UKC

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I can't find it on search. Do you need a separate walking axe as or will one of a pair of climbing axes do if you are only climbing low grade in Scotland? If so will a DMM Cirque axe, be ok to use as a walking axe?

In reply to Tiggs:

I would have thought a cirque is ideal as a low grade climbing/walking axe.

In reply to Wibble Wibble: Ooooh thanks - I've handled them in the shop and the shaft is small enough for my little hands and its light enough to carry, but heavy enough for swinging. Now I am starting to get twitchy about buying a pair!

In reply to Tiggs:

Dear Tiggs

That sounds the right axe for you, as it is you that is using it.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Thankyou Norrie, as helpful as ever!

In reply to Tiggs:

I wouldn't buy a DMM cirque if you want a pair of axes, cos they don't do a Cirque hammer.

If you want a pair of axes, look at DMM Raptors.

In reply to 2pints: But won't they be too technical for the stuff I'm going to be doing and I really do need one to double up as a walking axe.

In reply to Tiggs:

the good folk of RT (well, the gear freak ones) might not understand the meaning of the term 'too technical for the stuff I'm going to be doing'

In reply to Tiggs:


How easy are the climbs you are planning to do?

In reply to CJD: I know what you mean. At least no-one's suggested a pair of Grivel Monsters..........yet!

In reply to Simon22: I to III (max) - I'm still a novice at this lark. I need an axe that I can use to self-arrest if needed as well as climb with.

In reply to Tiggs:

I would say that is fine for you and the climbing you want to do, don't get one with too long a shaft. What are you going to use as your second?

In reply to Tiggs:

Buy 2 straight shafted alpine style axes with curved not drooped picks then.

More versatile and perfectly adequate for grade I-III routes.

In reply to Horse:Thanks Horse. Being new to this buying weapons business, I hadn't realised there is no cirque hammer so I haven't a clue. I'd already sussed that I need either a 50-55cm axe for use as walking axe.

In reply to Tiggs: It really depends on how much you intend to use them and if you think that you will progress much beyond grade I/II snow plods.

I quickly found that a walking axe soon became redundant and that I just carry a single climbing axe when out walking, so no you don't need a single walking axe.

Yes, you probably could climb up to grade IV (or higher) with a single axe and chopping steps, but in the long run you will enjoy it more/find it easier if you have a pair of axes.

So my conclusive answer is: it depends

In reply to Tiggs:

Look here:

http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Axes_33.html

and scroll down to the Mountain Technology jobs. You could buy a pair or use one with the DMM.

In reply to Tiggs:

What about the Grivel Air Tech Evolutions (see the needlesports site)? Or the Mountain Technology Vertige Alpinist, Straight Shaft (a bit heavy maybe, but you could replace the apline pick with a reverse pick if you want to get more technical). Or.....

In reply to Tiggs:

Dear Tiggs

Get also a hammer that you feel comfortable holding and swinging it. Don't get a too macho one, it is better to use technique than brute strength.

You will hear about getting "pumped" on a winter climb, well only climbers with bad technique get it, I've never had it.

Norrie

In reply to Horse: Which sort of pick Banana or Alpine?

I've looked at that page and the comparative info isn't that clear. Some picks are rated B or T in the reviews others are not. I know I'm looking for a B pick but is a Banana pick B rated and an Alpine pick T rated or what? Going into shops is useless as they never carry the full range of axes that you're looking for. So I need to get as much info before going shopping.

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Thanks Norrie that is my plan, that's why I liked the feel of the cirque. I will try and use what little technique I have

In reply to Tiggs: I know the cirque isn't a hammer but you get my drift I hope..

In reply to Tiggs:

B and T rating for a pick, is different to the b and t rating for the shaft!

B rated shafts are bona-fide walking axes and not tested to be strong enough to belay off. Avoid.

T rated shafts are more mountaineering axes and can belayed off, a good idea to get one.

B rated picks are picks that are quite thin, designed for ice climbing on waterfall ice, not scottish mixed climbing, although on my easy routes I used them and suspected its just that they wont last too long if I kept doing it!
T rated picks are the normal one.

I would say go for an alpine pick, or even better, go for an axe like a DMM Rptor or Mountain technology Vertige, where it will have an alpine pick, but can be replaced for a dropped (Bannana pick) if you start to climb harder, though I didnt notice much difference between the two on the low grade routes I did.

In reply to Wibble Wibble:

They look light and are sold in the right length for me - is that the right sort of pick though?

What's a reverse pick? You all seem to use different names for the same pick type :S

In reply to Tiggs:

On Aladins Couloir (Grade one snow plod in the Cairngorms with one axe once I got over the short ice-pitch at the bottom and imagine you wouldnt need a hammer and an axe if you only wanted to do very easy snow climbs, ie grade 1 stuff.

In reply to Tiggs:

don't forget to make sure that whatever you settle on is a nice colour and works with the rest of your outfit.

Hey, it's a strategy that works for me

In reply to 2pints: Thanks that helps. I understood about B & T rated picks, but didn't know about B & T rated shafts.

Can a DMM Raptor be used as a walking axe though?

In reply to CJD: Well I started off looking for pink axes

Seriously, though this is bl**dy complicated.

In reply to Tiggs:

Reverse = Banana pick

In reply to 2pints: Just to be difficult, I like the symmetry of 2 axes and used 2 borrowed axes last year, and whilst I managed, they were heavyish.

In reply to Tiggs:

Yes it can.

It's a straight shaft axe, so would be fine for plunging into the snow.

You'd be able to ice-axe arest if you kept the alpine pick on it, but don't try it with the dropped pick, almost took my arm off.

I had the mis fortune of using a 60cm Raptor for a day in Scotland and found it too long, but I'm only small (5"7), so don't go for anything too long, I find a 50cm axe just fine.

In reply to Wibble Wibble: ah now we're getting somewhere. Thankyou. Why the different names for the same pick?

In reply to Tiggs:

Sorry, look at the Technical Hammer just above the Cirque on the linked page.

In reply to Tiggs:

yeh, I guess you could get by just using two axes, rather than a hammer and an axe, just wouldnt be able to place warthogs (Drive in ice-screws)on hard turf, but I havent had to use them yet!

In reply to 2pints: I'm only 5'3" and have decided 55cm is the max for me 50cm is probably optimum. Is it ok to have one axe banana and the other alpine? I think thats what I used last year.

In reply to Tiggs:




yep, I dont think that would be a problem.

You'd probably want your Adze (The one with the spade bit) axe to have an alpine pick on it though, cos you're more likely to use that one as a walking axe and technical axes are really hard to self-arrest with smoothly, too aggresive picks.

Also, I think a 50cm axe would be best for you as longer axes are a bugger to swing I found. Also, you don't want the axe to reach your ankles, it's a walking aid, not a walking stick and you're likely to be walking off camber if you understand, Im probably making this really complicated!

In reply to 2pints: Nope that's easy to understand. I understand about cambers and length of axe. I have done quite a bit of research but it seems to just thrown up more questions.

In reply to Tiggs:

Keep it simple Tiggs!

50cm
Alpine pick
Not too heavy
A leash of some kind
Straight shaft maybe slight bend at the top but not a curved shaft, T-rated.

In reply to Tiggs:

Dear Tiggs

It is not, it is others who make it complicated. I used an old wooden shafted axe for nearly 30 years, and it got me up winter routes. As I said at the beginning, it is you that is using them, and super modern axes are not as good as technique.

Norrie

In reply to 2pints:

http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Axes_33.html

Any of the axes listed as "Alpine axes" will do the job perfectly. Go to a shop and play away!

In reply to Tiggs:

It is not complicated although it may seem so.

You need one you are comfortable with for the job you will be doing. Your first choice was fine, just use the same criteria for the other one.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I appreciate that Norrie, but I don't want a too long, heavy, thick shafted axe with the wrong pick on it, that I can't use as a walking axe. Perhaps you could lend me your axes? Although I suspect they might be too long for me...... or you will be using them.

In reply to Tiggs: Why not try some womens tools. I'm short and have tiny hands and ent through similar problems to you. I couldn't find anything that felt good in my hand or to swing till I tried these. They are lovely for me but doesn't mean you will like them. I did try the entire market before settling for these. Finding some to try out is the problem though. They aren't very popular around the UK.
http://www.camp-usa.com/article.asp?ID=57

In reply to All: Thanks for all your help - it is much clearer what options I should be going for.

In reply to Tiggs:

Why not try borrowing an axe the first time? Seems silly to buy a "walking axe" if you soon find it's not what you want... there must be loads of traditional axes lurking about in cupboards given the number of new ones around.

I'm not sure that a walking axe is that necessary, if you buy a pair you can just take one... in the alps taking just a hammer axe avoid the need to take a peg hammer on most moderate mixed or rock routes.

In reply to Tiggs:

Dear Tiggs

I now use 10 year old CM Pulsars, I don't know their length. The Terradactyl Ice Hammers I used were about 40cm. No, you can't have my axes, as they are too sentimental to me.

Norrie

In reply to Tiggs: I've glanced through this thread and before I get a headache thought to mention that I have a DMM Raptor 65cm in very good condition which you can have for say £30 provided you can collect in the Lakes or en route to Scotland (Penrith?). It would serve until you'd sorteed out the complexities!

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I must have bad technique then!

In reply to Tiggs:

I guess you will be doing Grade i and II stuff with III on a second.

You will be fine with a pair of alpine axes no less than 50cm otherwise they will be technical in design and you will walk stooped.

MJH is indeed correct - you could climb IV and higher with a pair of long axes, cutting steps as you go, You will, however, die.

You are welcome to ckeck out my axes, I have an old 55cm Mountain Tech alpine axe, a pair of Charlet Moser Axars which are good for mixed and alpine, and a pair of DMM Anarchists, which should raise eyebrows on Aladdins Couloir.

In reply to Erik B:

But isn't the way Norrie climbs, the 'gold standard' to which we should all aspire?

In reply to Erik B:

Dear Erik

Your "pumping", has nothing to do with climbing technique.

Norrie

In reply to John Rushby: Thanks John for that.

Checking out your axes...... that's a new one

Seriously, did I have a go with your Axars at the Ice Factor in Kinlochleven in 2004. They were rather lovely....

In reply to Tiggs:

Dear Tiggs

Erik can winter climb and at a higher standard than I ever did.

Norrie

In reply to potted shrimp: Thanks v.much for the offer, but the axe will be too long for me to use as a walking axe I've worked out that a 50/55cm (max) is the best for me.

In reply to Tiggs:

Hi Tiggs, don't know exactly what you're planning so advice comes with a health warning.

Depending on your height a 55cm Cirque should double quite nicely as a walking axe, and on most grade Is you probably won't want a second axe. On grade II you probably will, but this terrain is not difficult enough to require identical tools. You are however more likely to want something with a hammer.

Assuming that you see yourself progressing to harder climbs, why not get a shorter technical hammer as a second tool? Then you can stagger expense and only need to buy one matching adze when you start doing IVs (the cirque will probably feel clumsy on this kind of terrain but can be retained for walking).

In reply to Jamie B.: Good advice, even better borrow someone else's to see what suits you.

In reply to Tiggs:

Well, it sounds like you're in a similar position to me- looking at doing what in real terms is "easy" stuff - grade I-III (max) kind of things and want a pair for axes for mountaineering, including a bit of alpine stuff, but also won't be foolish to walk with. I found the Grivel airech evolutions to be quite nice. You can get a pair, so you can have one adze and one hammer (though the hammer is a bit weedy....), come in different lengths, and for me they are nice and light and swing sweetly (though this is the thing only you can decide). They have the non-banana pick, so they will be less than ideal for, say, steep water ice, but if you're not doing that who cares?!

However, whatever anyone says, it's up to you to get to a shop and have a swing, and see what feels right, as long as it fits with the specification you have set yourself. For me, it was the Grivel axes, but it depends what's about at the moment for example, the new Black Diamond Venoms look like they could well do the job too.

Tim