UKC

OK - it has probably always been the case that the Mont Blanc range and the Pennine alps have seen the most traffic because they have the highest mountains and best quality routes with the Bernese alps perhaps next but what about many other areas - they seem rarely discussed here. Apart from a few mentions the Bernina alps rarely figures and I don't see much on the Ortler group or the Zillertal. Has climate change affected these areas so much that they are less attractive or is it that they are just not so popular - perhaps they never were. Anyone with recent experiences in these areas? I haven't been to the alps for many years so am just curious as to current conditions.

Steve

In reply to 4712topo:

Lack of imagination for the most part. If you read the ACJ however you will still find people doing stuff all over the alps, sometimes in quiet areas and sometimes in busy, but unknown to British climbers.

Look at the various national club websites, see where they have huts and you can be sure they are moderately popular or the huts would not be there.

In reply to sutty: Pete Finklaire had a good time in the Julian Alps a few years ago, I've never heard of anyone else going. Was an article in the CC journal as I remember.

In reply to 4712topo: And La Vanoise whilst we're at it, lots of activity there, I think that the lack of an English language guidebook to many of these areas explains the lack of popularity in part.

In reply to Al Evans:

Claude? used to write articles about Julian alps and other off the beat areas in climber many years ago. Kaiser, Karwendel etc were covered for both climbers and walkers.

A look at some old books by Smythe and Lunne ec would point people at other areas popular in the past.

Chamonix and Bernese areas have two reasons, Mont Blanc and the Eiger, honeypots for different reasons.

In reply to sutty:

Claude Davies? He sent me a CD of his and Joe's early explorations on Costa Blanca Rock, must get round to looking at it.

In reply to Al Evans:

That's the one, used to take his family walking in out of the way places.

you should look at that CD, your first ascents may be second ascents.

In reply to 4712topo: Just back from the Bregaglia, we had the place to ourselves! (THough the Sciora cirque was pretty much nowbound and the honeypot routes on the Badile and Gemelli were out. Never saw a Brit car in a week, let alone a Brit climber.

Spent three weeks in the Vanoise a few years ago, similar experience though it's perhaps less truly 'alpine'. There's plenty of topos and info in local bookshops and even tourist offices (imagine Llanberis tourist office supplying topo guides to Cloggy!) if you can use a French/English dictionary and a bit of enterprise!

In reply to MattG:

This is very much true. Actually, it's the proble with 75% of the Western Alps, particularly the Italian side. There are places of tremendous hiking/climbing etc value in Maritimes (Argentera and its environs), Cotians (just think of the Mt. Viso massif!), Southern Graians (Lanzo, Orco, Eastern Vanoise, higher Susa valley etc) with excellent accomodations and a lot of variety, but the documentations is available only in Italian or French.

In reply to MattG:

There have been english guides to the areas I mentioned (West Col - Collomb - late 60's to 80's) but presumably these have not been reprinted.

Steve

In reply to 4712topo:

Interesting question. Indeed UK climbers are quite a rarity in the Eastern Alps (esp. in summer, during the winter ski touring season it may be a little bit different, esp. in areas like Silvretta, Oetztal, Ortles etc.). I guess, this is to some extent due to a 'negative network effect': nobody knows somebody who goes there, so nobody travels to these regions etc. etc. ...

However, the absence of U.K. climbers does not imply that these regions are unpopular. Of course, there are lots of climbers/mountaineers all over the Eastern Alps. They just happen to be from places like Italy, Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Czech R., Hungary etc. But it may be true that severe overcrowding like at some of the most popular routes around Chamonix is less common in the Eastern Alps.

Concerning climate change: yes, some routes have been abandoned or have changed in character. Icy North face stuff is now usually done during spring time, although there are still some routes which may be possible during the right conditions all the year round. Information on ice/firn routes can be found in a recent book, called Firn- und Eisklettern in den Ostalpen (each route with an English summary) by Andreas Jentzsch and Axel Jentzsch-Rabl (www.alpinverlag.at).

I agree that the lack of english literature about these regions contributes to the limited popularity of these regions among UK mountaineers.

Concerning rock climbing, the Eastern Alps offer tremendous possibilities, especially limbstone. Areas like Raetikon (CH/Austria border), Kaiser, Dachstein (limbstone climbing above glaciated terrain), Gesäuse etc. are as frequented and popular as ever (and possibly more so than ever since the popularisation of rock climbing and the bolting of so called plaisir routes).

Of course there are no 'household names' like Mont Blanc, Matterhorn etc. in the Eastern Alps (with the possible exception of Bernina and Dolomites), which may also play a role in reducing the number of climbers from that far away like UK.

In reply to crampon:
I'm cobbling together a walk/climb guide in English for the Vanoise - labour of love really. Will be in the Lower grades - scrambles of 2-3 UK grade, Alpine routes around PD and crags to 5+ along with walks and MTB routes.
Going this summer to suss out some more routes but if you want a prepord copy so far in an electornic format I'm happy to send it to you if you'd be interested in proff reading/giving some ideas?

In reply to andyhodges:


Hello Andy, I'm interested in your Vanoise guide too - could you please get in touch?

In reply to sutty:

Quite possibly
I know Claude quite well, he lived in New Mills when I did, he climbed a lot with Joe, did a few new routes around.
There was a strange incident one day when I was coming home from work on the train from Piccadilly.
This chap in a suit came up to me on the train and said " Hello Al", I peered at him and bloody hell it was Joe, I didn't recognise him in a suit . He was going to stay with Claude, as a mutual friend had died and he was up for the funeral. Certainly livened up the 5.15 that day .

In reply to Al Evans:

You know, I have never seen Joe in a suit, didn't even think about it. Used to see Ronnie Cummerford in one as used to visit the office he worked in, but no other R+I members.

In reply to sutty:

As mentioned the area of Alpes Maritimes has some very nice settings! I did a first visit near a mountain called Corno Stella this weekend and we spent two days there climbing all alone (in perfect weather). For sure a worth a visit if you are interested to climb nice gneiss/granit with a very friendly hut warden.

Ps. 1.15 to walk up to the hut

In reply to chrtur: I first went to the Alpes Maritimes after seeing a book called 'les Alpes du soleil' in a Chamonix bookshop during a long spell of bad weather. We hitched to St Martin du Vesubie & had a great 2 weeks seeing almost no other climbers while climbing several routes. The Alpine Club guide was already out of date then & we had a cheap French guidebook but there is now a newish guide (see Alticoop's website)

In reply to all:

Thanks all for your comments. It seems that some english guides to these areas can be obtained second-hand on amazon or abebooks (authors R G Collomb or A J Thompson for Ortler) and were not reprinted since nothing later appears there. In this case they really would be 'guides' as they haven't been updated and I suspect that conditions have changed rather dramatically over the years. Forgive my ignorance - as I said I haven't been to the alps for a long time. Also, just wondered if the level of climbing has progressed so much that it seems more natural to go to the major areas like Mont Blanc and the Pennine alps where the quality climbs undoubtably are.

Steve

In reply to 4712topo:
>In this case they really would be 'guides' as they haven't been updated and I suspect that conditions have changed rather dramatically over the years. Forgive my ignorance - as I said I haven't been to the alps for a long time. Also, just wondered if the level of climbing has progressed so much that it seems more natural to go to the major areas like Mont Blanc and the Pennine alps where the quality climbs undoubtably are.

Absolutely not! You could climb in "lesser" areas like Marittimes, Southern Graians, Adamello, Julian Alps, Little Dolomites etc for a lifetime, and never feel for one second the urge to rush to Valais or Mt. Blanc, unless a) you really wants to go very high or b) you really want to do a "special" line like some of those you'll find on Mt. Blanc.

It really depends what you want to do - those lesser know areas have the advantage of some real wilderness (like the Sea valley I've mentioned in a past thread), lonely high quality routes, areas of great cultural interest, and even some (poor) area where you may still see some true alpine culture (or what remains of it) and not the kind of travesty you get in Zermatt.

Here are three photo reports taken from local website Lafiocavenmola ("Snow is getting soft"), mainly devoted to climbs in those less popular areas of the western alps.

The "stone labirinth" at the Uja di Mondrone, and incredible hike (NOT a ferrata, despite few cables)

http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/thumbnails.php?album=2516

Punta Collerin (mt. 3475), one of the satellites of the mighty Uja di Ciamarella
http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/thumbnails.php?album=2499

The so called "Lourusa ring" on the Argentera, Marittimes
http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/thumbnails.php?album=638

The wonderful east ridge of Mt. Viso (3842m), one of the most aestetical peaks of the Alps.
http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/thumbnails.php?album=1306

The beautiful Noaschetta valley, Gran Paradiso group
http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/thumbnails.php?album=1705

And this one is taken from Fuorivia.com: Mt. Niblè, mt. 3365, on the Sommellier subgroup of the Cotians.
http://www.fuorivia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13735

I could go on forever!

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Thanks Luca, I was perhaps wondering if the appeal of the many 4000m peaks which are to be found in the more popular areas has anything to do with it. Having climbed in some of the less popular areas I know how nice they can be, perhaps for those new to alpine climbing too but as I commented they seem rarely to figure in posts here. Perhaps it should stay that way since more publicity might not be too good! Lol.

Steve

In reply to 4712topo:

Certainly one of the attractions - people just love the headaches and nausea of high altitude.

Considering that folk can spend an entire climbing career in good old GB, it seems obvious that, as Luca says, you could happily spend your life exploring one or two of the "lesser known" Alpine areas and never get near to running out of things to do. It's a question of imagination and creativity.

Certainly there is a huge lack of information in the English language for many areas (and not that much in other languages in some cases). However, I don't remember ever seeing a guidebook to Ben Nevis in Italian, but I know loads of Italians who have been there and climbed. Most of them, like their British counterparts were taught foreign languages very badly at school, but they took the trouble to do evening courses, some discovering along the way that learning a foreign language opens a huge cultural window for you that can be as interesting as the climbing itself.

Am I wrong to suggest that Anglo Saxons have become lazy and expect everything, now!, on a plate? That they tend to think they have little or nothing to learn from anyone else?

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

Lol, I don't think that figures in many minds when the dreams start to outweigh the reality checks.

>

Very true - perhaps I'm just not seeing the true picture.

>

Guilty - but my poor French would probably get me out of trouble. German or Italian however are complete mysteries still.


Probably true too. Attention span rules all. I'm a believer in apprenticeships and suffering!

Steve

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

I think it is quite simple..... due to the fact that at least 90 % of people climbing would like to be able to tell to others what they have done!? In that sense you can get much more compliments if people know what you have done, i.e. thats why popular areas are just getting more and more popular.

Gavin, I hope you have learned enough italian to exploit the two volumes of Ghiaccio Verticale I just added another four routes in my dreamlist after walking in the Sea valley......

In reply to chrtur:

Unfortunately, yes. (I was exactly the same, years ago. Perhaps I still am, but just a little bit now).

>I hope you have learned enough italian to exploit the two volumes of Ghiaccio Verticale I just added another four routes in my dreamlist after walking in the Sea valley......

Finally we have a decent (not brilliant, but OK) ice climbing guide to the eastern Alps - unfortunately, since it was published conditions have never been particularly good.

And this Sea valley place ... Luca has mentioned it a couple of times. There was an article about rock climbing there in a recent CAI magazine. Beginning to get very tempted - from a winter perspective, that is. "The place in the western Alps closest to a Scottish winter climbing environment" .... mmmm.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

This was something that appeared to me as well (still I have not been there in wintertime). The established ice/mixed routes are quite clear (I just need to convince someone to join me for those routes.....). But, what I wonder if the walls are getting iced up in a good sense for possible mixed climbing, as it is a quite "wet" area there (my impression)? So Luca, what do you say? If it is true, would the locals kill me if I would go there in winter with axes and crampons (even on established rock routes)? Like Ben Nevis style.......I am just curious?

In reply to 4712topo:

Oetztal very enjoyable, classic mountaineering rather than high grade rock.

Wildespitze is the highest peak in the Tyrol. Popular for hut to hut tours .

Wasn't expensive either

In reply to 4712topo:
For years I used to start in the Dolomites and then head west as we acclimatised and got fitter. There were usually a hand full of Brits around Canezi in the Dolomights but after that we would never meet (m)any Brits until we got to somewhere like Saas Fee. There are still plenty of climbers, walkers and via ferrataerers around so those areas are no less popular they are just less fashionable in the UK.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:


It’s a bit of a complex issue. One of the most amazing thing I’ve realized over the years it that I’ve Brits acquaintances who always go exclusively on Mt. Blanc and Valais, and, even more peculiarly, always on just PARTS of Mt. Blanc (the French side) and part of the Valais (Zermatt or Saas Fee or Saas Grund). The idea that there may be anything else seems strange to them.

I agree with Christian that it’s often a matter of “I want to do something people back home will recognize”. There’s nothing really wrong with this, and I can live with the idea you get obsessed with the Hornli ridge at Matterhorn or the Gouter route at Mt. Blanc, but really – the normal route of Eiger? Why in the world anybody would want to climb that, and not, for instance, other beautiful sub 4000 mountains like Bietschorn (one of the most amazing peaks I’ve ever seen), Monviso or the Grivola?

This obsession with the same areas has created some quite strange mentality. Take for instance the whole attitude towards huts. I can understand those who only know the Gouter, Gnifetti or Hornli hut will prefer to bivy outside, but, I mean, has anyone of these people ever been to the bloody Pontese hut? The Daviso? The Bozano? The whole majority of small guarded hut over these “lesser” Alpine areas (and there are hundred of them) are wonderfully managed, the food is great, the sleeping comfortable and the people there nice and helpful. But nobody knows about them, because only locals and few French ever go there.

And again – why people will make the impossible to walk the summer Haute Route, but no-one outside Italy or France knows about the more interesting Via Alpina? Why there legions of English speaking walkers on the Tour de Mt. Blanc but you hear few foreign language speakers (again outside the token French or some lonely German) on the Tour of Gran Paradiso? Why Brits will queue at Cogne but they never hear of Val Varaita, who has more or less the same choice of routes?

In reply to chrtur:

As I've told you today, the least of my problems is taking a walk up Sea



We already discussed part of this today "de visu", but it may be worth to tell the whole story (yes, it's going to be boring, sorry about that)

The story goes as this: these routes were set by (of course) Giancarlo Grassi, like almost 85% of modern ice routes in the Western Alps by that time. By the beginning of the 80’s Giancarlo had gained a substantial experience on Scottish climbing, as he had been going to Ben Nevis several times, together with Gianni Comino, Renato Casarotto and few others. He became “interested” (a.k.a. totally committed – that was Giancarlo!) in finding a place in the Alps that could duplicate the hard winter condition of Scotland. In his almost daily explorations of the most remote mountain corners of the area he “stumbled” into the Albaron di Sea, a large, 950m high wall more or less halfway through the Sea valley. The wall is not visible from any road, so to see it close you’ve to walk all the way for 7 km along Sea, which in winter (particularly if there’s a lot of snow) may take an entire day, even with skis). Giancarlo discovered there four very long “gullies”, more or less similar to those in Scotland (it has to do with the Albaron morphology and Sea microclimate – very wet and cold, one of the coldest of the NW Alps).

The biggest irony is - Giancarlo was so keen on climbing something similar to Scotland winter climbing... but none of these route has seen so far a British climb...


If you mean those enormous walls at the beginning of Sea, there are already modern mixed routes on the R side (Parete di Marmorand, Balma Massiet, Torre di Gandalf etc). Of course there are the traditional icefalls there (Cascata di Balma Massiet, Mostro di Gilgamesh etc - you've a copy of "Ghiaccio dell'Ovest", do you?). And I don’t think Marco Blatto will chase you with a chainsaw if you’ll try anything on the Vallone dei Cacciatori (it’s the very first deep gorge at the beginning of Sea, opposite the Sanctuary). The classic big walls on the L side (Specchio di Iside, Trono di Osiride etc) are another thing, as I’ve never seen any interesting ice being formed there, and I believe someone would have something to say if you leave crampons marks on “Sogno di Sea” or “Titanic”….

Marco (Blatto) told me that there are also probably good chances for mixed climbing above Citadel Ridge and the Cresta del Gallo, the ramparts of the Leitosa. But access there in winter is quite of a big question mark (unless you fly there)

However, the Scottish-like stuff is on the Albaron, another couple of hours upstream… and you’ll have to walk all the way up there. Keep me informed on your movements…

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Thanks Luca. There are not many threads that I save and keep for reference!

Classic Nevis style routes with no British ascent .... talk about throwing down the gauntlet.
Can we expect an invasion of Brits?

I doubt there is anybody over here in Trento who I could convince to drive so far in winter, but I do know an ex-pat living down on the plains who will be very interested.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

Thanks again Luca!

The "Ghiaccio dell'Ovest" I have and I will keep my movements updated. But, for sure not very public during the season, with all the work of walking involved if the conditions are good. That would really qualify for a report when the season is over I suppose......

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

This may be a good thing to put in your bookmarks, loads of stuff then about the alps;
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=34850

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

I don't know, and I'm not sure I would like to see Sea invaded by anyone - it's current status as a more or less pristine wilderness is due basically to the fact that - historically - it's been subjected to disastrous floods (the bridges across the Sea river gets destroyed with some regularity). Otherwise, I believe someone would have already built a road there - something I hope will never happen.

But it would be great to see some interest on Sea by foreign climbers, particularly people competent on winter/mixed climbing (but good rock climbers too would be cool). This would probably show that Sea is a great climbing resource and not just a weird and remote place with plenty of rock everywhere.

I believe however that a caveat is appropiate here: there's no way in heaven or hell to check the conditions on those "scottish" routes on Sea without walking the whole valley, and you can be sorely disappointed. The walk itself is great, but you may have to return several times there.

This brings another warning - I'm firmly in the camp of those who love Sea, but there are others (not many, but still...) who find the place depressing, scary and cold. It's not the sunniest place in the world (actually, is almost always fogg-ish) and you must be really into gothic landscape to truly appreciate it.

Here's a (summer) photo report on what is my favourite climb in the area, the Citadel Ridge, but will give you an idea of the ambient on the lower valley (the higher valley is even more wild-looking)

http://www.gadan.it/07/cittadella/index.html


Well, get in touch with Chrtur, he looks interested too!