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Hia, after reading how to rig a bottom rope anchor from the Rock Climbing essentials book, I've become a little confused.
It seems to suggest to carry a separate length of rope to create an equalized anchor so that the climbing rope can then be clipped into the v this forms with a screwgate, makes sense but isn't this what cordellete's are for.
If using a rope in this fashion is the usual method, is static rope or dynamic rope the best option and what diameter and length is most commonly required to achieve such an anchor ?
Much appreciated.
It seems to suggest to carry a separate length of rope to create an equalized anchor so that the climbing rope can then be clipped into the v this forms with a screwgate, makes sense but isn't this what cordellete's are for.
If using a rope in this fashion is the usual method, is static rope or dynamic rope the best option and what diameter and length is most commonly required to achieve such an anchor ?
Much appreciated.
In reply to erika:
static, and you'll find it easier generally than using cordelette
static, and you'll find it easier generally than using cordelette
In reply to erika:
its all very easy stuff, but best to get someone experienced to show you as its also easy to make a silly mistake with it.
just don't mention top roping on UKC or you'll upset all the "real" climbers who think its heresy
its all very easy stuff, but best to get someone experienced to show you as its also easy to make a silly mistake with it.
just don't mention top roping on UKC or you'll upset all the "real" climbers who think its heresy
In reply to erika:
Depends on the circumstances but you generally want to build a system where the master point (the bit the rope you're climbing on is clipped into) is in a good position (not causing the rope to run over sharp edges, loose rock etc) and static (not moving side-to-side, up and down). You achieve the latter by using more than one anchor point as you describe to create a stable triangle thingy and by using static material such as slings, corelettes and / or static rope.
That's not saying you absolutely can't use another dynamic rope to set this up but you do need to be very careful that the extra movement you'll get as this stretches doesn't cause dangerous wear and tear on it or other parts of the system. Sharp rock can cut / wear through stuff very quickly especially if it's loaded and moving and in a bottom-rope scenario you can't see this happening.
You also have a responsibility not to damage the environment in which you and others climb and soft rock can easily be damaged by loaded ropes / gear running over it. Try to pad out any possible areas of wear with an empty rucksack or similar tied in place to protect your gear and the rock.
10-20m of static rope or some long slings (thick nylon is much cheaper than dyneema - you don't need the low weight as you're not carrying it when you climb) should see you right.
Personally I'd go for 2 locking krabs opposed on the master point too if it's out of sight.
Depends on the circumstances but you generally want to build a system where the master point (the bit the rope you're climbing on is clipped into) is in a good position (not causing the rope to run over sharp edges, loose rock etc) and static (not moving side-to-side, up and down). You achieve the latter by using more than one anchor point as you describe to create a stable triangle thingy and by using static material such as slings, corelettes and / or static rope.
That's not saying you absolutely can't use another dynamic rope to set this up but you do need to be very careful that the extra movement you'll get as this stretches doesn't cause dangerous wear and tear on it or other parts of the system. Sharp rock can cut / wear through stuff very quickly especially if it's loaded and moving and in a bottom-rope scenario you can't see this happening.
You also have a responsibility not to damage the environment in which you and others climb and soft rock can easily be damaged by loaded ropes / gear running over it. Try to pad out any possible areas of wear with an empty rucksack or similar tied in place to protect your gear and the rock.
10-20m of static rope or some long slings (thick nylon is much cheaper than dyneema - you don't need the low weight as you're not carrying it when you climb) should see you right.
Personally I'd go for 2 locking krabs opposed on the master point too if it's out of sight.
In reply to erika: Cordelettes are more for belaying on a stance. PS I use this book for these type of questions. Miles better than others I've tried.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-0298356-7979362?url=search-alias%3...
Layout is as a dictionary which makes it very easy to use and it's pretty comprehensive. Not quite sure it covers setting up a top/bottom rope tho'. I'll check wen I get home, NM
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-0298356-7979362?url=search-alias%3...
Layout is as a dictionary which makes it very easy to use and it's pretty comprehensive. Not quite sure it covers setting up a top/bottom rope tho'. I'll check wen I get home, NM
In reply to davidwright:
I do feel that I have to warn you that in general, unless undertaken on southern sandstone and with proper precautions (see SS code of conduct), top roping will lead to a deteriation in your eyesight and others to question your moral fortitude
> (In reply to erika)
The most usual tool for the job is either a 20m segement of old lead rope or a similar length of ex-absail rope. SPA's working for outdoor centres having almost unlimited suplies of both. Occasionaly a dyed in the wool southerner will have a length of static line cut to length for this purpous.
I do feel that I have to warn you that in general, unless undertaken on southern sandstone and with proper precautions (see SS code of conduct), top roping will lead to a deteriation in your eyesight and others to question your moral fortitude
In reply to davidwright:
It's a fair guess though that someone asking about how to set up a bottom-rope isn't going to have a well-used lead rope or ab rope ready for retirement...
It's a fair guess though that someone asking about how to set up a bottom-rope isn't going to have a well-used lead rope or ab rope ready for retirement...
In reply to davidwright:
sorry erika, i tried to warn you
> (In reply to davidwright)
> [...]
> [...]
>
> I do feel that I have to warn you that in general, unless undertaken on southern sandstone and with proper precautions (see SS code of conduct), top roping will lead to a deteriation in your eyesight and others to question your moral fortitude
> I do feel that I have to warn you that in general, unless undertaken on southern sandstone and with proper precautions (see SS code of conduct), top roping will lead to a deteriation in your eyesight and others to question your moral fortitude
sorry erika, i tried to warn you
In reply to PJay: Leading trad is my aim ideally, but so far I've only had 3 indoor wall sessions and an indoor bouldering session, so theres a long way to go before I'll be leading, just want to get as much experience as I can where I can, if I have to top/bottom rope to get it, thats fine by me for now.
Thanks for all the help.
Thanks for all the help.
In reply to erika:
yeah, i know, i still top rope stuff now and again, and set them for other people, but it's seen as a sin slightly worse than murder by some people on here who don't understand the concept of live and let live, and normally you'd have had loas of abuse by now by people who went straight to leading from nappies and have never top roped anything in their lives (or so they say)
just letting you know what to expect for when the abuse starts
yeah, i know, i still top rope stuff now and again, and set them for other people, but it's seen as a sin slightly worse than murder by some people on here who don't understand the concept of live and let live, and normally you'd have had loas of abuse by now by people who went straight to leading from nappies and have never top roped anything in their lives (or so they say)
just letting you know what to expect for when the abuse starts
In reply to erika: just try top ropeing, its the best way to climb, honest. forget all the other ways.
In reply to erika: Ha Ha, just joking, the thought of all you mr macho's out there, ready to kill me, or bugger me.
In reply to erika:
why don't you team up with some people who lead ie. a club and second them up the routes (easy ones) you'll learn the whole climbing thing alot quicker, you'll be leading yourself in no time at all
why don't you team up with some people who lead ie. a club and second them up the routes (easy ones) you'll learn the whole climbing thing alot quicker, you'll be leading yourself in no time at all
In reply to erika: Any reason why you can't use the 'dead' end of the rope you are using to top rope with?
In reply to Aleister Crowley:
because there isn't one, as the rope runs up from the climber, thru the anchor and back down to the belayer
because there isn't one, as the rope runs up from the climber, thru the anchor and back down to the belayer
In reply to PJay:
...and unless it's a route longer than half the length (?) of the rope there will be excess rope to use! Or slings. OP doesn't need to buy anything else.
Another question could be why bother unless the climber is excessively more weighty than the belayer?
> (In reply to Aleister Crowley)
> because there isn't one, as the rope runs up from the climber, thru the anchor and back down to the belayer
> because there isn't one, as the rope runs up from the climber, thru the anchor and back down to the belayer
...and unless it's a route longer than half the length (?) of the rope there will be excess rope to use! Or slings. OP doesn't need to buy anything else.
Another question could be why bother unless the climber is excessively more weighty than the belayer?
In reply to erika: Hi,
I checked Int. Handbook Technical Mountaineering and it has a good section on this...if you can afford £15-18 it's a worthwhile investment. Shh don't tell them but I could scan you the page and send it to you...I think you'd then be likely to buy it but they might not see it that way, NM
PS 9-10mm static rope?...and don't let anyone tell you bottom roping is for cissies...just enjoy yourself doing what you feel right about
I checked Int. Handbook Technical Mountaineering and it has a good section on this...if you can afford £15-18 it's a worthwhile investment. Shh don't tell them but I could scan you the page and send it to you...I think you'd then be likely to buy it but they might not see it that way, NM
PS 9-10mm static rope?...and don't let anyone tell you bottom roping is for cissies...just enjoy yourself doing what you feel right about
In reply to brt: With a 60 metre rope, you are looking at the limits of a realistic tope rope route. If you were on say, Stanage (+/- 20 metres), you would have an amount of rope on the 'dead' end with which you could constuct a bottom belay. The belayer on the groung does not need to be belayed to the end of the rope (or in fact tied to the system at all), and a bombproof bottombelay can be used as a direct belay.
In reply to erika:
I've ordered a 10m length of 10.5mm semi-static now, I couldn't imagine ever needing nor wanting to carry any more, I opted for the largest diameter I could find for greater abrassion resistance.
Cost just over £17 including delivery via web-outlet.
As for the technical mountaineering book, it will probably be my next book purchase, going to finish reading this one first before I by another though.
I've ordered a 10m length of 10.5mm semi-static now, I couldn't imagine ever needing nor wanting to carry any more, I opted for the largest diameter I could find for greater abrassion resistance.
Cost just over £17 including delivery via web-outlet.
As for the technical mountaineering book, it will probably be my next book purchase, going to finish reading this one first before I by another though.
In reply to erika:
Erika,
Ask at your climbing wall for someone to show you how to belay/climb a lead route, and depending on how many people there are with you, you can tie in to a top rope too and have two belayers for lots of safety, doesn't matter if you look a bit soft!!
Sam (Who's just started lead climbing!)
Erika,
Ask at your climbing wall for someone to show you how to belay/climb a lead route, and depending on how many people there are with you, you can tie in to a top rope too and have two belayers for lots of safety, doesn't matter if you look a bit soft!!
Sam (Who's just started lead climbing!)
In reply to Sam Farrow:
The wall at Leeds Uni is new and is not yet set up for anything other then top-roping, it could be up to a month yet, and the only other wall I know of is Leeds Wall, where I still need to register.
I'll settle for stripping either...
The wall at Leeds Uni is new and is not yet set up for anything other then top-roping, it could be up to a month yet, and the only other wall I know of is Leeds Wall, where I still need to register.
I'll settle for stripping either...
In reply to Aleister Crowley:
5-10 metres to form the anchor point at the top, with 3 points of contact, then you'd have 20 metres coming down to the belayer, then 20 going back up to anchors then 20 coming back down to climber then 1.5/2 to tie in to rope???
you'd need a very long rope to do what you suggest.
if the op wanted to top rope, ie., sit at the top of the cliff secured to a tree or a few bits of gear and dro the rope down to the climber then fair enough, but she specifically says "bottom rope"
5-10 metres to form the anchor point at the top, with 3 points of contact, then you'd have 20 metres coming down to the belayer, then 20 going back up to anchors then 20 coming back down to climber then 1.5/2 to tie in to rope???
you'd need a very long rope to do what you suggest.
if the op wanted to top rope, ie., sit at the top of the cliff secured to a tree or a few bits of gear and dro the rope down to the climber then fair enough, but she specifically says "bottom rope"
In reply to PJay: I think you are getting unecessarily confused. Here is what you would do:
1. Ariive at crag;
2. Select appropriate route, with suitable belays at both top and bottom;
3. Go to top of crag; rig belays with all usual caveats, especially rub points and belay krab over the lip of the crag;
4. Uncoil rope; clip middle of rope to belay krab. Throw both ends to the bottom of the crag. Descend to bottom of crag;
5. Pull rope through until one end of rope has only about 2 metres on the ground. This is the live end of the rope;
6. Construct belay on the ground, using a combination of slings and the other end of the rope. The belay must be rigged for an upwards pull. I often tie the rope into belays using a bowline on the bight to equalise the anchors;
7. Tie a knot up the dead rope, into which you will clip the belayer; OR tie a knot which can then be used as a direct belay. If the ground below the crag is steep, I might tie a bowline on a bight here too, with one loop short, and one a bit longer - the belayer clips into the short loop and attaches the belay device to the longer loop.
So, really nothing complicated...a 20 metre climb would use up 40 metres of rope; add 2 metres for tying in and there is still 18 metres of rope lying there on the ground. How big a bottom belay were you thinking of?
1. Ariive at crag;
2. Select appropriate route, with suitable belays at both top and bottom;
3. Go to top of crag; rig belays with all usual caveats, especially rub points and belay krab over the lip of the crag;
4. Uncoil rope; clip middle of rope to belay krab. Throw both ends to the bottom of the crag. Descend to bottom of crag;
5. Pull rope through until one end of rope has only about 2 metres on the ground. This is the live end of the rope;
6. Construct belay on the ground, using a combination of slings and the other end of the rope. The belay must be rigged for an upwards pull. I often tie the rope into belays using a bowline on the bight to equalise the anchors;
7. Tie a knot up the dead rope, into which you will clip the belayer; OR tie a knot which can then be used as a direct belay. If the ground below the crag is steep, I might tie a bowline on a bight here too, with one loop short, and one a bit longer - the belayer clips into the short loop and attaches the belay device to the longer loop.
So, really nothing complicated...a 20 metre climb would use up 40 metres of rope; add 2 metres for tying in and there is still 18 metres of rope lying there on the ground. How big a bottom belay were you thinking of?
In reply to Aleister Crowley:
Alternatively, have your buddy belay you from the top. Much less rope eaten up.
Alternatively, have your buddy belay you from the top. Much less rope eaten up.
In reply to quadmyre:
It's also worth tying a figure of 8 so that it has two loops to clip into not just one....if you're being super, super cautious!
It's also worth tying a figure of 8 so that it has two loops to clip into not just one....if you're being super, super cautious!
In reply to erika:
Well the static-rope as already been delivered, I'm a little shocked it arrived so fast.
Well the static-rope as already been delivered, I'm a little shocked it arrived so fast.
In reply to Aleister Crowley:
OP is for the anchor at the top of the climb which will take the running rope, not for a ground anchor to stop belayer being pulled up
OP is for the anchor at the top of the climb which will take the running rope, not for a ground anchor to stop belayer being pulled up
In reply to erika: This may be obvious, but don't forget to tie a knot in the v. Otherwise faliure of one anchor = faliure of the whole system
In reply to PJay:
Ah, there in lies the confusion. I'd got into my head OP meant a ground anchor - I've re read the thread and no sign of that!
They're probably off climbing as we speak (!).
> (In reply to Aleister Crowley)
> OP is for the anchor at the top of the climb which will take the running rope, not for a ground anchor to stop belayer being pulled up
> OP is for the anchor at the top of the climb which will take the running rope, not for a ground anchor to stop belayer being pulled up
Ah, there in lies the confusion. I'd got into my head OP meant a ground anchor - I've re read the thread and no sign of that!
They're probably off climbing as we speak (!).
> They're probably off climbing as we speak (!).
I wish, in need climbing partners, had a full days hiking around Ilkley though.
In reply to erika: haven't read all of this post so I appologise if someone has already said this:
I've used static rope to rig bottom ropes and I've learnt a few useful bits'n'bobs. Firsty, get a lenght of tubular webbing that is not stictched down the middle. Thread your static rope all the way through this - it protects your rope and the crag an will dramatically increase the life of your rope. Secondly use two identical krabs for connecting the climbing rope. This reduces the friction and so it is easier to belay with. Third, make sure that the climbing rope and the krabs go over the top of the crag. This prevents the climbing rope rubbing on the rock and over a someitmes sharp lip. This will increase the life of both your rope and the crag. Finally put up a notice at your local climbing wall and see if you can get out with someone with some experiance. Go have fun!
I've used static rope to rig bottom ropes and I've learnt a few useful bits'n'bobs. Firsty, get a lenght of tubular webbing that is not stictched down the middle. Thread your static rope all the way through this - it protects your rope and the crag an will dramatically increase the life of your rope. Secondly use two identical krabs for connecting the climbing rope. This reduces the friction and so it is easier to belay with. Third, make sure that the climbing rope and the krabs go over the top of the crag. This prevents the climbing rope rubbing on the rock and over a someitmes sharp lip. This will increase the life of both your rope and the crag. Finally put up a notice at your local climbing wall and see if you can get out with someone with some experiance. Go have fun!
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