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Thinking of buying cams in the not so distant future and was wondering what people think about the option in the title.
Ideas?
Dan
Ideas?
Dan
Or for that matter which cams in general?
Dan
Dan
In reply to dleach:
Double stems flex better in horizontal placements and the trigger wires seem to last a lot longer as they are more protected.
However they don't work as well in vertical placements where the stem can't be aligned to the direction of load. In this placement if you fall on them the stem wires can get very bent and are difficult to straighten out again.
I have a mix of both single and double stem cams but if I were to get any more I would buy single stem cams.
Sam
Double stems flex better in horizontal placements and the trigger wires seem to last a lot longer as they are more protected.
However they don't work as well in vertical placements where the stem can't be aligned to the direction of load. In this placement if you fall on them the stem wires can get very bent and are difficult to straighten out again.
I have a mix of both single and double stem cams but if I were to get any more I would buy single stem cams.
Sam
In reply to dleach:
singel stem cams.
they flex in multiple directions where as double-stemmed ones dont..
i have aliens from size 1 of a friend and below and BD camalots above this
i'm very happy with all of em
singel stem cams.
they flex in multiple directions where as double-stemmed ones dont..
i have aliens from size 1 of a friend and below and BD camalots above this
i'm very happy with all of em
For to make a reasonable although not cost prohibative set of cams what should I be getting. How many, sizes etc.
Thanks for the tips so far!
Dan
Thanks for the tips so far!
Dan
In reply to dleach: Read the stuff on Andy Kirkpatrick site linked above, it probably the best stuff on line
Small cams - get Aliens or WC Zeros (single stem). They are easily the best choice and very flexible stems as essential to get the best out of the smallest and most marginal placements.
Very Large Cams - There are only really single stem designs available - BD Camalots or WC Tech Friend
With all other sizes it really comes down to personal preferecnces. I've never really had problems getting double stemmed units larger than a WC/DMM size 1 it hold in vertical cracks:
-DMM 4CU (double) - The extenable slings are great, as is the co-ordinated colour coding throughout the DMM and WC ranges. You can clip directly to the cam. They are what I've got.
-WC Tech Friends (single) - Robust, with user replacable triggers, and WC/DMM colour coding.
-BC Camlots (single) - Slightly heavier, slightly bigger range, user replacable triggers. Again you can clip directly to the cam.
Small cams - get Aliens or WC Zeros (single stem). They are easily the best choice and very flexible stems as essential to get the best out of the smallest and most marginal placements.
Very Large Cams - There are only really single stem designs available - BD Camalots or WC Tech Friend
With all other sizes it really comes down to personal preferecnces. I've never really had problems getting double stemmed units larger than a WC/DMM size 1 it hold in vertical cracks:
-DMM 4CU (double) - The extenable slings are great, as is the co-ordinated colour coding throughout the DMM and WC ranges. You can clip directly to the cam. They are what I've got.
-WC Tech Friends (single) - Robust, with user replacable triggers, and WC/DMM colour coding.
-BC Camlots (single) - Slightly heavier, slightly bigger range, user replacable triggers. Again you can clip directly to the cam.
In reply to dleach:
I have DMM 3cu's, which I like, but I tend to do a lot of slab climbing atm, and the advantage of the narrower head is emphasised. They're also very light. Bigger sizes I'll be getting DMM 4cu's for bigger sizes and wc zeros for smaller sizes. With regards double stemmed cams you just need to be a bit more careful when placing them in vertical cracks.
Josh.
I have DMM 3cu's, which I like, but I tend to do a lot of slab climbing atm, and the advantage of the narrower head is emphasised. They're also very light. Bigger sizes I'll be getting DMM 4cu's for bigger sizes and wc zeros for smaller sizes. With regards double stemmed cams you just need to be a bit more careful when placing them in vertical cracks.
Josh.
In reply to dleach:
I bought single stem (WC Tech Friends) because I thought the pairs of cams on either side of the single stem work more independently. Now that the trigger wires are a bit mangled I wonder if I should have got double stem. Double stem often have the doubled up sling which I think is an excellent idea it adds next to nothing to the weight and in half the placements where a longer sling is required it saves you ~60-100g/~£7-15 for carrying/buying an extra extender.
I bought single stem (WC Tech Friends) because I thought the pairs of cams on either side of the single stem work more independently. Now that the trigger wires are a bit mangled I wonder if I should have got double stem. Double stem often have the doubled up sling which I think is an excellent idea it adds next to nothing to the weight and in half the placements where a longer sling is required it saves you ~60-100g/~£7-15 for carrying/buying an extra extender.
In reply to dleach: I have double stemmed cams and the thing I notice most is that they are much easier to just grab and stuff into a placement quickly. You don't need to hold and squeeze the cam in such a precise way as you would do to a single stemmed variant.
The wheels of double stemmed cams are closer together too so can fit in small pockets, but I've not noticed that much.
The wheels of double stemmed cams are closer together too so can fit in small pockets, but I've not noticed that much.
In reply to md@r:
I personally find i want a long extender with two biners on for most cam placements; to ensure they don't swivel when I'm climbing or if the bit of gear above them get's loaded, therefore I find the doubled up sling arrangement on DMM cams neither here nor there.
I personally find i want a long extender with two biners on for most cam placements; to ensure they don't swivel when I'm climbing or if the bit of gear above them get's loaded, therefore I find the doubled up sling arrangement on DMM cams neither here nor there.
Thanks for all the comments.
I've been offered some HB flexi fix cams for a good price anyone have any comments on these?
Dan
I've been offered some HB flexi fix cams for a good price anyone have any comments on these?
Dan
In reply to dleach:
quite nice, reasonably hard wearing, cost 20-30 notes new when they were still being made I believe
quite nice, reasonably hard wearing, cost 20-30 notes new when they were still being made I believe
In reply to CurlyStevo:
After a decade plus of using friends, I have since last summer been using DMMs. The doubled sling is excellent - I can't understand at all how you can see that this doesn't prevent the problem you outline?
Mark Stevenson - the Rock Empire Pulsar cams are nearly as big as the biggest camalots and friends, and have doubled stems. They also cost less for the two of them than a one big friend costs on its own! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=47986
> I personally find i want a long extender with two biners on for most cam placements; to ensure they don't swivel when I'm climbing or if the bit of gear above them get's loaded, therefore I find the doubled up sling arrangement on DMM cams neither here nor there.
After a decade plus of using friends, I have since last summer been using DMMs. The doubled sling is excellent - I can't understand at all how you can see that this doesn't prevent the problem you outline?
Mark Stevenson - the Rock Empire Pulsar cams are nearly as big as the biggest camalots and friends, and have doubled stems. They also cost less for the two of them than a one big friend costs on its own! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=47986
In reply to TobyA:
the sling in the long configuration with just a biner on the end is still shorter than a normal cam with a sports/short extender on it. Hence it doesn't solve anything!
the sling in the long configuration with just a biner on the end is still shorter than a normal cam with a sports/short extender on it. Hence it doesn't solve anything!
In reply to TobyA:
How does a couple of these in the larger sizes sound and then some single stems for lower down the sizes?
Dan
> [...]
> Mark Stevenson - the Rock Empire Pulsar cams are nearly as big as the biggest camalots and friends, and have doubled stems. They also cost less for the two of them than a one big friend costs on its own!
> Mark Stevenson - the Rock Empire Pulsar cams are nearly as big as the biggest camalots and friends, and have doubled stems. They also cost less for the two of them than a one big friend costs on its own!
How does a couple of these in the larger sizes sound and then some single stems for lower down the sizes?
Dan
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Except a) it works perfectly well and b) you then don't need to carry as many extenders. I think you must be doing some really bizarre routes or have very odd rope work if you find this a problem?
> the sling in the long configuration with just a biner on the end is still shorter than a normal cam with a sports/short extender on it. Hence it doesn't solve anything!
Except a) it works perfectly well and b) you then don't need to carry as many extenders. I think you must be doing some really bizarre routes or have very odd rope work if you find this a problem?
In reply to dleach: You can argue the toss over it, but single of double - having used both for many years - I don't think it really matters. Buy the ones a) you can afford and b) you like the look/feel of.
All of them work fine. If you want huge cams the Rock Empire Pulsars are without doubt the best value for money, but unless you are climbing regularly on a type of rock where crack climbing is the norm you probably don't need any that big.
All of them work fine. If you want huge cams the Rock Empire Pulsars are without doubt the best value for money, but unless you are climbing regularly on a type of rock where crack climbing is the norm you probably don't need any that big.
In reply to TobyA:
SoOOoo you think a cam extended generally shorter than a normal cam with a sports extender on is the general case solution for a trad climb. And you think I do bizare routes or have odd rope work.
BTW is this a typical cam placement for you?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=47986
It's best to orientate your cams in the direction of the fall and to lengthen them long enough so the rope doesn't pull them horizontal as you climb past them.
SoOOoo you think a cam extended generally shorter than a normal cam with a sports extender on is the general case solution for a trad climb. And you think I do bizare routes or have odd rope work.
BTW is this a typical cam placement for you?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=47986
It's best to orientate your cams in the direction of the fall and to lengthen them long enough so the rope doesn't pull them horizontal as you climb past them.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
This has got to be pretty sound advice but thats not to say shorter extensions are all out. Different things work for different people and weird ropework doesn't mean bad ropework.
(I learnt half of my climbing ropework from a caver and i still get funny looks!)
Dan
>
> It's best to orientate your cams in the direction of the fall and to lengthen them long enough so the rope doesn't pull them horizontal as you climb past them.
> It's best to orientate your cams in the direction of the fall and to lengthen them long enough so the rope doesn't pull them horizontal as you climb past them.
This has got to be pretty sound advice but thats not to say shorter extensions are all out. Different things work for different people and weird ropework doesn't mean bad ropework.
(I learnt half of my climbing ropework from a caver and i still get funny looks!)
Dan
Quick Question.. Do the HB flexi fix cams have reverse cam strength/cam stops?
Dan
Dan
In reply to dleach:
the newer ones did yes.
the newer ones did yes.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Where's the best place to buy them these days? Any good reliable overseas firms?
Where's the best place to buy them these days? Any good reliable overseas firms?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
If whatever method of extension is enough to stop the cam from walking from the placement, then yes - that's a perfectly acceptable solution. If you are using relatively stiff sports extenders, i.e. with a captive end krab and QD of the stitched-through type, you may well have less flexibility in the link than using a pulled out doubled sling on a DMM cam, plus in smaller sizes there is the occasionaly problem of the top end krab getting twisted by, or even stuck in, the crack.
There is a Finnish expression which loosely translated could be "don't try to teach your father to f**k". If you would like to lead that route and show me how you would use the the baggy fist jams at the very back of the overhang without having to push the cam out of the way, I'd be very happy to hold your rope and watch and learn. I'm sure you would do with style and grace.
> SoOOoo you think a cam extended generally shorter than a normal cam with a sports extender on is the general case solution for a trad climb. And you think I do bizare routes or have odd rope work.
If whatever method of extension is enough to stop the cam from walking from the placement, then yes - that's a perfectly acceptable solution. If you are using relatively stiff sports extenders, i.e. with a captive end krab and QD of the stitched-through type, you may well have less flexibility in the link than using a pulled out doubled sling on a DMM cam, plus in smaller sizes there is the occasionaly problem of the top end krab getting twisted by, or even stuck in, the crack.
> It's best to orientate your cams in the direction of the fall and to lengthen them long enough so the rope doesn't pull them horizontal as you climb past them.
There is a Finnish expression which loosely translated could be "don't try to teach your father to f**k". If you would like to lead that route and show me how you would use the the baggy fist jams at the very back of the overhang without having to push the cam out of the way, I'd be very happy to hold your rope and watch and learn. I'm sure you would do with style and grace.
In reply to dleach: try joe browns or v12 they sell dmm cosmetic seconds, 4cu cams for £30. Made in Wales too, not some eastern european sweatshop.
In reply to TobyA:
Brilliant. Much better than the grandmother sucking eggs thing. I do hope my seive of a memory can retain it.
> "don't try to teach your father to f**k".
Brilliant. Much better than the grandmother sucking eggs thing. I do hope my seive of a memory can retain it.
In reply to brothersoulshine: They are at times a sullen, and dour race but they do have a rather to-the-point and delightfully brutal turn of phrase. UKC's resident Finns (Juki and HeMa at least) could probably come up with some other examples.
In reply to CurlyStevo: We both seem to agree that every gear placement should be considered individually with regard to how it's connected to the rope.
I would like to think that after climbing for 12 years, being a professional instructor for 8 of them and having placed cams on lead around 3000 times I can make a valid judgement about how much, if at all, a cam or any other runner needs to be extended.
I've climbed with DMM 4CUs and laterly WC Zeros for 6 years now and I only find I need to extend around 1 in 10 placements.
When I do need to extend them, a large proportion of the time it may be with a 60cm sling rather than an extender anyway.
So in answer to the question you posed to TobyA:
Categorically YES. From 6 years of experience climbing over 400 routes in UK, Alps and Yosemite up to E4 with them, I have found the extendible slings on DMM 4CUs and WC Zeros are sufficient over 90% of the time.
I would like to think that after climbing for 12 years, being a professional instructor for 8 of them and having placed cams on lead around 3000 times I can make a valid judgement about how much, if at all, a cam or any other runner needs to be extended.
I've climbed with DMM 4CUs and laterly WC Zeros for 6 years now and I only find I need to extend around 1 in 10 placements.
When I do need to extend them, a large proportion of the time it may be with a 60cm sling rather than an extender anyway.
So in answer to the question you posed to TobyA:
> SoOOoo you think a cam extended generally shorter than a normal cam with a sports extender on is the general case solution for a trad climb.
Categorically YES. From 6 years of experience climbing over 400 routes in UK, Alps and Yosemite up to E4 with them, I have found the extendible slings on DMM 4CUs and WC Zeros are sufficient over 90% of the time.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Just for you Stevo I checked this, and you aren't actually right anyway: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/05/this-posting-is-not-important...
The things I do for my brothers and sisters in the UKC community...
> the sling in the long configuration with just a biner on the end is still shorter than a normal cam with a sports/short extender on it. Hence it doesn't solve anything!
Just for you Stevo I checked this, and you aren't actually right anyway: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/05/this-posting-is-not-important...
The things I do for my brothers and sisters in the UKC community...
In reply to sam coward: 'if you fall on them the stem wires can get very bent and are difficult to straighten out again.'
Are you still bitter about that Sam?
Are you still bitter about that Sam?
In reply to TobyA: I haven't seen the Pulsar cams in the flesh, so didn't think of them when I said the only giant cams were single stem.
The only comment I have is that I didn't like using an HB size 5 quad cam, biggest double stemmed cam I've used in the past. The stems had a slight tendancy to flex when you pulled hard to retract the cams. I'd be interested to hear from you if that's an issue with the Pulsar cams?
I completely agree that for very big cams getting a 'value' brand is a very good idea. I had an HB Flexi-fix size 6 for several years which was a great bit of gear, slightly heavier but half the price of the equivalent Wild Country Friend.
The only comment I have is that I didn't like using an HB size 5 quad cam, biggest double stemmed cam I've used in the past. The stems had a slight tendancy to flex when you pulled hard to retract the cams. I'd be interested to hear from you if that's an issue with the Pulsar cams?
I completely agree that for very big cams getting a 'value' brand is a very good idea. I had an HB Flexi-fix size 6 for several years which was a great bit of gear, slightly heavier but half the price of the equivalent Wild Country Friend.
In reply to TobyA: PS Cheers for putting the photo of the 4CU online. Very useful.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Never noticed it - hang on - off to cupboard to fish one out and try...
...nope if you have you thumb on the bottom of the unit - you and pull really hard you can get the stems to flex a few degrees but #1 4CU does the same. For some reason if you have your thumb on the cross bar (between the stems) about a cm up from the the bottom of the unit - no flex at all. But anyway - nothing that would do anything in a real world situation.
> The only comment I have is that I didn't like using an HB size 5 quad cam, biggest double stemmed cam I've used in the past. The stems had a slight tendancy to flex when you pulled hard to retract the cams. I'd be interested to hear from you if that's an issue with the Pulsar cams?
Never noticed it - hang on - off to cupboard to fish one out and try...
...nope if you have you thumb on the bottom of the unit - you and pull really hard you can get the stems to flex a few degrees but #1 4CU does the same. For some reason if you have your thumb on the cross bar (between the stems) about a cm up from the the bottom of the unit - no flex at all. But anyway - nothing that would do anything in a real world situation.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I've got a Pulsar 6&7 (I think - the two biggest ones anyhow) for occasional use. Not noticed the stems flexing in this way at all. The units are very wide (big spacer on the axle) which makes them really stable in big cracks and the sort of gear you can have real faith in.
> The stems had a slight tendancy to flex when you pulled hard to retract the cams. I'd be interested to hear from you if that's an issue with the Pulsar cams?
I've got a Pulsar 6&7 (I think - the two biggest ones anyhow) for occasional use. Not noticed the stems flexing in this way at all. The units are very wide (big spacer on the axle) which makes them really stable in big cracks and the sort of gear you can have real faith in.
In reply to quadmyre and TobyA: Always good to get feedback. It was probably just a Quadcam issue as their stems went outside the cams rather than inside as with the Puslars.
Thanks again for the info.
Thanks again for the info.
In reply to TobyA:
"There is a Finnish expression which loosely translated could be "don't try to teach your father to f**k". If you would like to lead that route and show me how you would use the the baggy fist jams at the very back of the overhang without having to push the cam out of the way, I'd be very happy to hold your rope and watch and learn. I'm sure you would do with style and grace."
I suggest you try using a smaller cam much further back in the crack (roughly as far back as your jams) and extending it with a single sling or longer.
In any case even if you didn't have a smaller cam to go further back in the crack it's still clear that with the short amount of extension on the cam it is likely to get twisted about as you climb over it.
Your picture is interesting it hardly matters if it's the same size or slightly shorter, my reasoning was that it's no better than a standard cam with a sports extender. I very rarely extend cams with a sports extender as it leaves them subseptable to being pulled about from either the climber climbing past them or from a piece of gear above the cam being weighted in a fall. I find sports extenders best for sports climbing not trad.
Stevo
"There is a Finnish expression which loosely translated could be "don't try to teach your father to f**k". If you would like to lead that route and show me how you would use the the baggy fist jams at the very back of the overhang without having to push the cam out of the way, I'd be very happy to hold your rope and watch and learn. I'm sure you would do with style and grace."
I suggest you try using a smaller cam much further back in the crack (roughly as far back as your jams) and extending it with a single sling or longer.
In any case even if you didn't have a smaller cam to go further back in the crack it's still clear that with the short amount of extension on the cam it is likely to get twisted about as you climb over it.
Your picture is interesting it hardly matters if it's the same size or slightly shorter, my reasoning was that it's no better than a standard cam with a sports extender. I very rarely extend cams with a sports extender as it leaves them subseptable to being pulled about from either the climber climbing past them or from a piece of gear above the cam being weighted in a fall. I find sports extenders best for sports climbing not trad.
Stevo
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Of course it's better, it means a lighter (and cheaper rack) and it's quicker to place!
I quite frankling can't see it being credible to argue that any more than a minority of cam placements even using WC Friends or similar actually NEED to be extended with a long (20-30cm) extender or a sling.
> my reasoning was that it's no better than a standard cam with a sports extender.
Of course it's better, it means a lighter (and cheaper rack) and it's quicker to place!
I quite frankling can't see it being credible to argue that any more than a minority of cam placements even using WC Friends or similar actually NEED to be extended with a long (20-30cm) extender or a sling.
In reply to CurlyStevo: give the guy a break. he climbed the route, not you. he probalbley wanted to use his knew toys - eh toby ... a cam furth in crack , probable would work, but would be harder to place, remove and increase the thing walking in.... so in the words of Mr Archer,
"don't try to teach your father to f**k".
Toby, this is funniest phase ever can you post the phonetic spelling so i can say it to the finish bloke at school??
"don't try to teach your father to f**k".
Toby, this is funniest phase ever can you post the phonetic spelling so i can say it to the finish bloke at school??
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
its funny how sometimes on UKC someone gets shot down for suggesting they use short extenders for trad climbing and another apparently only a minority of placements need anything longer than a short extender. Perhaps if your climbing a straight crack your right, but I'll still protect placements that can swivle out or in to a poor position (like cams or nuts that are not protected for an outward pull) by using a long extender.
Personally I'll stick to mainly using long extenders for trad.
its funny how sometimes on UKC someone gets shot down for suggesting they use short extenders for trad climbing and another apparently only a minority of placements need anything longer than a short extender. Perhaps if your climbing a straight crack your right, but I'll still protect placements that can swivle out or in to a poor position (like cams or nuts that are not protected for an outward pull) by using a long extender.
Personally I'll stick to mainly using long extenders for trad.
If I went for my larger cams as pulsars, which sizes are actually useful?
Do people spend ages carrying around enormous cams without ever placing them or is it worth it for that one time you need it?
Dan
Do people spend ages carrying around enormous cams without ever placing them or is it worth it for that one time you need it?
Dan
In reply to dleach: where do you climb most?
If the lakes and northwales i wouldn't carry anything bigger than a friend 3.5, maybe a 4 if i it looked like it would be useful.
On grit however on most routes i'd carry a 3.5 and 4 and they'd often get placed.
of your a lakes/wales climbed i'd start off with 3 units, friend sizes 0.5, 1.5, 2.5. and add more when i felt nessessary.
If however i was a grit stone climb i'd begin with friends 1 2 3 and add friend 4 if i thought it was nessessary.
If the lakes and northwales i wouldn't carry anything bigger than a friend 3.5, maybe a 4 if i it looked like it would be useful.
On grit however on most routes i'd carry a 3.5 and 4 and they'd often get placed.
of your a lakes/wales climbed i'd start off with 3 units, friend sizes 0.5, 1.5, 2.5. and add more when i felt nessessary.
If however i was a grit stone climb i'd begin with friends 1 2 3 and add friend 4 if i thought it was nessessary.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Thanks for all the advice (on a route you haven't actually climbed, or indeed for that matter - seen) Stevo. I will treasure it. I'm not too sure how I made it this far without your pearls of wisdom!
> I suggest you try using a smaller cam much further back in the crack (roughly as far back as your jams) and extending it with a single sling or longer.
Thanks for all the advice (on a route you haven't actually climbed, or indeed for that matter - seen) Stevo. I will treasure it. I'm not too sure how I made it this far without your pearls of wisdom!
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
I climb grit almost exclusively and routinely carry a full set from 00 through to 3 WC Tech friends but I tend to favour jamming cracks a lot but wil happily admit that this approach is overkill at times.
I also have a 3.5, 4 and 5 WC tech friends that I can add if required as well and the 3.5 and 4 have both been placed regularly.
I would probably ditch the half sizes if climbing anything other than grit though unless I thought that I would definitely need the gear in question.
bluebrad
I climb grit almost exclusively and routinely carry a full set from 00 through to 3 WC Tech friends but I tend to favour jamming cracks a lot but wil happily admit that this approach is overkill at times.
I also have a 3.5, 4 and 5 WC tech friends that I can add if required as well and the 3.5 and 4 have both been placed regularly.
I would probably ditch the half sizes if climbing anything other than grit though unless I thought that I would definitely need the gear in question.
bluebrad
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Can't remember exactly I'll have to ask my missus when she's around later. Or just ask your mate because you're unlikely to get the pronunciation right without hearing it.
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