UKC

In reply to gourd:

I agree there would be b*gger all either could do if the other fell.

Great photo though.

In reply to gourd:

The way I would play that traverse is to have slightly more rope out, and moderately slack. The idea is that if one slips the other bails over the other side and you dangle either side of the arete. I know of at least four people who have used (in anger) this technique on aretes.

Of course, it depends on certain things - can you get close to the top of the arete without serac danger etc etc. Ah the joys of Alpinism!

In reply to James Jackson:


Interesting. I've always assumed this technique was just an 'urban myth' and that no-one would actually ever do it.

In reply to James Jackson:

I agree, I would have thought that such a short rope would be more dangerous on an arete. A fairly long rope is certainly the norm on Lyskamm (which is similar in character).

In reply to gourd:

Nope! I've been prepared to use it in certain situations but (fortunately) have never had a fall in t'Alps.

In reply to James Jackson:

I've used the longer slacker rope technique on ridges like this where you are prepared to jump the other way. You would need very quick reactions, and the problem is that the leader can't see the second. The second would have to shout a warning, which only leaves split seconds for the leader to look back, assess the situation, he might just have exclaimed at the lovely view, and then react!

In reply to gourd:

Above technique (jumping over t'other side) is viable but usually on easier ground such as scrambling on the ridge/arete itself. When done one person carries a few hand coils of rope for reaction time.

In reply to gourd:


Probably but you the higher climber might, just, hold a slip by the lower climber or, as pointed out, one might be able to jump the other way. Also taking a rope on and off takes a long time so in the interests of speed it might be better to keep it on even if it is of no benefit.

In reply to gourd: Forgive the unfamiliarity with the route, but are the climbers down-climbing this section ('looking back'?) of the ridge? I'm just looking at the way they are concentrating on their foot-placements...

In reply to gourd:

That looks like a guide short roping a client ? standard technique but its been debated on here ad nauseum.

In reply to James Jackson:


Blimey! Do you know a lot of people or just a higher than average proportion of clumsy, accident prone people?

In reply to MG:

Not only this, but it isn't always possible to find a safe place to untie and coil it....

In reply to Tyler:

I know a lot of people who do (have done) a lot of climbing.

In reply to kathrync:

But it only takes a couple of seconds to slip a few coils and reclip an overhand ? And if your travelling together with coils you're on fast easyish ground so stopping shouldn't be an issue ?

In reply to James Jackson:

Seems incredible that 4 of them should have fallen off a ridge like this but heartening to know they survived.

In reply to A9:

That's presuming you are wanting to lengthen the rope and not get rid of it altogether as some people were suggesting above. Agreed, lengthening it should be not problem.

I can however think of plenty of situations where I have been happy to move together or solo but would not want to be faffing around coiling a rope and stowing it.

In reply to nz Cragrat:

Awesome photo. I'm really gutted I didn't get up there last year now...unfortunately everything up on Tacul and Maudit was looking a little suspect while I was there

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that we were able to stretch a 20m rope on this particular section of the Kuffner Arete, with one person at the good stance at the top of the photo (opposite side of the arete and so a good protection point) and the other leading to the good rock pro in the other side of the photo, thus protecting everything well. Other parties pitched in, a 60m rope easily linking good rock pro in between the airy snow sections.

I cannot think of too many situations where I would be comfortable "moving together" if that means two people on a rope for more than around 5 minutes without protection. Better to remove the rope completely, think about getting some pro in, or turn around.

In reply to gourd:

If either of them fell it is POSSIBLE that both might die!
On the other hand - it is easy ground in (what appears to be) good conditions...
Also, the photo just shows the situation - not their experience, background, confidence, competence, rapport, willingness-to-accept-risk etc etc
Maybe they carried out an instant risk assessment - and concluded that, although the consequence of a fall was dire, the risk of falling was small enough to continue through the risky section smoothly and quickly (for that particular pair on that particular day).

I think that, in general, us British people struggle with the dynamic risk assessment process - and the additional factors/risks (not just falling) that are involved when moving up to bigger hills.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that nothing comes for free - if you want to get onto a fabulous alpine arete then you will have to accept that some risk will be involved. How you deal with that risk will depend on your experience and state of mind!

In reply to DesperateDan: Good answer.

In reply to James Jackson:


I remember a case where the bloke in front fell off a ridge, so his mate instinctively hurled himself over the other side.

Then he remembered they weren't roped together.........

In reply to gourd:

Wow that's an amazing pic.. Totally inspiring for someone like me who's never been to the Alps.

Just out of interest (and admittedly off topic), does this ridge continue behind the peak we can see in the picture? From the angle of the photograph, it looks like there isn't much of a place to stand at the top!

I can't quite place it on the Kuffner - is this somewhere right at the start of the route shortly after the bivouac? If it is then in reality it's a lot easier than the photo suggests, if conditions are good, as they seem to be in the photo. We soloed the route after getting the last cable car up and realising that I had forgotten the rope, so that kind of solved the moving together / belaying issue! Re the photo, what we don't know is the relative experience of the climbers. If the leader is considerably more experienced then short roping might be a good idea. If they are equally experienced then I would have gone for more rope to have more time to jump onto the other side of the arete!

In reply to Chris Harris:

Oops.