UKC

It has been noticed, by several UKClimbing regulars, that an unknown person - rumored to be a French mountain guide - has chipped several large footholds into the crux of the Cosmiques Arete. The footholds (4-5 in total) are about the size of a client's mountaineering boot and spaced such as to form an easy to climb ladder.

With this and the large metal spike, itself having an easy to grab sling loop attached, there is no reason anymore to even touch the beautiful finger crack that was previously in use for this part of the climb.

In any case, if one were to want to "rectify" the situation, one could obviously cut the metal spike with a hack saw. However, how could one "fix" the steps? Ideas such as chipping out the bottom of the holds have been rejected in the "two wrongs don't make a right" category. Worry has been expressed that common epoxy to "seal" the damage could crack and fall out in the low temperatures, and anyway would be easy to remove by the same chipping crew.

Another idea, to spray paint a large red ladder into the cliff side, has been deemed potentially funny but in itself violation of the "leave no trace" ethic.

Discuss.

In reply to John Blab:

there are many far better routes in the alps to worry about.

if you're only prepared to go a few hundred metres for the telebine you can't complain about the route's lack of quality, traffic or any alterations that have occurred IMO.

In reply to John Blab:
Concrete, perhaps formulated specially to match the rock colour and texture?

In reply to John Blab:

Set up a rifle on the viewing platform, and allow tourists to take shots at the clients.

In reply to andrew sandercock:


What utter bilge!

In reply to John Blab: some sort of filler glue might work.

In reply to John Blab:

Did Mr Polyfiller not go up to do it on Sunday?

Grind the whole face back to the depth of the steps?

In reply to andrew sandercock: What rubbish! Does the same apply to any crag that happens to be close to the road/cable car?

In reply to John Blab: which utter twazzock has done that?

jeez, you don't even need the sling for that move.

i'm even surprised that there wasn't enough traffic to notice whoever was doing this and push them down the cliff.

In reply to Aly:

i'm not excusing the chipping and i enjoyed doing the route myself but its like any easy access, low grade, popular routes - they get buggered over time; from polish to holds falling off.

i mean how many people have worn crampons from start to finish on the route when they're very much not required - that's doing a fairly big bit of damage but no ones getting scorned for that.

In reply to andrew sandercock:

I think that's because continually taking crampons off & putting them back on again would consume a lot of time and lead to even bigger queues than there are now!

Fair enough, normal wear and tear to a route is fine, but NOT deliberate damage like chipped holds!

In reply to Alex Roddie:

i can't say for any other people but when i did it the snow was crap and slushy and i still managed to do it without needing to put my poons on - and i'm hardly an elite alpinist (quite the opposite if i'm honest).

its sad that a good route has been chipped but you've got to naive to think it wouldn't get buggered over time.

In reply to John Blab:


Surely any fix is pointless, if someone willing to chip it wants chips then they'll re-appear either in place of the 'fix' or just to the side of it.

Suitable adhesives exist if you look through 3M's/Wests data sheets (and have the £££).

jk

In reply to andrew sandercock:

Fair enough, good point that if the snow is slushy you might not need crampons at all.

In reply to John Blab:

also, the snow sections are so short why couldn't people just cut steps?

In reply to andrew sandercock:
I agree but you'd be surprised at how many people don't know about cutting steps!

In reply to andrew sandercock: No I think you've got to be Naive to think that this won't start to occur in other places once a precident is set. Granite weathered by snow and ice (unless under a glacier) doesn't tend to get polished much. And as for it being a popular route, how does that make it any more acceptable? If it was a french guide, this is an extreme example of what is totally wrong with the french guiding system...

In reply to andrew sandercock:

100% agree.... along with the Petite Aiguille Verte this must be the most overdone climb in the Alps!

In reply to Bruce Hooker: How does this make it in anyway acceptable though? Stanage is one of the most overdone cliffs in the UK. Should we chip it?

In reply to John Blab:
>.......violation of the "leave no trace" ethic.

I can't be the only one who has noticed that the route also has a telephrique station on it. Isn’t that infinitely worse?

In reply to mike kann:

No but this isn't the first time someone has posted about drilling on this route, it was a hoax last time... Compared to the mass bolting of routes all over the Alps it seems a drop in the ocean to me... it has hardly spoilt a major climb! If it's true as scooping large foothold out of granite can't have been a five minute operation. Can anyone confirm that it's even true?

In reply to John Blab:

Anybody have any idea when the chipping occurred?

I climbed it this time last year and just remember a knotted sling and peg being in-situ? I thought that was enough, no need to go chipping bloody holes in the thing.

They must have got so pissed off with the queues, can't belive it's come to this!

In reply to mike kann:
Not condoneing what has been done, but isn't it up to the locals to deal with this - maybe it has been done with their approval?

Would you approve of Brits going to the Dollies and ripping out the Via Ferratas ? Or Yanks coming over here and ripping the bolts out of Malham ?

OK slightly differant, but just remember the french have no ethics.....

In reply to John Blab: while i disagree with chipping, i don't think its really our place as brits to impress our ethics upon the french in their mountains, how would we react if they came over here and did what they saw as right in our mountains.

In reply to John Blab:

Oh get over it.

Its in france, its a super-punter route they take anybody that wants "a go" at mountaineering on and i expect you can still do the crack line if you wish. There are far worse things to worry about.

At the end of the day its likely to do everybody a favour becase it will reduce the horrendous queues.

I do think the ladder would be very funny!

In reply to Chris the Tall: What I object to is that this has (if its true) has been done by people for purely commercial reasons when there is a perfectly good solution already available. Furthermore its been done by people who absolutely should know better and should be setting an example for the future generation. If this really IS the status quo and its really what the locals want and its been decided to do this then fair cop but I rather suspects its not. As for impossing ethics, surely in an area which is used by millions of people from all sorts of different climbing backgrounds some consideration should be given to those visiting climbers? I understand the viewpoint that Bruce expresses that it is on a small scale comparedto the whole sale bolting which occurs, but I consider that an even bigger mistake. I was glad to see that some debolting has occured in the Ecrins, providing more "american" style trad lines in Ailefroide.I hope that this trend spreads.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Can anyone confirm that it's even true?

IT IS TRUE.

I posted about this last October and it didn't get much reaction which would lead me to think that it happened at some point around the end of last season.

It is a shame, but the route is what it is and despite being scorned by many, I think that it isn't too bad! It's only a couple of moves that aren't great (I always struggle over this bit on lead or seconding) and much better climbing follows after th crack.

Let's all move on and stop being so British.

In reply to mike kann:
Definitely true! The 'chipping' is in the form of slots just big enough to fit a crampon / boot into. I assumed it was done to allow 'clients' to climb this small rock section with more ease whilst holding onto the great big ignorant looking metal hoop and sling hammered into the face.....Still saw people struggling on it though!!
You can ignore it and climb the crack or divert to the left before this section and make progress up a pillar...it is what it is, every other climb is bolted out there...

In reply to madmo2991:

for starters, the OP isn't british and secondly, i don't really give a fck about who's mountain it is "local" to. chipping is chipping is chipping. there's a time and a place for relativism.

how many generations do you have to live somewhere not to be a local anyway?

In reply to featuresforfeet:

no, for some reason i had a headache and a sense of shame. though probably not as bad as some others.

i do intend to go and fix it as soon as i find a suitable mix of granite and epoxy though.

The two or three small chips were already there in August 2007. I spoke to a French guide about it and he said that there had been quite a bit of controversy about it among local guides. There were three camps - outraged, indifferent and supportive. Sounds like UKC is a bit different in that no one is supportive (I certainly am not), British ethics and all that...

In reply to Misha:

Perhaps because it's such a beginner's trade route? The normal route on the Dent de Géant has enormous 4" circ. hawsers all up the main part, and chipping steps on the paths to huts is commonplace... I wouldn't do it myself but it is only a training climb.

By the sound of it these are the same small holes as mentioned before, not boot sized steps as the OP said... I don't think this is a serious as the systematic bolting of lowland crags and the disgusting use of chalk at Fontainebleau, which seems to be approved by many ukc posters... To me these are a much more serious ethical and practical problems than this bit of silly vandalism.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


That I totally agree with...

>and the disgusting use of chalk at Fontainebleau, which seems to be approved by many ukc posters...

Are you advocating Pof? I don't see how that is any better...

>To me these are a much more serious ethical and practical problems than this bit of silly vandalism.

I remember when I was a kiddy and just starting climbing my mum bought me a very late edition of Mountain in which there was a piece by Mr Wilson about the thin edge of wedge and the appearance of bolts in the mountains, and he predicted that it would spread like wildfire if accepted. I used to be highly sceptical about bolt proliferation until the bolting of Cheddar started in a major way a few years ago. In some ways I think it has regenerated the place and in others its destroying what the place used to be all about, namely adventure. I know the alps and cheddar are on somewhat different scales, but I really do feel that if this sort of chipping becomes acceptable on easy mountain routes which are frequently used by guides, people will begin to think that this sort of tactic can be used elsewhere. That there are already chains and ropes all over the place on high mountain routes is just as bad - if you're not good enough go away and GET good enough... I'm surprised by your acceptance considering your viewpoint on bolting and the use of chalk which after all does wash off...

Ahh what a nice little thread I started!


No, they are large chipped footholds, just the right size for a mountaineering boot and I guess 2-3 cm deep.

Will write more later but want to let the debate stew a bit more first.

In reply to mike kann:


No... I don't see any logical connection between being fed up with chalk and advocating something else! Is there one? Do you think being against chalk means I am in favour of squashing bananas on holds and letting them dry in the sun to get extra traction? (PS. I'm not, by the way.

I agree with the COSIROC position, avoid pof or chalk... although these days chalk (ab)use is the obvious problem.

Concerning the chipping, I'm not in favour of it at all, but I just don't think there's much point in getting all excited... it's pretty much a one off thing and as far as I know no one is advocating doing this sort of thing as a standard method... whereas bolting, alas, it's quite the opposite... and the worst culprits are not guides but the bright young things who think "sports climbing" is really neat... see the current thread about Pen Trwyn, or any of the numerous similar bits of incitement to big scale vandalism that we read all the time on these forums and elsewhere... all encouraged by rampant commercialism, climbing wall owners and denizens (the real villains of the piece) and the various twits who seem to spend their time idolising "Fred Muggins who's just pink pointed a new 9a" somewhere or other.

In reply to Misha:


It must be said, however, that the instigators of the chipping weren't the guides, and that most of the French guides I know are totally against this kind of stuff (as they're against bolting cracks or fixing ropes on classic itineraries)

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

I think it is something of a British climber's tradition to blame all evil on guides, especially French ones As you say the majority of them are probably no less ethical than anyone else. It's a pity in a way as local guides represent a fund of knowledge and tradition that it would be a pity to lose - the breaking of the monopolies of guide's corporations was a pity in my opinion as ultimately it may lead to this... a plethora of "guides" from wide backgrounds may lead to the loss of ethical traditions rather than the opposite.

Who is reckoned to be responsible for this chipping? It must have taken a while so it seems unlikely to have been done by an individual who found the step a little testing

In reply to John Blab: must have been made bigger recently then? as I was up there in august and they wernt that obvious or big, or I really wasnt paying attention, anyway you didnt need them then you could still climb it without. What got my tits up more was the american direct on the petit dru having a f*cking bolt every 3 meters on a climb that can easily be protected by natural gear the whole way.

In reply to John Blab: Let's be blunt: this is a disgrace, as are all the fixed aids that ruin what would otherwise be magnificent routes on popular mountains. Imagine the Eiger's Mitellegi Ridge or the Dent de Geant without the disfigurement of the huge iron spikes and school gym ropes that festoon them: they would be restored as great mountaineering ex[periences. The partial demolition of the Cosmiques is not exactly the thin end of the wedge: no expects it to be followed by a flood of similar desecrations. But each time something like this happens, it tends to be irreversible, and it represents a loss to present and future generations.

It doesn't only happen in the "haute montagne". I remember climing the Verdon's La Demande in 1987 when it had no fixed gear at all bar the odd peg. It was a great and memorable day. Apparently now it's bolted from bottom to top. Is there any collective action climbers can take to stop such outrages? Probably not. Soon enough increased costs and and fears for the planet may well make travel to distant ranges in search of adventure no longer easily possible. Then we all will come to regret its removal from the mountains of Europe.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: A lot of French people do - I thought your brain had completed the trasition to frenchie for a second Fair enough, chalk is unsightly when left to fester...

As for bolting being for the young things I'm not so sure - there are plenty of the older generation out bolting here in the UK...

In reply to mike kann:


They should know better then... It's sad to see some older people who take to cheating when they are no longer up to doing things for real (in various domains, viagra rules) instead of just accepting their physical decline (inevitable)... so pathetic to see them combine it with a moral decline too (quite evitable)

Poor old sods!

Luca, just curious who did it, if it wasn't a guide? I can't imagine anybody else taking the effort to drill and chop steps for any other reason than to haul clients up quicker.

Of course this is an overcrowded beginner route that admittedly has Heinekin on tap at a bar at the summit, so if somebody destroys part of it it's not a great loss. But my concern is that it could set a bad precedent for other heavy traffic routes that we all might find closer to our hearts.

I believe nearly 100% of the non-guide climbers in Chamonix, both French and non-French, would oppose chipping on this or any other high alpine route. I feel, as an official tax paying resident of Chamonix since 2004, I have the right to complain when a small part of the community (a few guides getting bored of queues and trying to find a way to haul up their slow, badly prepared clients up) are taking actions opposed by the vast majority of others.

I might just pop down to ENSA tomorrow to get their word on the matter and lodge a complaint, if I'm bored enough and there's a lull in work. Will keep people posted in that case.

In reply to John Blab:

I disagree strenuously. The Cosmiques may be overcrowded and cliched, and there may be a complex of buildings at the summit, but what of it? It is a fine line and many people enjoy climbing it.

If people chipped steps along Crib Goch there would be an outcry, yet Snowdon is almost as heavily developed as the Midi is.

My view is that our task is to conserve the mountains for future generations. We have no right to cause unnecessary damage that will affect the enjoyment of countless climbers in the future.


Agreed.

In reply to John Blab:

Damn, I used the crampon point chipped bits when I did the route on my tod last month.. guess that invalidates the solo. In fact double damn, I used the fixed ropes on the Hornli too.. guess that invalidates that one too. And damn again, I pulled on and clipped everything I could find on el cap, guess that inval...

..ok I'll shut up.

Does use of cable car invalidate routes? I once walked down from the Plan to ease my conscience. It worked!

As long as it's good fun I don't care what the French do to their mountains. I hate pompous hill ethic bollocks like ' blah blah mountain rescue people shouldn't be rescued if it's their incompetence to blame blaah. ' Just go out and have fun. I love the cosmiques, especially the heineken on tap and the 2 minute approach. It can absorb a few chisel marks.

In reply to Alex Roddie: The bottom line is it's french rock and they can do what they like. I don't think Brits should do anything. I wasn't a huge fan of the Cham area, too developed. I feel far more 'away from it all' in some parts of Snowdonia than I did on many parts I saw around there as it was so developed. Still the idea to build something like the midi is pretty impressive.

In reply to IainRUK: I thought that was the whole point of the EU.... they regulate the curvature of our bannana and we take control of the important things like whether they get to chip chunks out of their mountains

In reply to John Blab:

I didn't say that it wasn't a guide who did it, I said that it was not specifically instigated by guides or by the guides need to take people up the Hamster Wheel... aehm, the Cosmiques Ridge. I don't want to be too specific, but let's say that some people consider that place their property, even if its not.

I repeat (and some of the guides who post here may confirm this): the majority of the local guides weren't exactly thrilled, and are against such kind of idiocy. This said, and as someone else remarked, other act of "controlled" vandalism in the area where much worse - see the Dru Am-Dir bolts

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Arrigo Gallizio, the current president of the Courmayeur guides (and, incidentally, one of Italy top car designers) once told me that problems began when guides have stopped being the wardens of their mountains, and switched on being just a sort of cross between a sport trainer and a cab driver, completely detached from the territory. I can't agree more on that - a guide who's divorced from the area he takes people on climbing will do nothing to prevent the area itself becoming just a pile of rock where people do some kind of weird gymnastic. And I want all the luck to Arrigo with his plan to reverse this trend, even if I'm not optimistic.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

I think that theory makes a lot of sense, Luca. Out of interest, when do you think this change took place? I remember Lord Conway and others (Leslie Stephen for example) complaining about this sort of thing at the turn of the old century; they put forth the notion that the second generation of guides no longer cared for their mountains as the guides of the 'glaciers and passes' generation did, and that the new guides were too obsessed with hauling their clients up mountains to a specific schedule. There were also widespread concerns that guides had become even less competent on average.

In reply to davidoldfart:

Dent du Geant is a bit of a special case. The Dent was originally climbed "not by fair means", as hooks and spikes where used. The scope of the FA was deliberately to set a route for tourists, period (and to climb the Dent for prestige reasons - after all, it was late XIX century!). And no local guide was involved (the FA party was composed by a quartet of guys of the Sella family - same as the uber mountain photographer Vittorio Sella! - and a trio of guides from Valtournanche.

Ropes on the Dent du Geant were never considered "ok" in Italian climbing circles, and call for a removal had resurfaced again and again in the last 100 years. However, they've been left there mainly because they're now taken for granted, even if they're clumsy and frankly more an hindrance than a real help. The reverse of the coin is that no other climb on this side of the MB has been fixed that way, at least so far (and, apart from some hut access, it's unlikely it will ever be)

In reply to Alex Roddie:
>

It's a rather recent development, actually. Until the 1930 guides in the Alps were not only the backbone of the climbing community in Continental circles, but also on the forefront of the sport development. Widespread diffusion of climbing as a "popular" sport in the '30 - like it or not, something in many ways related to the rise of fascism in Italy and Germany!, plus the birth of mass tourism (which exploded after the WWII, but started to get noticeable well before) made local guides more and more marginal, except in areas like the Dolomites, where they kept evolving technically and maintained a strong "grip" on what was happening locally.

The profession went into a long decline at least until the mid 70's - I remember Luciano Ghigo (Bonatti's companion on the Gran Capucin) telling me circa 1975 that it was a category destined to disappear soon. It survived into the next decade because there was a generation change, and new guides, instead of fighting change, enthusiastically adopted it, particularly in Chamonix and in Switzerland. The price of this was the above mentioned "detachment" from the territory - the scope has become maximizing the "productivity" bringing people with money but not enough time on short, relatively non serious, and "rewarding" climbs. The explosion of "plaisir" routes in the Alps has more to do with this than anything else.

In reply to John Blab:

Interesting thread..

In reply to John Blab: maybe it was some good samaritan trying to make the existing drillings more natural looking ?
http://www.summitpost.org/route/155970/cosmiques-ridge.html (photos 1&2)

In reply to John Blab:

Spreading unsubstantiated rumours and tarring a certain group of people can only help create bad feeling. Predictably some other posters (but not all) have picked up on your prejudice and developed it. The holds may well have been chipped by a guide, perhaps even a French guide, but I can assure you that 99% of local guides strongly condemn the chipping. That should be made clear. In the Chamonix valley nobody seems to know who is responsible. It appears to have been the work of a 'lone ranger'.

The fact that you think ENSA has the authority to act in this matter shows how little understanding you have of the French guiding system - not a problem in itself but if you are going to go on a crusade you should do so in an informed way.

I was mildly appalled by the chipping myself although, ironically, it has actually made the climb better in my opinion! Even more ironically there are quite a few bigger holds on the climb that have been created by the repeated use of crampons. Maybe we should all just stop climbing and stay at home.

In reply to Tobias at Home: so in the unlikely event that the french came and chopped our bolted crags or bulldozed the CIC hut you wouldn't feel too agrieved?

we're fortunate enough in britain to have a very ethical climbing ethos, but we're not the world police, whether we're invading afghanistan or filling in chipped holds in france, its not our place to be doing so.

In reply to madmo2991:

But the permanent population of Chamonix is around 50% non-French from what I heard. Toby and I are both official residents of here, as are likely a few others on this thread. Although I agree taking action would perhaps be rash, does that not give us a say in what goes on?

In reply to nb:

Cool down. The "rumour" I spread is that a guide chipped the holds. Nobody has disputed that fact. I am happy the majority of guides do not condone it. If that is true I hope the person in question has gotten a lot of grief over it and it will not be repeated.

As for guides in general, it is not my intent to draw any generalizations. Although having said that, maybe you should inform your guiding friends that when they wear their guiding pins at restraunts and bars around town, we don't think they look hardcore, we think they look full of themselves.


I simply said I wanted to drop by and ask what they thought. As a place a lot of guides seem to hang out, that seems a reasonable thing to do, no?


How has chipping made this climb better exactly??

In reply to John Blab: This has been an interesting thread, and I must say the statement that the chipped holds have improved the route has had a big effect on me. I see now that we old farts have been wrong all along, and the time has come to embrace change.

But why stop at the Cosmiques? Wouldn't it be great to chip - and where necessary, equip - big, harder classics? For example: if the Walker Spur coud be made both safer and easier, more people could enjoy it, and the rescue service would be needed less often. Here lots of bolts (6-700, say?) and chipped holds might not be enough - to add a few sections of via ferrata ladders and stanchions would speed patrons on their way and make it less likely anyone would fall off.

And to those who say it would spoil the route, I'd like to point out that a great line will always be a great line. From the Couvercle Hut, no one would notice the difference, even with binoculars.

In reply to 35yroldheid:

I seem to recall using the rope in the tower gap, well now that it’s all in the open I feel much better…

I climbed Cosmiques arete in May this year and can not recall the gigantean buckets steps hacked into the aforementioned pitch, but then again it was covered in snow at the time. The beauty of the mountains, they will change… If people are concerned about some chipping then they should be outraged at the other appurtenances that festoon this mountain, just some minor ones like cablecar, huts and the handy placed in-situ bolts for awkward, slanty chimney abseil thing along the route. And the occasional pitons! Cosmiques like a few other routes in the Alps is a little unique, a fantastic opportunity for people to experience alpine climbing, be it, guided parties, seasoned alpinist acclimatising or aspirants on there first outing… Chipped steps, followed by a rust ladder, okay I don’t like the idea of chipping steps, but I can go else where if I wish, although I did enjoy the attention of the tourists snapping away, and then that very smiley American girl, memories… Back in May it was empty. I’m getting old.

In reply to Jamie Simpson - Alpine Dragons: and then that very smiley American girl

You sure she wasn't laughing at you?

In reply to davidoldfart:

nope, she was very forward...

In reply to Alex Roddie:
Or even just an outer layer that matches the rock.

In reply to robdan: and hmm in my photo not sure how much that fella is getting pulled up or climbing up...

In reply to robdan: In situ sling or pulling on gear??

In reply to robdan:

Doesn't matter, it's the Alps!

I was there though in June 07 and footholds were chipped. Although they were larger a year later, I'm not sure if that's through use or a drill?

In reply to BOOGA: I don't know but it looks like he is pulling on a sling with one hand.

In reply to douglas: fair point, haven't been on the route since 2006, certainly gets the traffic to get wear and tear.