UKC

The banter has turned into a bit of a stuck record:

See...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=245500


I know people enjoy winding Al Evans, Gordon Stainforth and myself up - which is why I don't bite any more. (well almost!)

However there are many who probably would enjoy some History on why the "Peak" should be pronounced as such in amongst the trolling.

Step forward Messers Evans, Stainforth and Jacques.

If your unlucky enough not to own Gordons book "The Peak past & Present"

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/eyehill/peak.php

...I'm writing a little peice that covers how the Peak got its name and would appreciate any help from the two Peak stalwarts for advice and contributions if they wish (and of course anyone else for that matter)

I know the Sp's won't stop - neither will the banter and Trolling - but a link will be able to make people understand why the Peak - shouldn't really be bastardised into "The Peaks"

...and maybe we can get Al's BP down in the process!!

Any contributions - email me please through here.

Cheers

Si

(troll away people!! ;0)

In reply to Simon: stop being such a geek. Who cares what it is called. The Peaks (oh sorry the peak) is a brilliant place to climb whatever its called.

In reply to luke1986:


History not your bag then I take it?

I'm a local lad - who has written a bit on the Peak and would like to write something for myself as well as anyone who would like to read it.

Thas all!

;0)

In reply to Simon:

Surely bastardisation is part of an evolving language?

Langdale from long dale - but we don't insist on the origional

Elephant and Castle from Elenor Casteill (that might not be true)

In reply to es:

But work away - i wil find it intresting no doubt

In reply to Simon:

If people insist on the mispronunciation - even after being corrected - it makes them look even more of a dork than when they makes their initial mistake!

Chris

In reply to es:


Aye - otherwise we would all be referring to Stone Edge (Stanage) Huager Tor (Higgar Tor - The Hill of God) Burh Bece (Burbage - Fortification by a stream) & Roo Tor (Rowtor - meaning to rock back and forth) and so on and so forth.

But the Peak / Peaks is a bit different - the bastadisation of the above is simplyfying in my eyes - ..changing "the Peak" to "the Peaks" removes the meaning and significance of the tribe that gave it its name.

Is what is IMHO - anyhoo - see how we go...

si

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Did you mispronounce "dork"? ;0)

I didn't want to say what you said - but of course you are right!!

si

In reply to Simon:

I do genuinely think that anyone who says it should be called The Peak is (probably) wrong.

I have never seen anything from any contributor to this forum that has convinced me otherwise, either in terms of evidence or of linguistics.

Yes, I have enjoyed Gordon's books but there is nothing of any substance to help you decide.

The point I make in this thread:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=245565&v=1#3612908

while flippantly made is about where you get with the evidence.

The earliest reference to The Peak I have found is 12th century and I have not tracked down the primary for that (a reference to Peak Forest).

Beyond this I think you need to decide if you are going back beyond Anglo Saxon or not and that decision seems purely subjective.

Demonstrating that peak is derived from the year dot does nothing for me as the description of The Peak requires knowledge of the usage not just the derivation.

I have checked this friends at Nottingham, Sheffield and Lancaster University archeology departments and TPAT who were unable to shed any further light.

One vaguely possible perspective (certainly no less likely to be fruitful than any other IMHO) may be to try to understand naming conventions from the view of various theories of self-conceptions of prehistoric Identity. Good luck with that of course.

can you do a bit on why Black Rocks isn't Black Rocks but actually Black Rock. :0


im actually serious, geological descriptors say rock not rocks

In reply to Removed User:



errr....think you need to ask that bloke above - he seems to know his onions !! ;0)

Thanks for that Winhill - I've still not walked up you yet!!

I'll include you in the article if ok?

Si

In reply to Simon:

Some observations.
I remember in 1963, when I was about 10 years old in junior school, I, like everyone else had an atlas. On the page with Great Britain on, there was a brown patch in the middle, next to Sheffield, (where I lived and still live). That brown patch was simply labelled 'The Peak'.


Why do I never see anyone kicking up a fuss when people say Birchens Edge?

In reply to es:

You sure langdale isn't the original, and long dale our new way of translating it? Both lang and dale from Old English?

In reply to Simon: To me, saying 'Peaks' is an abbreviation of 'The Peak District'.

Are all abbreviations wrong?

Next we'll all be harangued into only saying Nottinghamshire, Sheffield and The Lake District, rather than Notts, Sheff and The Lakes...

Mingin'

In reply to Simon:


Do you not think it might be a better use of your time to revisit the basics of spelling before moving onto these advanced topics ... ?

In reply to tobyfk: Now now Toby, we can all make the odd tpyo when posting on here, save the pedantry for the article!

In reply to Simon: Thank you Simon, (and Chris etc) all you say is valid, ignore the 'dorks'

In reply to marie:

Peaks is not the abbreviation, Peak is.

In reply to Al Evans:

I guess a lot of people use the same logic as: The Lake District -> Lakes

In reply to tomski3:


If someone were to spell absail and carabina wrong, would they prefer to be told - or continue to have people roll their eyes at their postings?

Same thing!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: But, as Glyn pointed out on the other thread, even the official Peak District website say in reference to the area 'Peak or Peaks'...

In reply to tomski3: Its not the same, The Lakes has Lakes (Ok they are called meres but we know a lake when we see one) The Peak District has no peaks, and in any case even if it did its not why it was called The Peak District unlike The Lake District, please respect its name and read Simon's article when it is published.

In reply to Al Evans: What about the hilly parts of the Peak District?

If it is ok to refer to a mere as a lake, why is it not ok to refer to hill as a peak?

In reply to marie: And as I pointed out, just because they are supposedly 'official' doesn't make it correct, in any case where is this official site that refers to Peaks, it can't possibly 'official' and so wrong.

In reply to marie: Because it was never called The Peak District because of hills or imaginary peaks (unlike The Lake District). Get it right, for gods sake Peak is shorter than peaks, so its even a better abbreviation!!!!

In reply to Al Evans: No, because when you say 'I'm going to the Peak' - it could be anywhere - there are loads of peaks throughout the world.

When I say 'I'm going to the Peaks', people know where I mean.

Whether it is right or wrong, that's how it is (in my experience).

In reply to Al Evans: Sorry, I shouldnt have used that quote as I havent researched it myself to ascertain its accuracy.

(And I havent got time now)

In reply to marie:

The Alps?

In reply to Serpico: Quite, a ridiculous excuse for being plain wrong, The Peak is much more likely to have people knowing where you are going, peaks could be anywhere except The Peak.

In reply to marie:

You're talking an uncharacteristic amount of sense at the moment, Marie. And you're totally correct on your quote:

http://www.peakdistrict-nationalpark.info/faq/index.html#name
However, the area was occupied in the century AD by an Anglo-Saxon tribe called the Peacsaetna - meaning 'dwellers of the peak'. This is thought to be the earliest known naming of the area as the Peak or Peaks.

In reply to Simon:

That have absolutly nothing to do with why peopl call it Peaks, The threads whit titles PEAKS PEAKS PEAKS is to wind at least 1 of the before mentioned up.

The attention needing people make threads about how wrong it is to Call it Peaks.

And no matter how many of those Threads are started telling us we shouldnt call it Peaks, im sure we will continue to do it.
Just as I call at least 2 of before mentioned for Tw*ts when talking about them.

Mokkel
Which can be called whatever you like.

In reply to Mokkel:

Cvnt.

In reply to tobyfk:


The PDNA is being quite economical with the actualite here though.

Firstly Peacsaetna does not necessarily translate as 'dwellers of the peak' - it could just as easily mean 'hill dwellers' so does not mean it is the first reference to The Peak or Peaks at all.

Secondly Hobbes' peom is titled De Mirabilibus Pecci which was first published in Latin then translated in 1678 as 'Being the Wonders of the Peak'.

But the plural context is not clear and the translation could read 'Concerning the Wonder (singular) of the Peaks. Pecci would, you imagine, be a plural.

Perhaps Peak/Peaks was already interchangable by 1626 when Hobbes visited.

An alternative possibility I have just thought of today concerns Hobbes decision to publish in Latin. Aimed perhaps at a European audience not English but also very, very, slightly, perhaps Hobbes is having a bit of a laugh. Hobbes has been perceived as a bit of a sexual obsessive and perhaps (given the flexibility of latin at the time) one could initially read it as 'Concerning the Wonder of Our Sins' - pecci translating as sin/sins/our sins.

This joke obviously being lost if he wrote in English.

Wateva tho as Camden preceeds Hobbes by 20 years. Although it is interesting to note that by 1607 Camden still knows that the original name was Peakland which suggests the Norman 'Peak' didn't take over for a few hundred years maybe.

In fact it may have been seen as a political statement to use the Anglo Saxon rather than the Norman (St Petersburg/Leningrad).

Similarly the Devil's Arse which is recorded in the Doomsday Book as 'Pechesers' or Peak's Arse may not reference The Peak at all. As Puck is a well known Celtic expression for the Devil or his work it is just possible the locals would call it Puck's Arse, William changing it as it may be considered unlucky to live next door to the devil's arse. Again it is perfectly possible it was just some locals having a bit of a laugh at the Normans' expence.