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I am torn about using a half rope on routes like the PD NNE ridge of Mt Collon - have seen Swiss around with 50/60m 9mm dry half ropes and using them as singles on glacier travel and when moving together, using running belays. Obviously 9mm over an edge on a huge fall is a bad idea, but all the websites seem to say 'ok to use a half rope like in the same way as the swiss if you want to travel light (who doesn't?) and move fast. Some websites say 'use once and discard if you have a big fall' - others say 'just don't do this' - others say 'it's fine and becoming more accepted'. I'm struggling with this an don't want to take wanton risks - any views?
In reply to timO:
Buy a really thin single rope?
I've done it on easy ground on the past with running belays (Tower Ridge for example). It just depends how confident you are that you won't fall off. Obviously it's better than not having a rope, but not as good as using a single rope. It's entirely a judgement call really; something you have to decidfe for yourself. Anybody who categorically tells you it's either right or wrong is either ignorant or dangerous.
Buy a really thin single rope?
I've done it on easy ground on the past with running belays (Tower Ridge for example). It just depends how confident you are that you won't fall off. Obviously it's better than not having a rope, but not as good as using a single rope. It's entirely a judgement call really; something you have to decidfe for yourself. Anybody who categorically tells you it's either right or wrong is either ignorant or dangerous.
1
In reply to timO:
Personally i wouldnt risk it,especially if you weigh more than about 55kg, the ratings for half ropes arent as highly rated as for single ropes. I think its single ropes they test with a 80kg weight, but half ropes only with 55kg becasue each rope takes some of the weight in a fall.
People have died using half ropes on long routes from just falling a few metre.
And you if you want an all round rope that you can use as halfs(and doubles) but also safely as single why not get the beal joker....
http://www.towerridge.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_i...
Personally i wouldnt risk it,especially if you weigh more than about 55kg, the ratings for half ropes arent as highly rated as for single ropes. I think its single ropes they test with a 80kg weight, but half ropes only with 55kg becasue each rope takes some of the weight in a fall.
People have died using half ropes on long routes from just falling a few metre.
And you if you want an all round rope that you can use as halfs(and doubles) but also safely as single why not get the beal joker....
http://www.towerridge.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_i...
In reply to Kate Edhouse:
I think we might be confusing half and twin ropes. most of the time with half ropes, only one of the ropes takes all the load of the fall - usually only clip one rope into each runner right?
the terrain people are talking about is unlikely to generate factor 2 falls and the biggest risk of failure is the rope going over an edge i would guess. whether or not you want to risk that with a thinner rope is up to you. i'd suggest just getting a bit fitter and carrying a single though...
> (In reply to timO)
>
> Personally i wouldnt risk it,especially if you weigh more than about 55kg, the ratings for half ropes arent as highly rated as for single ropes. I think its single ropes they test with a 80kg weight, but half ropes only with 55kg becasue each rope takes some of the weight in a fall.
> People have died using half ropes on long routes from just falling a few metre.
>
> Personally i wouldnt risk it,especially if you weigh more than about 55kg, the ratings for half ropes arent as highly rated as for single ropes. I think its single ropes they test with a 80kg weight, but half ropes only with 55kg becasue each rope takes some of the weight in a fall.
> People have died using half ropes on long routes from just falling a few metre.
I think we might be confusing half and twin ropes. most of the time with half ropes, only one of the ropes takes all the load of the fall - usually only clip one rope into each runner right?
the terrain people are talking about is unlikely to generate factor 2 falls and the biggest risk of failure is the rope going over an edge i would guess. whether or not you want to risk that with a thinner rope is up to you. i'd suggest just getting a bit fitter and carrying a single though...
In reply to Kate Edhouse:
I thought that was for factor 2 falls. If a true factor 2 is on the cards you're not going to be climbing on one half rope.
Really? An undamaged rope snapped just under the climber's weight?
Frankly, if it feels right do it. You're very unlikely to break the rope unless you grind it along a sharp edge. It won't last as long as your single rope though and it will be easier to damage, so bear that in mind. If the extra wear and tear on the half, and the added risk that you may be climbing on a damaged rope at the end of the day, is worth the weight saving then go for it; just remember what you're using and assess everything in light of that.
I've used a half for easy alpine routes and glacier travel before. Clearly it got stepped on by one of us because we had to bin the rope mid-season.
> Personally i wouldnt risk it,especially if you weigh more than about 55kg, the ratings for half ropes arent as highly rated as for single ropes. I think its single ropes they test with a 80kg weight, but half ropes only with 55kg becasue each rope takes some of the weight in a fall.
I thought that was for factor 2 falls. If a true factor 2 is on the cards you're not going to be climbing on one half rope.
> People have died using half ropes on long routes from just falling a few metre.
Really? An undamaged rope snapped just under the climber's weight?
Frankly, if it feels right do it. You're very unlikely to break the rope unless you grind it along a sharp edge. It won't last as long as your single rope though and it will be easier to damage, so bear that in mind. If the extra wear and tear on the half, and the added risk that you may be climbing on a damaged rope at the end of the day, is worth the weight saving then go for it; just remember what you're using and assess everything in light of that.
I've used a half for easy alpine routes and glacier travel before. Clearly it got stepped on by one of us because we had to bin the rope mid-season.
In reply to timO:
A half rope is perfectly capable of taking any fall you are likely to suffer - the only down sides are a) the thinner rope is slightly more likely to be fatally damaged by e.g rock fall and b) it will take fewer falls before losing some of its elasticity. Personally its what I'd use.
A half rope is perfectly capable of taking any fall you are likely to suffer - the only down sides are a) the thinner rope is slightly more likely to be fatally damaged by e.g rock fall and b) it will take fewer falls before losing some of its elasticity. Personally its what I'd use.
In reply to timO:
Take your 60m 1/2 & use it doubled. Even when tied in there's still plenty of rope between 2 climbers for all but the largest of steps. Surely the guys you saw weren't using the full length as a single when moving together, communication would be almost impossible at times?
Take your 60m 1/2 & use it doubled. Even when tied in there's still plenty of rope between 2 climbers for all but the largest of steps. Surely the guys you saw weren't using the full length as a single when moving together, communication would be almost impossible at times?
In reply to timO:
I have used a half rope on the Cosmeques and the Cullins.
At the time I thought I was making a calculated decision on rope weight and my climbing ability but did I make a good calculated decision or not?
I'd really like to know either way so that if I was taking too great a risk then I won't do it again.
I have used a half rope on the Cosmeques and the Cullins.
At the time I thought I was making a calculated decision on rope weight and my climbing ability but did I make a good calculated decision or not?
I'd really like to know either way so that if I was taking too great a risk then I won't do it again.
In reply to timO: The decision we came to was that half rope was ok for glacier travel/crevasse rescue stuff as it was unlikely rope the would become abraded by rock, which we felt was the only real risk of it breaking. We also believe that, for a pair travelling together, knots on the rope are the way to stop a fall into a crevasse.
For moving together on a ridge we devised a system of quickly doubling the half rope by passing the leader coils back to the second with the leader using a non-screw type locking karabiner to 'tie' into a figure 8 on the bight, at the mid point of the loop of rope between us. We feel this system, if you are happy with introducing a karabiner, provides as much security as a pretty chunky single. We used a 60m Beale Cobra 8.5(?)mm half rope.
We decided we weren't happy with using a half rope as we would a single, unless it was doubled.
For moving together on a ridge we devised a system of quickly doubling the half rope by passing the leader coils back to the second with the leader using a non-screw type locking karabiner to 'tie' into a figure 8 on the bight, at the mid point of the loop of rope between us. We feel this system, if you are happy with introducing a karabiner, provides as much security as a pretty chunky single. We used a 60m Beale Cobra 8.5(?)mm half rope.
We decided we weren't happy with using a half rope as we would a single, unless it was doubled.
In reply to timO: I've used single 9mm ropes in lots of situations - you just have to assess the risk in each case. I don't see a problem for glacier travel as impact forces are low and much of the force should be absorbed as the rope cuts into the edge.
For example, approached the Walker Spur on one 9mm and moved together on it until the Rebuffat Crack. Only used one 9mm on the Swiss Route, Les Courtes. Decision based on likelihood of falling off, angle of terrain, whether pitching or moving together, etc... The system would usually be pretty dynamic if moving together so high fall factors are unlikely. Greatest risk is cutting over an edge or being cut by rockfall, during a fall.
Getting up and back down as quickly as possible is one of the most important ways of reducing risk in the mountains (particularly glaciated ones) so anything you can do to help this has to be considered.
For example, approached the Walker Spur on one 9mm and moved together on it until the Rebuffat Crack. Only used one 9mm on the Swiss Route, Les Courtes. Decision based on likelihood of falling off, angle of terrain, whether pitching or moving together, etc... The system would usually be pretty dynamic if moving together so high fall factors are unlikely. Greatest risk is cutting over an edge or being cut by rockfall, during a fall.
Getting up and back down as quickly as possible is one of the most important ways of reducing risk in the mountains (particularly glaciated ones) so anything you can do to help this has to be considered.
In reply to RichT: ...all helpful stuff - great responses and very enlightening ... many thanks
In reply to timO: buy a 60m double and double it up. you carry less coils and have "2" ropes in use. it's also much lighter and you have the advantage of long abseils without the weight penalty of a long single.
In reply to timO:
You can get super skinny singles this winter, mammut have recently brought an 8.9mm single rope...
You can get super skinny singles this winter, mammut have recently brought an 8.9mm single rope...
In reply to SeanFda: 'super skinny singles'
Does anybody know if UIAA are going to re-introduce the 'sharp edge test'? Their website seems to indicate it is still suspended and 'sharp edge resistence' currently can't be claimed for any rope.
Current ropes are not tested over an edge and until they are I'm not sure I'd trust halfs as singles or skinny singles if rock fall or catching on an edge during a fall is likely. As far as I know skinny singles just pass the standard drop test - manufacturers may test them on edges but we have no recognised standard test because the previous one was inconsistent.
Does anybody know if UIAA are going to re-introduce the 'sharp edge test'? Their website seems to indicate it is still suspended and 'sharp edge resistence' currently can't be claimed for any rope.
Current ropes are not tested over an edge and until they are I'm not sure I'd trust halfs as singles or skinny singles if rock fall or catching on an edge during a fall is likely. As far as I know skinny singles just pass the standard drop test - manufacturers may test them on edges but we have no recognised standard test because the previous one was inconsistent.
In reply to timO:
This is my personal opinion, but I am generally happy using a single half rope for anything. I have lead trad routes on them, and I have even top-toped on one (there was a hell of a lot of stretch!). I figure that when climbing trad in the UK there are many many instances where all the weight of a fall would be held on just the one rope of a pair, so they must be strong enough and safe enough or most of us would be dead.
This is my personal opinion, but I am generally happy using a single half rope for anything. I have lead trad routes on them, and I have even top-toped on one (there was a hell of a lot of stretch!). I figure that when climbing trad in the UK there are many many instances where all the weight of a fall would be held on just the one rope of a pair, so they must be strong enough and safe enough or most of us would be dead.
In reply to timO: I tend to use a thin single (a beal joker 9.1mm)in these circumstances. It's light and you're safe. I double it up with a normal half rope (beal cobra 8.6mm) when it get serious or I where there will be long / multiple raps. It works for me.
In reply to Monk: The OP was about PD alpine routes and though I agree with your comments about UK rock, on mixed alpine routes there's often lots of horrible sharp stones up there waiting to mash a little half rope to shreds...on such routes having a good strong single or doubled half rope floats my boat.
In the end we all have to judge it based on the routes we plan to do.
In the end we all have to judge it based on the routes we plan to do.
In reply to timO:
Yes its fine. A half rope is plenty strong enough and a lot more comfortable when carrying coils. You might also consider taking less than 50m, say 30m, if you are unlikely to abseil. This might make crevasse rescue trickier though.
> I am torn about using a half rope on routes like the PD NNE ridge of Mt Collon - have seen Swiss around with 50/60m 9mm dry half ropes and using them as singles on glacier travel and when moving together, using running belays.
Yes its fine. A half rope is plenty strong enough and a lot more comfortable when carrying coils. You might also consider taking less than 50m, say 30m, if you are unlikely to abseil. This might make crevasse rescue trickier though.
In reply to Nigel Modern:
That is true. But I am happy using a half rope for that too. Would you really use doubled half ropes on a PD though? I wouldn't expect to pitch anything, and if I did, i would be happy on the half anyway. 10 years ago I thought everyone used 9mm ropes in the alps for moving together. I guess you have to make your own decision. Mine is to use a lighter half rope, but when i come to replace it, i may well buy a skinny single.
However - are skinny single ropes any less prone to being cut by sharp edges than a half of similar diameter?
> (In reply to Monk) The OP was about PD alpine routes and though I agree with your comments about UK rock, on mixed alpine routes there's often lots of horrible sharp stones up there waiting to mash a little half rope to shreds...on such routes having a good strong single or doubled half rope floats my boat.
>> In the end we all have to judge it based on the routes we plan to do.
That is true. But I am happy using a half rope for that too. Would you really use doubled half ropes on a PD though? I wouldn't expect to pitch anything, and if I did, i would be happy on the half anyway. 10 years ago I thought everyone used 9mm ropes in the alps for moving together. I guess you have to make your own decision. Mine is to use a lighter half rope, but when i come to replace it, i may well buy a skinny single.
However - are skinny single ropes any less prone to being cut by sharp edges than a half of similar diameter?
In reply to timO: I would be asking 'Is it crazy to carry two ropes or a full rope when one half rope will be lighter and all that is really necessary'? I think it probably is, but make up your own mind.
In reply to timO:
I would agree with much of the points raised previously.
For easier routes/glacier travel (ie something like Mt Collon) a half rope used doubled when moving together is fine, its obviously a compromise on a single in terms of absolute rope performance. i would be happy to use a half rope on most alpine PDs were there is no pitched climbing - if pitches are encountered then they will proabbly be short (ie less than 30m) anyway so the double half rope will be fine.
Many ski mountaineers (perhaps more weight conscious) use and even skinier rope (say 8mm glacier rope) doubled and end up using this for moving together situations.
I would agree with much of the points raised previously.
For easier routes/glacier travel (ie something like Mt Collon) a half rope used doubled when moving together is fine, its obviously a compromise on a single in terms of absolute rope performance. i would be happy to use a half rope on most alpine PDs were there is no pitched climbing - if pitches are encountered then they will proabbly be short (ie less than 30m) anyway so the double half rope will be fine.
Many ski mountaineers (perhaps more weight conscious) use and even skinier rope (say 8mm glacier rope) doubled and end up using this for moving together situations.
In reply to timO:
No, lots of people do it on easy routes. If there is anything technical you can always double it up and do short pitches. It will limit you on abseils though. On anything technical with a lot of pitched climbing you will be better off taking both ropes though.
> is it crazy to use a half rope as a single rope?
No, lots of people do it on easy routes. If there is anything technical you can always double it up and do short pitches. It will limit you on abseils though. On anything technical with a lot of pitched climbing you will be better off taking both ropes though.
In reply to Monk: However - are skinny single ropes any less prone to being cut by sharp edges than a half of similar diameter?
I think so if you are comparing using a skinny single with a half rope doubled...on the assumption it spreads to force over a wider surface area. My next rope will be a skinny single...to add to the half and run out single if I have no other choice or I've chosen to go very light.
All this may be marginal tho' because a tensioned rope over a sharp edge will cut anyway and a large sharp rock will cut through any rope.
Would you really use doubled half ropes on a PD though?
Yes, some PDs need protection when moving together on a mixed ridge. Pitches on PDs are unlikely but some ADs can be done with a doubled half rope and might need some short pitches. That's my experience based on doing PDs and looking at moving up to ADs anyway...with a bit more experience I may change my mind.
I'm no expert and I'm cautious but I am questioning the move to very skinny singles with no reliable information on how the ropes perform when stressed over edges.
I think so if you are comparing using a skinny single with a half rope doubled...on the assumption it spreads to force over a wider surface area. My next rope will be a skinny single...to add to the half and run out single if I have no other choice or I've chosen to go very light.
All this may be marginal tho' because a tensioned rope over a sharp edge will cut anyway and a large sharp rock will cut through any rope.
Would you really use doubled half ropes on a PD though?
Yes, some PDs need protection when moving together on a mixed ridge. Pitches on PDs are unlikely but some ADs can be done with a doubled half rope and might need some short pitches. That's my experience based on doing PDs and looking at moving up to ADs anyway...with a bit more experience I may change my mind.
I'm no expert and I'm cautious but I am questioning the move to very skinny singles with no reliable information on how the ropes perform when stressed over edges.
In reply to timO:
Only a view (as everyone else's on this thread - an opinion):
It's fine if you're ok with the change in risk.....which is...
A single 9m is easier to cut over an edge. That's it. It won't break under body weight or even ff2. It *is* skinnnier and a sharp granite edge may slide it.
How likely are you to fall?
How likely are you to fall past the belay with no runner (ff2)?
How likely is the rope to run across an edge?
It's less "safe" than two ropes or an 11mm (or 3 ropes or 4 or 5...).
The only decision is how much risk you're willing to take on.
Personally, have done it many times. Sometimes very comfortabl; sometimes in a "oh sh*t, I didn't want this" kind of way. The former feels better.
J
Only a view (as everyone else's on this thread - an opinion):
It's fine if you're ok with the change in risk.....which is...
A single 9m is easier to cut over an edge. That's it. It won't break under body weight or even ff2. It *is* skinnnier and a sharp granite edge may slide it.
How likely are you to fall?
How likely are you to fall past the belay with no runner (ff2)?
How likely is the rope to run across an edge?
It's less "safe" than two ropes or an 11mm (or 3 ropes or 4 or 5...).
The only decision is how much risk you're willing to take on.
Personally, have done it many times. Sometimes very comfortabl; sometimes in a "oh sh*t, I didn't want this" kind of way. The former feels better.
J
In reply to timO: I've used a 9mm half rope as a single on many Alpine PD and AD routes as falling is unlikely and there's no way you'd need a pair of half ropes. Given that I don't own a single rope I think this system is fine as long as care is taken with sharp edges
In reply to Nigel Modern:
I know that! I was just saying that I would still just use an individual half rope on mixed terrain. Moving together with 2 strands of rope sounds like a lot of hassle.
> Would you really use doubled half ropes on a PD though?
>
> Yes, some PDs need protection when moving together on a mixed ridge. Pitches on PDs are unlikely but some ADs can be done with a doubled half rope and might need some short pitches. That's my experience based on doing PDs and looking at moving up to ADs anyway...with a bit more experience I may change my mind.
>
> Yes, some PDs need protection when moving together on a mixed ridge. Pitches on PDs are unlikely but some ADs can be done with a doubled half rope and might need some short pitches. That's my experience based on doing PDs and looking at moving up to ADs anyway...with a bit more experience I may change my mind.
I know that! I was just saying that I would still just use an individual half rope on mixed terrain. Moving together with 2 strands of rope sounds like a lot of hassle.
In reply to Monk:
Quiet agree. Even if we've had both ropes with us we'd only use a single one (and just part of it at that) when moving together on easy ground or a glacier.
> (In reply to Nigel Modern)
>
> I know that! I was just saying that I would still just use an individual half rope on mixed terrain. Moving together with 2 strands of rope sounds like a lot of hassle.
> I know that! I was just saying that I would still just use an individual half rope on mixed terrain. Moving together with 2 strands of rope sounds like a lot of hassle.
Quiet agree. Even if we've had both ropes with us we'd only use a single one (and just part of it at that) when moving together on easy ground or a glacier.
In reply to timO:
Embarrisingly, I'd like to admit that once me and a mate managed to break a 9mm half rope by a fall alone.
It was many years ago when I didn't know better - I didn't know anything in fact. I'd borrowed the rope (which was new) off a mate who'd taken me climbing a few times. I was out with another mate - who probably weighed about 12 stone and we got stuck on a grade 3 scramble - which had probably become a climb. We donned harnesses and tied in to one piece of gear in the wall. (I'm cringing now thinking about all the mistakes I was making).
I thought I'd tied an Italian hitch - when it was in fact a clove hitch. I loosened it through the crab as my mate headed up the wall. He fell a total of about 15 feet - the rope tied to this one bit of gear, stretched, broke his fall, and then snapped in mid-air. My mate fell a few feet more and hit the ground - bruised, shocked but ok.
We sent the rope to be tested by the BMC in case it was one of a batch that needed recalling. We didn't want any money back or to sue anyone. The BMC told us that it must have been broken from towing a car - they didn't believe us. If I'd known then what I know now I could have told them this catalogue of errors that led to this half rope snapping under the duress of a fall factor 2+.
Ropes will snap if they are not properly utilised.
Will
Embarrisingly, I'd like to admit that once me and a mate managed to break a 9mm half rope by a fall alone.
It was many years ago when I didn't know better - I didn't know anything in fact. I'd borrowed the rope (which was new) off a mate who'd taken me climbing a few times. I was out with another mate - who probably weighed about 12 stone and we got stuck on a grade 3 scramble - which had probably become a climb. We donned harnesses and tied in to one piece of gear in the wall. (I'm cringing now thinking about all the mistakes I was making).
I thought I'd tied an Italian hitch - when it was in fact a clove hitch. I loosened it through the crab as my mate headed up the wall. He fell a total of about 15 feet - the rope tied to this one bit of gear, stretched, broke his fall, and then snapped in mid-air. My mate fell a few feet more and hit the ground - bruised, shocked but ok.
We sent the rope to be tested by the BMC in case it was one of a batch that needed recalling. We didn't want any money back or to sue anyone. The BMC told us that it must have been broken from towing a car - they didn't believe us. If I'd known then what I know now I could have told them this catalogue of errors that led to this half rope snapping under the duress of a fall factor 2+.
Ropes will snap if they are not properly utilised.
Will
In reply to Will Legon:
I must say that I find it hard to believe too! A 15ft fall breaking a 9mm nylon climbing rope... sounds astonishing, unless it cut on a sharp edge or was already damaged. I'm not saying you are telling porkies, I'm just astonished given a much worse experience I had on a very old club 9mm rope which though stripped to the core still held a heavy climber on a much longer fall... admittedly there was more rope to stretch.
> The BMC told us that it must have been broken from towing a car - they didn't believe us
I must say that I find it hard to believe too! A 15ft fall breaking a 9mm nylon climbing rope... sounds astonishing, unless it cut on a sharp edge or was already damaged. I'm not saying you are telling porkies, I'm just astonished given a much worse experience I had on a very old club 9mm rope which though stripped to the core still held a heavy climber on a much longer fall... admittedly there was more rope to stretch.
In reply to Will Legon:
I have to admit to finding this surprising. Its very hard get anything greater than a factor 2 fall (and not under the circumstances you describe). Its also very hard not to hit a ledge on grade 3 scrambling territory. I'm sure there must have been some contributing factor to the rope snapping which isn't in your description.
I have to admit to finding this surprising. Its very hard get anything greater than a factor 2 fall (and not under the circumstances you describe). Its also very hard not to hit a ledge on grade 3 scrambling territory. I'm sure there must have been some contributing factor to the rope snapping which isn't in your description.
In reply to Will Legon:
Cool story!
Like the others, I believe you but I'm astonished and really can't believe there wasn't something else ar play here.
Closest I've ever come to breaking a rope is some seriously brutal towing work, that merely split the sheath. I've had a (ratty at the time) 10.5mm stand up to 4 hours of dynamic recovery with a landrover. I had to cut the knots out but it is otherwise still ok.
jk
Cool story!
Like the others, I believe you but I'm astonished and really can't believe there wasn't something else ar play here.
Closest I've ever come to breaking a rope is some seriously brutal towing work, that merely split the sheath. I've had a (ratty at the time) 10.5mm stand up to 4 hours of dynamic recovery with a landrover. I had to cut the knots out but it is otherwise still ok.
jk
In reply to Monk: Moving together with 2 strands of rope sounds like a lot of hassle.
Not a lot of hassle actually, once you're used to it, and moving between single and double strands takes little more time than shortening the rope as you move off the glacier.
Not a lot of hassle actually, once you're used to it, and moving between single and double strands takes little more time than shortening the rope as you move off the glacier.
In reply to timO: Have done on easier routes or short ones though i wouldn't on something that was more gnarly, probably a bit worried about taking a big fall on it and then having to climb on!
In reply to Vip1r: ....hmmm this is all very interesting - some good advice emerging, not least about evaluating risk. I've arsed around with my mate's 9mm halfrope at a wall, and it had horrible soggy sections and an abraded sheath and still coped with top roping a 13stone. Stretched a lot mind when he came onto it when popping off laybacks. But with huge crash mats (worthy of landing a space shuttle on) it seemed like an OK risk. Even from 8 metres up it would have been a kind of pop, streeeetch, ping, fall, whomp kind of non-injury landing. More seriously, two things stick out, you could use it but if it caught some rock fall, or suffered a high factor fall, you might be left without anything safe to continue on. And that kind of thing always seems to happen at the WORST kind of moment. The idea of doubling up when moving together on a PD is very interesting and I think we'll give it a whirl, but I note the post which says 'get fitter and carry something bigger' - which is a point well made.
In reply to timO:
More seriously, two things stick out, you could use it but if it caught some rock fall, or suffered a high factor fall, you might be left without anything safe to continue on.
You are very unlikely to have a high fall factor fall on PD/AD type ground and if you do the state of your rope will be least of your worries. If the rope does get cut you will still have at least half of it available which is sufficient.
9mm is fine. Spend more time thinking about things other than you rope diameter, like rope management - the implications for safety and speed are much greater.
More seriously, two things stick out, you could use it but if it caught some rock fall, or suffered a high factor fall, you might be left without anything safe to continue on.
You are very unlikely to have a high fall factor fall on PD/AD type ground and if you do the state of your rope will be least of your worries. If the rope does get cut you will still have at least half of it available which is sufficient.
9mm is fine. Spend more time thinking about things other than you rope diameter, like rope management - the implications for safety and speed are much greater.
In reply to MG: ...agreed - and very helpful post - thanks - it's clear that moving fast is one of the keys to alpine safety - I'm amazed at how fast the swiss I've seen can move - obviously (from the worn state of their axes, boots and gear) they are up a lot - but boy do they move fast and light - and take minimal gear - peter cliff (very old hand) emphasises speed speed speed - and light gear is a part of this, but fitness, familiarity, high skills and compatible partners are all essential too as far as I can see - just as you imply... ...thanks
In reply to timO: After years of this I now use a 50m 9.4m single rope for alpine stuff. Very light but bit stronger and less stretchy. Can also be used for double rope technique.
In reply to timO:
The NNE ridge of Mont Collon means probably descent via the West ridge? which needs 3 abseils so the longer the rope the better.
I once offered my 30m of 10mm to two Swiss I met climbing the Arolla face of the Aiguille de la Tza for the subsequent descent. They laughed and then invited me to use their 200m single 9mm which they had brought from Geneva that morning! They said longer ropes were essential for planned and emergency descents. I couldn't argue with their logic as they were motoring....
Choose wisely and ignore everyone then let us know how you get on please
The NNE ridge of Mont Collon means probably descent via the West ridge? which needs 3 abseils so the longer the rope the better.
I once offered my 30m of 10mm to two Swiss I met climbing the Arolla face of the Aiguille de la Tza for the subsequent descent. They laughed and then invited me to use their 200m single 9mm which they had brought from Geneva that morning! They said longer ropes were essential for planned and emergency descents. I couldn't argue with their logic as they were motoring....
Choose wisely and ignore everyone then let us know how you get on please
In reply to timO:
I got into the habit of doing this more and more until I took quite a big fall in the Alps. The rope rubbed over a sharp edge of granite - it didn't sever completely (I wouldn't be here if it had) but it had a worryingly large amount of damamge to sheath and core. I've since been a lot more careful about rope choice and been much more wiling to get out a second rope when the climing gets harder. I've also retired the rope of course.
As many others have said, it's all about managing the risk. There are still plenty of times when I'm happy to climb on one half but think carefully about what you're doing and revise your decision if the nature of the route changes.
I got into the habit of doing this more and more until I took quite a big fall in the Alps. The rope rubbed over a sharp edge of granite - it didn't sever completely (I wouldn't be here if it had) but it had a worryingly large amount of damamge to sheath and core. I've since been a lot more careful about rope choice and been much more wiling to get out a second rope when the climing gets harder. I've also retired the rope of course.
As many others have said, it's all about managing the risk. There are still plenty of times when I'm happy to climb on one half but think carefully about what you're doing and revise your decision if the nature of the route changes.
In reply to ChrisDaly: ...yep that's the planned route - NNE ridge with gendarmes, over the plateau top and then descent via the west ridge - great looking route when viewed from Arolla and have hankered after doing it for ages, but never seem to quite get the time when I'm in CH...
In reply to timO:
I have only been up and down the West ridge and countless retreats from the N. Face. I met two army lads who succeeded on the NNE ridge who slept in an emergency slit trench on the summit. They found it very, very loose lots of traversing on rubble covered ledges and very long. The best/most popular routes are the Sunrise Pillar routes from the Bouquetins then descent via the West ridge. I had long desired adding Mont Collon to my list but in hindsight it is one of the loosest mountains in a group with fairly suspect rock on many routes. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has done it recently especially the left hand North Face ridge.
I have only been up and down the West ridge and countless retreats from the N. Face. I met two army lads who succeeded on the NNE ridge who slept in an emergency slit trench on the summit. They found it very, very loose lots of traversing on rubble covered ledges and very long. The best/most popular routes are the Sunrise Pillar routes from the Bouquetins then descent via the West ridge. I had long desired adding Mont Collon to my list but in hindsight it is one of the loosest mountains in a group with fairly suspect rock on many routes. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has done it recently especially the left hand North Face ridge.
In reply to ChrisDaly:
In fact now I am getting armchair keen. Does anyone know anyone or has personally done the Bouquetins Traverse as it is the only local one I have not completed. Any partial attempts? Sorry for the thread diversion...
In fact now I am getting armchair keen. Does anyone know anyone or has personally done the Bouquetins Traverse as it is the only local one I have not completed. Any partial attempts? Sorry for the thread diversion...
In reply to ChrisDaly: ...this is the latest post on the NNE ridge route - I've heard that the looseness of the route is getting to be more and more of an issue (loss of ice due to global warming? Don't anyone get started on 'is global warming real or not') and this site: http://www.armchair-mountaineer.com/montcollon.htm was more than a bit scary re the lovely looking NNE ridge route - but many have done it and said it's great - although difficult to complete in the guidebook time (8hrs). Anybody done it this summer/autumn?
In reply to Nigel Modern: in reply to Jasonic:
"50m 9.4m single rope for alpine stuff
Makes sense...my 8.6 is a tad stretchy"
This thread is dead and this might seem a bit anorak-ish but 50m may not leave enough rope to have 10-12m between climbers with knots on it and same length in coils on each climber for crevasse rescue.
Probably not important in Alps but if somewhere remote...
"50m 9.4m single rope for alpine stuff
Makes sense...my 8.6 is a tad stretchy"
This thread is dead and this might seem a bit anorak-ish but 50m may not leave enough rope to have 10-12m between climbers with knots on it and same length in coils on each climber for crevasse rescue.
Probably not important in Alps but if somewhere remote...
In reply to ChrisDaly: ...chris....this REALLY is not a typo? 2oom? I said two hundred metres? where did they stuff it all? Or did they have a thousand coils on?
In reply to Bruce Hooker: ...kind of hum de hum de hum de hum...endless hauling...twist, kink, jam...then cut off the 90m you've managed to get through...
In reply to timO and others: Even on steep rock climbing, a 7.5mm twin rope used as a single will handle any SINGLE climbing fall (even those approaching FF2) with no problem.
The only difference between taking an initial fall on a 7.5mm rope is that you'll fall about twice as far on rope stretch compared to an 11mm one. The big danger is SUBSEQUENT falls where falls that you could take all day on a thick single could very easily result in a much thinner rope braking.
Most people can't afford a new rope every Alpine route so sticking to UIAA/CE approved single ropes ensures that you have enough safety margin to carry on using them after taking moderately large falls on them. But where very big falls are unlikely or impossible, it makes sense to consider much thinner ropes. The obvious cases are glacier travel and mountaineering on slopes less than perhaps 60 degrees.
An 11mm rope has about twice the cross section of a 7.5mm one. However, what we don't know is how 'sharp edge resistance' various with cross-section. I think that there probably aren't many real world cases where an 11mm would hold a 7.5mm cut through. Thicker ropes will be safer but it's worth remembering we don't know how much safer.
We now have 9mm double ropes and 'skinny' 9mm singles. In term of sharp edge performance, I might actually trust the old fashioned double more, since it probably has the thicker sheath. But in the absence of repeatable testing, in any circumstance where I'm worried about very sharp rock I would always want to use double or twin rope technique regardless of other considerations.
The only difference between taking an initial fall on a 7.5mm rope is that you'll fall about twice as far on rope stretch compared to an 11mm one. The big danger is SUBSEQUENT falls where falls that you could take all day on a thick single could very easily result in a much thinner rope braking.
Most people can't afford a new rope every Alpine route so sticking to UIAA/CE approved single ropes ensures that you have enough safety margin to carry on using them after taking moderately large falls on them. But where very big falls are unlikely or impossible, it makes sense to consider much thinner ropes. The obvious cases are glacier travel and mountaineering on slopes less than perhaps 60 degrees.
An 11mm rope has about twice the cross section of a 7.5mm one. However, what we don't know is how 'sharp edge resistance' various with cross-section. I think that there probably aren't many real world cases where an 11mm would hold a 7.5mm cut through. Thicker ropes will be safer but it's worth remembering we don't know how much safer.
We now have 9mm double ropes and 'skinny' 9mm singles. In term of sharp edge performance, I might actually trust the old fashioned double more, since it probably has the thicker sheath. But in the absence of repeatable testing, in any circumstance where I'm worried about very sharp rock I would always want to use double or twin rope technique regardless of other considerations.
In reply to timO: The most important thing to do here is start by differentiating between fact and heresay.
FACT - there is not a single case in the past ten years of a rope breaking in a fall, regardless of diameter, except when loaded over a sharp edge, or already damaged.
FACT - it is not the diameter of the rope which counts- it is the resistance to abrasion.
So, then ask yourself the following.. Is the route rocky at all ? If I fall, is it likely to be a slip, or a precipitous lob ? Then make your own call.
Personally I am big fan of skinny full ropes like Mammut Serenity and Beal Jokers for rocky terrain. I often use a single half rope (not a twin rope) when personal climbing on non rocky terrain.
Hope that helps
FACT - there is not a single case in the past ten years of a rope breaking in a fall, regardless of diameter, except when loaded over a sharp edge, or already damaged.
FACT - it is not the diameter of the rope which counts- it is the resistance to abrasion.
So, then ask yourself the following.. Is the route rocky at all ? If I fall, is it likely to be a slip, or a precipitous lob ? Then make your own call.
Personally I am big fan of skinny full ropes like Mammut Serenity and Beal Jokers for rocky terrain. I often use a single half rope (not a twin rope) when personal climbing on non rocky terrain.
Hope that helps
In reply to stuartmacdonald: ...yes very helpful - for which many thanks - and I'm currently reading bonington's annapurna - where they use 9mm kermantle for all the fixed ropes, whic reinforces your 'is it a slip or a lob' argument. Tim
In reply to victim of mathematics:
I agree with this dude.
Read the manufacturers instructions and then make your own judgement call. I've done it many times on mountain routes but never on steep stuff where I could fall hard onto the rope.
I agree with this dude.
Read the manufacturers instructions and then make your own judgement call. I've done it many times on mountain routes but never on steep stuff where I could fall hard onto the rope.
In reply to timO: buy a mammut serenity or similar.
In reply to GrahamD: Todays half ropes are stronger than grade 4 nylon which was the strongest single rope you could buy when I started, the cutting over an edge applies to any thickness of single rope.
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