think I actually know this.
Quickdraws often have one krab tightly attached to the sling so it cannot rotate and one more loosely attached. The tight krab is for the rope and the loose krab for the gear. This is as the weight of the quickdraw itself will/should mitigate against the gear krab rotating and loading across the gate. However this isn't true for the rope krab, so it needs a little extra assistance to prevent it from rotating.
Again the difference this makes in very marginal, but I suppose every little helps.
More important is just to ensure that you always clip the same krab to the rope (my quickdraws are handily different colours to make this easy for a muppet like me). As if you fall on a bolt this may cause notches to appear in the krab attached to the bolt. Clip this krab to the rope another time and the rope will rub against the notch and this wil do it no good at all.
Damn I am so cool.
In reply to victim of mathematics:
So to clairify the tight end is for the best gate / the rope end to aid cliping and to reduce rotation.
Thanks
So to clairify the tight end is for the best gate / the rope end to aid cliping and to reduce rotation.
Thanks
In reply to Tom_Ball: I think you have understood Mr Victim correctly. That's the way I have my QDs set up.
In reply to NickAL: Should we oppose Krabs? Yes, they're an outrage. And anyway I much prefer lobsters
In reply to dan bailey:
I don't like using lobsters I find they have a poor weight to strength ratio.
he he
I don't like using lobsters I find they have a poor weight to strength ratio.
he he
In reply to Tom_Ball:
From a pun perspective 'Lobster' might be a fairly snappy* name for a bit of gear. (Any gear inventors reading this - I'll settle for 10% thanks).
* and again.
From a pun perspective 'Lobster' might be a fairly snappy* name for a bit of gear. (Any gear inventors reading this - I'll settle for 10% thanks).
* and again.
In reply to Jules:
I don't think this is right at all. If everything has been "pulled into line" then surely the krab will be correctly loaded regardless of which way round it's been clipped - unless something else impedes the free movement of the rope and krab? D-shaped krabs (which is what most QD krabs are) are specifically designed so that the loads are exerted as close as possible to the back bar. Unless something external is stopping the elements from taking up the positions they 'want' to be in as the load of a fall comes on to the system then the krab is going to be correctly loaded, regardless of which side the gate is on.
It seems that Mr Victim has followed the same line of reasoning to conclude that the krabs should face the same way. If two people can end up reaching the exact opposite conclusions starting from the same premises then there must be something wrong somewhere!
> ...You fall off from above the bolt and everything gets pulled into line. The rope will land and load the rope-krab along the back bar. If the rope-krab had been the other way around the rope will tend to load the rope-krab along the gate rather than the back-bar.
I don't think this is right at all. If everything has been "pulled into line" then surely the krab will be correctly loaded regardless of which way round it's been clipped - unless something else impedes the free movement of the rope and krab? D-shaped krabs (which is what most QD krabs are) are specifically designed so that the loads are exerted as close as possible to the back bar. Unless something external is stopping the elements from taking up the positions they 'want' to be in as the load of a fall comes on to the system then the krab is going to be correctly loaded, regardless of which side the gate is on.
It seems that Mr Victim has followed the same line of reasoning to conclude that the krabs should face the same way. If two people can end up reaching the exact opposite conclusions starting from the same premises then there must be something wrong somewhere!
In reply to Martin W:
I agree cross load would not be a direct out come from facing the crabs in the opossit direction
I agree cross load would not be a direct out come from facing the crabs in the opossit direction
In reply to NickAL: If you think of the directional pull on a fall. The krab attached to the pro need to face down over to hit the back of the krab on inpact. The opposite krab will take the strain of the rope so need to be facing up for the downforce to hit the back of the krab. I know it makes sence when explained like this but I do understand where your comming from when your on the face. Have some set up each way is best.
In reply to NickAL:
You should carry quickdraws with both orientations. The main consideration is to minimise the possibility of "back-clipping" the rope which can cause the krab gate to be opened by the rope as it is twisted and dragged across the outer surface of the gate. A brief play around with a couple of krabs and a loop of rope will soon reveal just how easily this can occur. The risk is even greater with bentgate krabs, of course.
A quick search brings up this illustration of the phenomenon :
http://www.altrec.com/published/climb/skills/backclipwhat/
which is pretty good.
It's fairly straightforward to get the orientation of the krab correct at the gear end of the quickdraw, but the krab at the rope end needs a little more thought. Sometimes the rope needs to be twisted when you clip, so that it only runs correctly once you have moved past the gear.
Once you've grasped the basic mechanism and risk of backclipping, the correct orientation of your krabs soon becomes obvious, with a bit of experience.
The rope will usually run more smoothly, and with less drag, as well.
You should carry quickdraws with both orientations. The main consideration is to minimise the possibility of "back-clipping" the rope which can cause the krab gate to be opened by the rope as it is twisted and dragged across the outer surface of the gate. A brief play around with a couple of krabs and a loop of rope will soon reveal just how easily this can occur. The risk is even greater with bentgate krabs, of course.
A quick search brings up this illustration of the phenomenon :
http://www.altrec.com/published/climb/skills/backclipwhat/
which is pretty good.
It's fairly straightforward to get the orientation of the krab correct at the gear end of the quickdraw, but the krab at the rope end needs a little more thought. Sometimes the rope needs to be twisted when you clip, so that it only runs correctly once you have moved past the gear.
Once you've grasped the basic mechanism and risk of backclipping, the correct orientation of your krabs soon becomes obvious, with a bit of experience.
The rope will usually run more smoothly, and with less drag, as well.
In reply to NickAL: Yes! Fight the power! Goddamn 8 legged
sons o' bitches
sons o' bitches
In reply to NickAL:
Two answers, it does not matter, it does matter.
What that means is that generally it does not matter which way they face but on certain routes you need to make sure they are facing the right way.
This thread is one of the better ones on the subject with some thought given to the reasons so read it all and work out when you should have them facing the same way and when opposite.
What it boils down to is thinking about every bit of protection you use and apply the WHAT IF? situation to it. Same with QDS and slings, would a short one or long one be best, short often good for sport routes but rubbish for long trad routes.
Place runner thinking where you are going then place sling or QD to suit.
Two answers, it does not matter, it does matter.
What that means is that generally it does not matter which way they face but on certain routes you need to make sure they are facing the right way.
This thread is one of the better ones on the subject with some thought given to the reasons so read it all and work out when you should have them facing the same way and when opposite.
What it boils down to is thinking about every bit of protection you use and apply the WHAT IF? situation to it. Same with QDS and slings, would a short one or long one be best, short often good for sport routes but rubbish for long trad routes.
Place runner thinking where you are going then place sling or QD to suit.
In reply to Cosmic John:
Back-clipping is more to do with the direction the rope runs through the krab than it is about how the rope krab is oriented vs the gear krab. Avoiding self-unclipping is one factor which might influence your choice of which way round the rope krab should be, but if you avoid back-clipping the rope in the first place then it drops down the priority list compared to some of the other considerations which have been discussed in this thread. But you're right that it's generally a good idea to avoid having the rope run across the gate.
> The main consideration is to minimise the possibility of "back-clipping" the rope which can cause the krab gate to be opened by the rope as it is twisted and dragged across the outer surface of the gate.
Back-clipping is more to do with the direction the rope runs through the krab than it is about how the rope krab is oriented vs the gear krab. Avoiding self-unclipping is one factor which might influence your choice of which way round the rope krab should be, but if you avoid back-clipping the rope in the first place then it drops down the priority list compared to some of the other considerations which have been discussed in this thread. But you're right that it's generally a good idea to avoid having the rope run across the gate.
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