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Is Windstopper Soft Shell a real soft shell when it comes to breathability? As far as I know, WS is not but is the WS soft shell just a new name for the old fabric or really a new product? At shop the material didn´t feel like real breathable, still better than 3L GTX. How does it compare to for example Schoellers Dry Skin?
I Could get Warmpeace Altamira Jacket WS Soft Shell for a good discount, any opinions about it?
http://www.warmpeace.com/en/index.php?kat=96&sec=2
I Could get Warmpeace Altamira Jacket WS Soft Shell for a good discount, any opinions about it?
http://www.warmpeace.com/en/index.php?kat=96&sec=2
In reply to Smo: They've revamped the fabric (i think) but, it's still a membrane where as most other softshell fabrics are just special weaves with a treatment.
Bottom line is amembrane fabric will generally be less breathable, which is the whole point of soft shell. I'd go for either schoeller or powershield for soft shells, rather than windstopper.
a
Bottom line is amembrane fabric will generally be less breathable, which is the whole point of soft shell. I'd go for either schoeller or powershield for soft shells, rather than windstopper.
a
In reply to Smo: I believe the technical answer to this is: h**l, no!!
WS is definitely not true softshell, due to insufficient breathability. There isn't much real advantage in Gore softshell over a conventional hardshell-fleece system.
Having said that, it's worthwhile kit for some applications: WS has better water-resistance than true softshell, for instance.
As is said elsewhere, if you want true softshell, avoid anything with a membrane.
WS is definitely not true softshell, due to insufficient breathability. There isn't much real advantage in Gore softshell over a conventional hardshell-fleece system.
Having said that, it's worthwhile kit for some applications: WS has better water-resistance than true softshell, for instance.
As is said elsewhere, if you want true softshell, avoid anything with a membrane.
In reply to Smo:
Do not get windstopper for UK. It doesn't work. I have a windstopper jacket, I sweat going uphill and when things level out or I have to stop (to belay, etc.) I quickly chill. It is windproof and water resistant, but when it gets wet is heavy and cold.
I now use a light fleece and a Montane pertex windshirt. I bought the windshirt for running but am now using it instead of the windstopper jacket. When I can afford it I will get a Rab VR Trail smock with a hood or the Montane equivalent. The one thing my current windshirt arrangement lcks is a hood.
Do not get windstopper for UK. It doesn't work. I have a windstopper jacket, I sweat going uphill and when things level out or I have to stop (to belay, etc.) I quickly chill. It is windproof and water resistant, but when it gets wet is heavy and cold.
I now use a light fleece and a Montane pertex windshirt. I bought the windshirt for running but am now using it instead of the windstopper jacket. When I can afford it I will get a Rab VR Trail smock with a hood or the Montane equivalent. The one thing my current windshirt arrangement lcks is a hood.
In reply to Smo:
I've got a ME G2 jacket made out of Windstopper softshell. It's noticably more breathable than old style windstopper fleece, but its still not truly breathable. The venting options on it combat this for the uk, and its fine for about 80% of the year, just being too cold for low activity days the depths of winter (though fine for walkins in scotland)
The breathability (or lack) doesn't come into play in the alps as the air is dryer, and I've never felt uncomfortably sticky in it, even storming up steep slopes.
Hope this helps.
I've got a ME G2 jacket made out of Windstopper softshell. It's noticably more breathable than old style windstopper fleece, but its still not truly breathable. The venting options on it combat this for the uk, and its fine for about 80% of the year, just being too cold for low activity days the depths of winter (though fine for walkins in scotland)
The breathability (or lack) doesn't come into play in the alps as the air is dryer, and I've never felt uncomfortably sticky in it, even storming up steep slopes.
Hope this helps.
In reply to Smo: For god sake don't start asking questions about membranes as all very complicated and boring!
As for WS Softshell from using most fabrics i would say as a general rule they go like this;
WS Softshell = very warm, almost completely waterproof, completely windproof, heavy, not very breathable. (i.e. about same as a lightweight event jacket with a 200weight fleece on underneath)
Shoeller WB400 Softshell = not as warm, not as waterproof, fully windproof, not as heavy, slightly more breathable and feels far nicer (IMHO).
Powershield = colder than above, not as waterproof as above, still windproof and far lighter than both of above.
(standard) pertex = cold, as waterproof as a paper bag (once DWR wares off), windproof (ish), very breathable and far lighter.
i tend to run in pertex, walk in event/standard windstopper/powershield, climb in event or ws softshell and wear the shoeller to the pub (its far too nice to ruin )
im a hot person so if your cold you might find this changes!
As for WS Softshell from using most fabrics i would say as a general rule they go like this;
WS Softshell = very warm, almost completely waterproof, completely windproof, heavy, not very breathable. (i.e. about same as a lightweight event jacket with a 200weight fleece on underneath)
Shoeller WB400 Softshell = not as warm, not as waterproof, fully windproof, not as heavy, slightly more breathable and feels far nicer (IMHO).
Powershield = colder than above, not as waterproof as above, still windproof and far lighter than both of above.
(standard) pertex = cold, as waterproof as a paper bag (once DWR wares off), windproof (ish), very breathable and far lighter.
i tend to run in pertex, walk in event/standard windstopper/powershield, climb in event or ws softshell and wear the shoeller to the pub (its far too nice to ruin )
im a hot person so if your cold you might find this changes!
In reply to sandywilson:
no i dont but my gran does! keeps her busy
back on the WS thread forgot to say ws softshell (eiger) is the most beer proof of all the fabrics!
> (In reply to epik)
>
> Just looked at your website. Do you knit the beanies yourself?
>
> Just looked at your website. Do you knit the beanies yourself?
no i dont but my gran does! keeps her busy
back on the WS thread forgot to say ws softshell (eiger) is the most beer proof of all the fabrics!
In reply to epik: WB400 isn't 100% windproof, neither is Powershield. Both offer a high degree of wind resistance.
In reply to Smo: Not impressed with the Windstopper jacket (Mountain Hardwear). It doesn't seem to retain body heat as well as a Buffalo.
Schoeller (ME) fabric is cold on the skin, but works well at stopping wind from penetrating. It is quieter than pertex.
Prefer Buffalo overall as it is designed to be worn next to the skin and is more resilient than ME softshell (I've bunged my Buffalo in the washing machine with biological detergents for over 20 years without ill effect).
Schoeller (ME) fabric is cold on the skin, but works well at stopping wind from penetrating. It is quieter than pertex.
Prefer Buffalo overall as it is designed to be worn next to the skin and is more resilient than ME softshell (I've bunged my Buffalo in the washing machine with biological detergents for over 20 years without ill effect).
In reply to Anonymous:
there is always one isn't there
yeah yeah technically no fabric is waterpoof and no fabric is windproof as everything leaks/lets wind through when put under enough pressure and the term windproof is a level of wind resistance that BS choose is good enough to be called proof but lets not get too anal
i was giving a basic view on the fabrics based on use not tech details gained in a lab and in use they are as mentioned above to give the OP a general idea of their order of performance!
p.s. proof is quicker to type than resistant!
> (In reply to epik) WB400 isn't 100% windproof, neither is Powershield. Both offer a high degree of wind resistance.
there is always one isn't there
yeah yeah technically no fabric is waterpoof and no fabric is windproof as everything leaks/lets wind through when put under enough pressure and the term windproof is a level of wind resistance that BS choose is good enough to be called proof but lets not get too anal
i was giving a basic view on the fabrics based on use not tech details gained in a lab and in use they are as mentioned above to give the OP a general idea of their order of performance!
p.s. proof is quicker to type than resistant!
In reply to Dave Stelmach: Also worth noting there are various versions of gore softshell!
think they call N2S and Eiger softshell and i find N2S coldish but eiger much warmer but as you say a buffalo (proper buffalo not the pertex windshirts with no lining) are far warmer! though mine does let wind through in conditions the other 3 wouldnt!
I've had the buffalo 10years and never washed it so sure it would help keeping it nice but then i never wash my softshells either and gore seems pretty hard to destroy!
think they call N2S and Eiger softshell and i find N2S coldish but eiger much warmer but as you say a buffalo (proper buffalo not the pertex windshirts with no lining) are far warmer! though mine does let wind through in conditions the other 3 wouldnt!
I've had the buffalo 10years and never washed it so sure it would help keeping it nice but then i never wash my softshells either and gore seems pretty hard to destroy!
In reply to Smo: I have a ME G2 and I've never had a problem with breathability. The G2 coupled with a paclite shell has never let me down in any situations. I love the fact that the G2 can be worn in small downpours without the need for a shell jacket. Although I do agree that it does get heavy if continually subjected to rain. I actually wash mine with the same proofing stuff as my shell jacket.
In reply to Smo:
Helo Smo,
Go for schoeller and/or Pertex (Buffalo and Rab VR). Got the Buffalo Super6, Teclite & Windshirt, Rab VR top, - All Pertex and the MHW Velocity jacket, Vaude and Mammut trousers - all schoeller, and their breathability is fantastic. As for schoeller trousers it is a personal thing if you find them too warm or too breathable. Any combination of the above usually keeps me dry and warm wherever I am - scottish winter, Alps, scottish summer (usually v. wet). Only use a shell in extreme circumstances. Membraned fleeces I have found don't work very well at all - membrane causes condensation.
Cheers
PeterM
Helo Smo,
Go for schoeller and/or Pertex (Buffalo and Rab VR). Got the Buffalo Super6, Teclite & Windshirt, Rab VR top, - All Pertex and the MHW Velocity jacket, Vaude and Mammut trousers - all schoeller, and their breathability is fantastic. As for schoeller trousers it is a personal thing if you find them too warm or too breathable. Any combination of the above usually keeps me dry and warm wherever I am - scottish winter, Alps, scottish summer (usually v. wet). Only use a shell in extreme circumstances. Membraned fleeces I have found don't work very well at all - membrane causes condensation.
Cheers
PeterM
In reply to Smo:
I've got an arc'teryx gamma mx jacket (powershield) and its awesome, really breathable, not 100% windproof but i think that helps it breath, movement is fantastic, very well made n thought out. Patagonia softshells are awesome too
I've got an arc'teryx gamma mx jacket (powershield) and its awesome, really breathable, not 100% windproof but i think that helps it breath, movement is fantastic, very well made n thought out. Patagonia softshells are awesome too
In reply to hindu:
I think there's some confusion here. Powershield is generally believed to be more breathable than Windstopper (ie more breahable than a tesco carrier bag) but it still has a membrane so won't be nearly as breathable as most stretch woven fabrics.
Iain
>
> Bottom line is amembrane fabric will generally be less breathable, which is the whole point of soft shell. I'd go for either schoeller or powershield for soft shells, rather than windstopper.
> Bottom line is amembrane fabric will generally be less breathable, which is the whole point of soft shell. I'd go for either schoeller or powershield for soft shells, rather than windstopper.
I think there's some confusion here. Powershield is generally believed to be more breathable than Windstopper (ie more breahable than a tesco carrier bag) but it still has a membrane so won't be nearly as breathable as most stretch woven fabrics.
Iain
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
The membrane used in powershield actually has tiny holes punched in all over it ti help it breath. I've used for some pretty aerobic activity and found it breathes just as well as an un-lined fleece. Marmot ATV jacket is also excellent as it uses the schoeller fabric, very breathable and stretchy tho not as windproof, good for rock climbing in the cold or in Alps. They've also brought out a very hardcore softshell called the Genesis which is virtually waterproof and very tough, good for scottish winter stuff.
The membrane used in powershield actually has tiny holes punched in all over it ti help it breath. I've used for some pretty aerobic activity and found it breathes just as well as an un-lined fleece. Marmot ATV jacket is also excellent as it uses the schoeller fabric, very breathable and stretchy tho not as windproof, good for rock climbing in the cold or in Alps. They've also brought out a very hardcore softshell called the Genesis which is virtually waterproof and very tough, good for scottish winter stuff.
In reply to epik:
But easily remedied by a Nikwax wash-in treatment. You forgot 'cheaper', too...
> pertex = cold, as waterproof as a paper bag (once DWR wares off)
But easily remedied by a Nikwax wash-in treatment. You forgot 'cheaper', too...
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
This is a debatable point, and Malden aren't clear on it, either. The nearest I've come to an explanation is that the 'perforated membrane' that is mentioned in the descriptions of the 'Windbloc ACT' membrane used in PowerShield is that it is in fact the layer of glue that bonds the face fabric to the inner fleece. As such, this 'membrane' has many holes, and allows a significant amount of air to pass.
To demonstrate this, you can perform the 'Paranoia blow test' by bringing the fabric to your lips and trying to blow through it. Windstopper resists all attempts to pass air. PowerShield allows some air to pass. IBQ Thermaskin, used by Montane for Dyno softshell, allows a lot of air to pass. My recollection is that WB400 is practically impermeable.
You do get accused of kissing jackets, though...
> Powershield [...] still has a membrane
This is a debatable point, and Malden aren't clear on it, either. The nearest I've come to an explanation is that the 'perforated membrane' that is mentioned in the descriptions of the 'Windbloc ACT' membrane used in PowerShield is that it is in fact the layer of glue that bonds the face fabric to the inner fleece. As such, this 'membrane' has many holes, and allows a significant amount of air to pass.
To demonstrate this, you can perform the 'Paranoia blow test' by bringing the fabric to your lips and trying to blow through it. Windstopper resists all attempts to pass air. PowerShield allows some air to pass. IBQ Thermaskin, used by Montane for Dyno softshell, allows a lot of air to pass. My recollection is that WB400 is practically impermeable.
You do get accused of kissing jackets, though...
In reply to captain paranoia:
that would imply i wash my jackets i tend to abuse my kit and never look after it. i work on never washing, drying, storing properly kit as i see it as if im gonna spend £400 on a tent or £100 on a jacket it should be good enough to take a beating and not need loads of tender care!
though as you say pertex is cheaper so replacements are cheaper when i inevitably destroy it!
> But easily remedied by a Nikwax wash-in treatment. You forgot 'cheaper', too...
that would imply i wash my jackets i tend to abuse my kit and never look after it. i work on never washing, drying, storing properly kit as i see it as if im gonna spend £400 on a tent or £100 on a jacket it should be good enough to take a beating and not need loads of tender care!
though as you say pertex is cheaper so replacements are cheaper when i inevitably destroy it!
In reply to epik:
Hmmm... I take the view that if I've spent a lot of cash on something, I feel it's worth looking after. And a good soap wash can improve the performance of a manky old jacket. It's not _that_ hard...
Hmmm... I take the view that if I've spent a lot of cash on something, I feel it's worth looking after. And a good soap wash can improve the performance of a manky old jacket. It's not _that_ hard...
In reply to captain paranoia:
are you the type of person who would buy a ferrari and then spend your time polishing it and eventually take it for a leisurely drive in the country?
i'm the type of person that would end up with it covered in mud and scratched from bombing about in country roads! whats the point in spending all that money unless your gonna use it to its limits and i hate cleaning kit!
took one of my TNF tents into work once (research!) and the MD's word were "what the f*ck have you done to it?". answer is i bought it in 1998 and have never washed it, its spent weeks wet in the past cus' i had no garden (and were to lazy) to dry it! but its a little dirty and taty but still does the job perfectly well and for 4 big ones i wouldn't expect to have to look after it!
Most kit can take abuse, ive only ever had two tents fail on me and one was over 20 years old and had disintergrated and the other was destroyed by a bear but other than that ive never had to retire kit other than ripped trousers on occasion! go on CP give it some abuse you know you want to
> (In reply to epik)
>
> Hmmm... I take the view that if I've spent a lot of cash on something, I feel it's worth looking after. And a good soap wash can improve the performance of a manky old jacket. It's not _that_ hard...
>
> Hmmm... I take the view that if I've spent a lot of cash on something, I feel it's worth looking after. And a good soap wash can improve the performance of a manky old jacket. It's not _that_ hard...
are you the type of person who would buy a ferrari and then spend your time polishing it and eventually take it for a leisurely drive in the country?
i'm the type of person that would end up with it covered in mud and scratched from bombing about in country roads! whats the point in spending all that money unless your gonna use it to its limits and i hate cleaning kit!
took one of my TNF tents into work once (research!) and the MD's word were "what the f*ck have you done to it?". answer is i bought it in 1998 and have never washed it, its spent weeks wet in the past cus' i had no garden (and were to lazy) to dry it! but its a little dirty and taty but still does the job perfectly well and for 4 big ones i wouldn't expect to have to look after it!
Most kit can take abuse, ive only ever had two tents fail on me and one was over 20 years old and had disintergrated and the other was destroyed by a bear but other than that ive never had to retire kit other than ripped trousers on occasion! go on CP give it some abuse you know you want to
In reply to epik:
I sort of agree with the not washing thing, but it is a fundamental problem that DWR is crucial in keeping you dry when you are wearing a softshell, yet it wears off over time.
I can't work out if a) the treatment wears out or b) muck and grease stops it working, but you certainly have to remove the latter to reapply aftermarket DWR effectively. IMHO even if it is not the muck/oil/whatever that prevents water from beading, this makes washing essential.
It is a shame, but AFAIK just a limitation of the chemistry involved, that if you buy say, a mixmaster with Patagonia's deluge DWR the beading will be so good for the first six months that the jacket will be as good as waterproof, but after that you will never get the same performance from it again. However diligent you are with nikwax's products....
I sort of agree with the not washing thing, but it is a fundamental problem that DWR is crucial in keeping you dry when you are wearing a softshell, yet it wears off over time.
I can't work out if a) the treatment wears out or b) muck and grease stops it working, but you certainly have to remove the latter to reapply aftermarket DWR effectively. IMHO even if it is not the muck/oil/whatever that prevents water from beading, this makes washing essential.
It is a shame, but AFAIK just a limitation of the chemistry involved, that if you buy say, a mixmaster with Patagonia's deluge DWR the beading will be so good for the first six months that the jacket will be as good as waterproof, but after that you will never get the same performance from it again. However diligent you are with nikwax's products....
In reply to sandywilson:
No but a friend was!
it was some years ago with the venture scouts on a canada trip and between me and my old man we had 4 tents so other peopole borrowed the two spares and one of my best friends was in it when it got attacked. The bear bit her on the leg and totally destroyed the tent. made the papers in canada! all very exciting but i dont think the shop would have accepted it back as wear and tear!
> (In reply to epik)
> [...]
>
> Were you in it at the time?
> [...]
>
> Were you in it at the time?
No but a friend was!
it was some years ago with the venture scouts on a canada trip and between me and my old man we had 4 tents so other peopole borrowed the two spares and one of my best friends was in it when it got attacked. The bear bit her on the leg and totally destroyed the tent. made the papers in canada! all very exciting but i dont think the shop would have accepted it back as wear and tear!
Strange enough, I found one old article where soft shells were tested in laboratory and Polartec Powershield was less breathable and waterproof than gore soft shell...? Can´t be true..?
In reply to Smos: It certainly ought to be less water-resistant...
In reply to Bill Ford-Smith: Yes, I was supppossed to talk abour breathability...
In reply to Smos:
How old was the article? Where was it published? Is it online?
My experience is that I find it hard to believe it's true.
How old was the article? Where was it published? Is it online?
My experience is that I find it hard to believe it's true.
In reply to captain paranoia: It was in 10/2003.. not online, one trek magazine.. maybe I e-mail the writers and ask..
In reply to Smo:
That's actually very possible. I also saw this ones in a ducht magazine. But I think these tests did forget one thing. The vapour permeability of the windstopper membrane in itself is probably better than that of the adhesive/foam/discontinuous film used in powershield but the true value of powershield is that its air permeability is much larger than that of the windstopper membrane (Gore itself mentions an air permmeability of 0 cfm which means that it shouldn't be air permeable at all while powershield is believed to have an air permeability of 15 cfm). It's the air permeability which is responsible for the higher comfortlevel of powershield, not the breathability=vapour permeability.
That's actually very possible. I also saw this ones in a ducht magazine. But I think these tests did forget one thing. The vapour permeability of the windstopper membrane in itself is probably better than that of the adhesive/foam/discontinuous film used in powershield but the true value of powershield is that its air permeability is much larger than that of the windstopper membrane (Gore itself mentions an air permmeability of 0 cfm which means that it shouldn't be air permeable at all while powershield is believed to have an air permeability of 15 cfm). It's the air permeability which is responsible for the higher comfortlevel of powershield, not the breathability=vapour permeability.
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