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Read the thread on Boreal Jokers yesterday. I've had 2 pairs and have climbed E1/E2 on slate and grit slabs and found them fine. A few people didn't rate their stickability, but I think at my technical level its all much of a muchness -
So . . . what kind of rubber do you think is stickiest ?
So . . . what kind of rubber do you think is stickiest ?
In reply to scaredandweak:
Not sure if there is much of a difference between the major brands now. 5:10 stealth when it first came out was ahead of the others but now I think most have caught up.
I think what matters now is the shape of your shoe matching the shape of your foot and being right for the style of climbing you're doing. For example I've got a pair of boots for bouldering, a pair for routes and a pair for indoors.
Not sure if there is much of a difference between the major brands now. 5:10 stealth when it first came out was ahead of the others but now I think most have caught up.
I think what matters now is the shape of your shoe matching the shape of your foot and being right for the style of climbing you're doing. For example I've got a pair of boots for bouldering, a pair for routes and a pair for indoors.
In reply to scaredandweak: From my experience, vibram xs and 5.10 stealth are the stickiest, with vibram being a hair in front.
In reply to scaredandweak:
What rubber do Scarpa use? I've got Scarpa Vantages and have never had any real confidence in the stickiness of the rubber. This may be because they have fairly thick soles though that I struggle to smear with. Or maybe I'm just pants.
What rubber do Scarpa use? I've got Scarpa Vantages and have never had any real confidence in the stickiness of the rubber. This may be because they have fairly thick soles though that I struggle to smear with. Or maybe I'm just pants.
In reply to scaredandweak: I personally think its more about your footwork and technique and the fit of the shoe than the specific rubber... the stickiest I've seen though was the Boreal rubber on my ancient aces (the old black and green ones) which you could stick together and hang one from the other. Didn't make me climb any better though...
In reply to mike kann:
The new boreal fusion stuff is not good at all. If you trust the rubber and know it sticks you'll use you feet better. 5.10 Stealth all the way....
Bruce
The new boreal fusion stuff is not good at all. If you trust the rubber and know it sticks you'll use you feet better. 5.10 Stealth all the way....
Bruce
In reply to Hay: Been fine on E2 slabs for me so far...
In reply to mike kann: I find that sticky rubber wears out too quickly
so I protect it with a nice coat of varnish.
so I protect it with a nice coat of varnish.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I'd agree with that. But the XS is more than a hairsbreath ahead.
I think the slagging that Boreal get is becase some of their models had terrible rubber on them in the past. Thats since been corrected and all of them are much stikier these days.
> (In reply to scaredandweak) From my experience, vibram xs and 5.10 stealth are the stickiest, with vibram being a hair in front.
I'd agree with that. But the XS is more than a hairsbreath ahead.
I think the slagging that Boreal get is becase some of their models had terrible rubber on them in the past. Thats since been corrected and all of them are much stikier these days.
In reply to petellis: To be fair to Boreal the INVENTED sticky rubber. Couldn't find any specific pages but the Boreal Fire was the shoe to have when they first came out. Up until this point EB was wiping the floor with the competition, but they then put all they had into a new injection moulding process, stopped production of the original model and cocked it all up. By the time they realised their mistake they were bust, leaving a gap in the market. Boreal more or less took the style of the EB and invented a super sticky rubber. If you look at early pics of Big Ron and Jerry Moffat they are wearing them... 5.10 came a while after this...
In reply to mike kann: here we go Menatl to think Moffat was on masters edge (I think he was anyway) in a pair of these
http://www.boreal-club.com/Archivos%20comunes/Imagenes/empresa/modelos/mode...
http://www.boreal-club.com/Archivos%20comunes/Imagenes/empresa/modelos/mode...
In reply to mike kann:
> (In reply to petellis) To be fair to Boreal the INVENTED sticky rubber.
No. Yvon Chouinard did this.> Couldn't find any specific pages but the Boreal Fire was the shoe to have when they first came out.
Yes. First proper mass produced sticky boot In reply to mrjonathanr: Sticky rubber, or boiled rubber as is known in Spain, was discovered by spanish climbers who found by chance that boiling tyre rubber they would get much improved performance. This was adopted by Boreal who led the market until the 1990's.
In reply to scaredandweak: I find the stealth rubber really sticky, but just bought a cheap pair of mad rock shoes and they are stickier than a sticky thing.
In reply to martinchick:
Its a type of vibram, I've got a pair of the spectros and they are as sticky as my 5.10s. My first rock boots were a pair of scarpa helixs, not very sticky, but cheap and the longest lasting pair of rock boots I've owned.
Its a type of vibram, I've got a pair of the spectros and they are as sticky as my 5.10s. My first rock boots were a pair of scarpa helixs, not very sticky, but cheap and the longest lasting pair of rock boots I've owned.
In reply to scaredandweak:
top climbers seem to switch between makes of shoes depending on who sponsors them most, so maybe it doesnt matter?
top climbers seem to switch between makes of shoes depending on who sponsors them most, so maybe it doesnt matter?
In reply to James_D: Top climbers have been known to resole their sponsored brand of shoes with their preferred rubber...
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Controversy! I like it.
We need a database of hard ascents, rock type, and which boots were worn.
Controversy! I like it.
We need a database of hard ascents, rock type, and which boots were worn.
In reply to Duncan_S: Thanks. Do the Spectros have the same rubber as the Vantages? Just thought I read it somewhere that the Specros had a newer rubber and because the Vantage marketing speil just says that the Vantage has Scapa's stickiest rubber yet I got a bit confused.
On another note how do you like the Spectros? I know they are good for edging but what's their smearing like?
On another note how do you like the Spectros? I know they are good for edging but what's their smearing like?
I defy 99% of climbers to accurately identify the top four brands of rubber in a double blind test. If the climbing shoe companies hadnt felt the need to turn the black stuff on the bottom of the shoe into as much of a brand as the shoe itself in order to strengthen their market share, no one would ever be bothering with these debates.
According to your average punter, climbing average grades, with average length hair:
Boreal rubber (all formulas) = sh*t
-
-
Vibram, Megabyte, Trax, Mad Rubber Formulas, etc. = some arbitrary place in the middle
-
-
5.10 rubber (all formulas) = best
You will hear this sophisticated and developed argument time and time again. If your shoes fit you properly, you are climbing well and have no complaints then dont let yourself fall into the trap of worrying about which piece of gear is letting you down. In the eyes of many people climbing an E2 slab in Jokers is a physical impossibility, so count yourself lucky that you are already defying the laws of physics and dont give it a second thought.
According to your average punter, climbing average grades, with average length hair:
Boreal rubber (all formulas) = sh*t
-
-
Vibram, Megabyte, Trax, Mad Rubber Formulas, etc. = some arbitrary place in the middle
-
-
5.10 rubber (all formulas) = best
You will hear this sophisticated and developed argument time and time again. If your shoes fit you properly, you are climbing well and have no complaints then dont let yourself fall into the trap of worrying about which piece of gear is letting you down. In the eyes of many people climbing an E2 slab in Jokers is a physical impossibility, so count yourself lucky that you are already defying the laws of physics and dont give it a second thought.
In reply to gabriel_m: Actually, the old Boreal formulas, that is pre-fusion, were amazingly sticky, problem was they lasted 2 climbs.
The 'quest' for durability is what brought them down.
The 'quest' for durability is what brought them down.
In reply to gabriel_m:
Don't you think you're talking a little too much sense there?
> You will hear this sophisticated and developed argument time and time again. If your shoes fit you properly, you are climbing well and have no complaints then dont let yourself fall into the trap of worrying about which piece of gear is letting you down. In the eyes of many people climbing an E2 slab in Jokers is a physical impossibility, so count yourself lucky that you are already defying the laws of physics and dont give it a second thought.
Don't you think you're talking a little too much sense there?
In reply to mike kann:
Youre right, I apologise.
It is impossible to stand on rock in anything other than [insert latest 5.10 rubber name here].
Incidentally, people also forget that when they are buying different shoes it is far more than simply the rubber that is different. In fact, the rubber is probably the least likely part of the shoe to make a difference to your climbing. It is a great demonstration of the emperor's new clothes principle. Sometimes people put down one shoe down as being 'stickier' than another just because it fits better/has a full midsole/has no midsole/they have improved as a climber etc...
Youre right, I apologise.
It is impossible to stand on rock in anything other than [insert latest 5.10 rubber name here].
Incidentally, people also forget that when they are buying different shoes it is far more than simply the rubber that is different. In fact, the rubber is probably the least likely part of the shoe to make a difference to your climbing. It is a great demonstration of the emperor's new clothes principle. Sometimes people put down one shoe down as being 'stickier' than another just because it fits better/has a full midsole/has no midsole/they have improved as a climber etc...
In reply to gabriel_m:
That is very true, but being aware of that, and having had many shoes in my climbing life I can myself say with certainty that some rubbers do make a difference.
If you ever been in a compromised bridging move, or a sloppy foothold, and felt your feet slowly crawling down the hold, when otherwise didn't happen with a different brand, then you'll know that the rubber counts.
> Sometimes people put down one shoe down as being 'stickier' than another just because it fits better/has a full midsole/has no midsole/they have improved as a climber etc...
That is very true, but being aware of that, and having had many shoes in my climbing life I can myself say with certainty that some rubbers do make a difference.
If you ever been in a compromised bridging move, or a sloppy foothold, and felt your feet slowly crawling down the hold, when otherwise didn't happen with a different brand, then you'll know that the rubber counts.
In reply to Mr Lopez: Yep. It counts. But I'd say its the last thing that will make a big difference. Getting a shoe that actually fits right is ten times more helpful, and I'd say its only at the limits of your personal performance that you'll notice the difference a rubber makes. After all people were climbing e1's in Vibram soled walking boots, and E6 in EB's. I can't imagine that the increase in grades over the years is soley (pardon the pun) down to what rubber they use... I'd have thought its has more to do with refined technique, improved strength and specific training regimes, an alteration in the way hard new routes are climbed routinely and only then rubber...
In reply to mike kann:
Thought you only climbed V. diff ;-p
Hows it going dude, long time no see!!
> (In reply to Hay) Been fine on E2 slabs for me so far...
Thought you only climbed V. diff ;-p
Hows it going dude, long time no see!!
In reply to g taylor: Well... you know, seeing you on Bannana wotsitsjob inspired me You been up to much?
In reply to mike kann: It's clear that climbers before were technically more gifted than your average punter now, and we depend too much in the technology, but, route styles have developed around the equipment used, and though a classic climb will not depend that much on the shoes worn, a modern route will.
And let's not forget that the the first V+ was climbed thanks to his self-made shoes by Pierre Alain, known as the PA and the grandfather of the modern rock shoes, using dedicated rubber for the first time; and that in a matter of 8 years from the introduction of sticky rubber, the climbing grade goes from 8a to 9a, with 2 distinctive pushes, one after the introduction of the fire, and another after releasing the Laser.
We obviously don't climb at this level, but when you climb at your limit 'every little helps'. (As you mentioned)
And yes, fit is more important that rubber (usually), but let's imagine we all have good common sense and know that already.
And let's not forget that the the first V+ was climbed thanks to his self-made shoes by Pierre Alain, known as the PA and the grandfather of the modern rock shoes, using dedicated rubber for the first time; and that in a matter of 8 years from the introduction of sticky rubber, the climbing grade goes from 8a to 9a, with 2 distinctive pushes, one after the introduction of the fire, and another after releasing the Laser.
We obviously don't climb at this level, but when you climb at your limit 'every little helps'. (As you mentioned)
And yes, fit is more important that rubber (usually), but let's imagine we all have good common sense and know that already.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
>let's imagine we all have good common sense and know that already.
Its a beautiful world you are painting for me there All I know is that every few weeks this topic comes up, from not people who are climbing at the upper echelon of performance but from people who would do well to pay more attention to technique and the fit of their shoe's... like somebody else says, people blame their gear, when really they should be looking at themselves first - the gear is only as good as the climber! You could put superglue soles on rockboots, but put them on somebody who doesn't know what to do with them and they will still climb badly... still I think we agree on these things actually
>let's imagine we all have good common sense and know that already.
Its a beautiful world you are painting for me there All I know is that every few weeks this topic comes up, from not people who are climbing at the upper echelon of performance but from people who would do well to pay more attention to technique and the fit of their shoe's... like somebody else says, people blame their gear, when really they should be looking at themselves first - the gear is only as good as the climber! You could put superglue soles on rockboots, but put them on somebody who doesn't know what to do with them and they will still climb badly... still I think we agree on these things actually
In reply to mike kann: Very true, very true... People thinking in rubber as the magic charm that will propelled them into the 8's.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Goma cocida.. really? You're wrong. Yvon Chouinard first introduced resin into his rubber mix a few years before the lads at Boreal first got their hands on used aircraft tyre rubber (now think of the investment that goes into THAT technology). They were the first to really make a go of mass producing it on boots and really, none of us has ever looked back.
But as an aside, how often do you think you fall off because it's your boots that aren't up to it?
> (In reply to mrjonathanr) Sticky rubber, or boiled rubber as is known in Spain, was discovered by spanish climbers who found by chance that boiling tyre rubber they would get much improved performance. This was adopted by Boreal who led the market until the 1990's.
Goma cocida.. really? You're wrong. Yvon Chouinard first introduced resin into his rubber mix a few years before the lads at Boreal first got their hands on used aircraft tyre rubber (now think of the investment that goes into THAT technology). They were the first to really make a go of mass producing it on boots and really, none of us has ever looked back.
But as an aside, how often do you think you fall off because it's your boots that aren't up to it?
In reply to martinchick:
Don't know if they have the same rubber as the vantages, but whatever they have, its fine.
They are an awesome edging shoe, but I can smear in them fine. I went in to the shop with a very open mind, tried on lots and they fitted me best.
Don't know if they have the same rubber as the vantages, but whatever they have, its fine.
They are an awesome edging shoe, but I can smear in them fine. I went in to the shop with a very open mind, tried on lots and they fitted me best.
In reply to mrjonathanr: Mmmmmmmh... You might want to rewrite that into: "Yvon Chouinard experimented unsuccessfully with different rubber compounds a few years before Boreal released a 'working' rubber that revolutionised climbing".
Is public domain that all they did was buying tyre rubber and cooking it to change the molecular structure, and that they didn't even discovered that, but learnt it from a group of local climbers.
Still, if you have any links or resources that confirm your theory, which i have to say, never heard before, i'll be happy to look into it.
Do you have any rock shoes with Patagonia or Chouinard rubber on them that you may want to show to us, ignorant folk?
Is public domain that all they did was buying tyre rubber and cooking it to change the molecular structure, and that they didn't even discovered that, but learnt it from a group of local climbers.
Still, if you have any links or resources that confirm your theory, which i have to say, never heard before, i'll be happy to look into it.
Do you have any rock shoes with Patagonia or Chouinard rubber on them that you may want to show to us, ignorant folk?
In reply to scaredandweak:
best compromise....
5.10 - C4
i find the onyx creeps off edges too easily, but makes great smeary boots, was very happy to see C4 on the new V2's
once i had a pair of la sportivas, when worn out put stealth on them....
instantly found they felt better on poor foot holds
in boots however fit is the most important aspect
best compromise....
5.10 - C4
i find the onyx creeps off edges too easily, but makes great smeary boots, was very happy to see C4 on the new V2's
once i had a pair of la sportivas, when worn out put stealth on them....
instantly found they felt better on poor foot holds
in boots however fit is the most important aspect
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