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Location of Mont Blanc de Courmayeur

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 ericoides 19 Oct 2008
Is this peak in Italy and France, or just in Italy? Good old Wikipedia seems to vacillate on this on a weekly basis.

The same dispute, but to a lesser extent, crops up re the Dôme du Goûter.

It would be nice to have definitive answers. One problem is that the French IGN maps and the Italian maps themselves don't agree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_de_Courmayeur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B4me_du_Go%C3%BBter
In reply to ericoides:

MB de Courmayeur is completely in Italy.

From a legal point of view, the definition of the frontier passing on the main summit of MB in the 1861 Turin treaty between Italy and France is still valid, as that section of the border wasn't changed after the peace treaty between the two nations in 1949 (after WWII).

The definition of 1861 was inequivocal. However, when the first official French map of the new border was made, the cartographer (a French officier called Mieulet), produced a map with the line of the frontier passing on MB de Courmayeur. It's not clear how this happened - definition of the actual, physical frontier line was, back then, a methodical process based on a sort of "contradictory" between the land survey officiers of the two nation, who would have revised every meter of the border to decide where to place the division line. It's unlikely such a process happened for MB, partially because of the physical difficulty to get there, part because there's no surviving written transcription of "definition process" of the frontier here (as it should have happened). In other words, only the 1861 treaty says that the main frontier should pass for the highest summit of MB.

It's not clear why Mieulet decided to change the frontier location. It was thought for years it has been "suggested" by the French government (to put the summit entirely into French territory), but the latest theory is that he did it all on his own.

A further complication happened in 1946, when the Haute Savoye authorities decided to put an end to a century old diatribe between the communities of Chamonix and those jolly fellows in St. Gervais Les Bains, as the latter had produced some land register evidence "demonstrating" that the area of the summit dome of Mt. Blanc going from the main summit to MB de Courmayeur on the W (Miage) side was owned by St. Gervais itself. This could (by the way) allow legally St. Gervais to change its name in "St. Gervais - Mt. Blanc", and - if you don't know - it's the basis of the current St. Gervais mayor claim he has the right to limit access to Mt. Blanc and establish a permit system. It must be noted that from the point of view of international law, land register evidence can't be used to establish the border between nations.

The shifted frontier thing was repeated on every French map afterwards, and for many reasons the Italian government(s) that followed never make an actual step to have the situation corrected, until 1988, when (after on a request from Italy), a join commission was established to re-establish the correct frontier. Then Italian ambassador in France Napolitano produced large evidence to support Italy's position on the controversy, but after almost 8 years of discussions, the commission was dissolved (under French request). The whole thing was discussed again (this time in Parliament) and further pressures were made to establish another commission to close this issue once for all, but recently France made the point that after Schengen treaty, all controversies related to borders internal to the EU must be solved at EU level.

The whole thing is far less academical than it may appear at first, as a re-definition of the frontier from a cartographical point of view would have two very practical consequences:

1) Define St. Gervais claims on the summit of MB (with all that implies, given the current Mayor plans on it!)

2) Define (a lesser know problem) who owns Col du Geant, and all the infrastructures there
OP ericoides 19 Oct 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

My goodness, what a reply! Many thanks Luca.
 Duncan I 19 Oct 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

You have just thoroughly enriched a rather average Sunday afternoon. I'm heading towards the sofa to finish the last few pages of Brenva that I've been meaning to read for a couple of months now and check the maps that are included in T Graham Brown's appendices therein.

Thanks!
In reply to Duncan I:

Glad you liked it, the story is actually more complicate, as it starts at the age of Napoleon (when for the first time a sort of "border" crossed the summit of Mt. Blanc - as you may know, before that - and after and until 1865, the entire Mt. Blanc area was under control of the Duchy of Savoy).

The interesting thing about the Napoleon treaty was that it introduced a first element of ambiguity, as it stated that the summit border was located on the top of Mt. Blanc "as seen from Courmayeur". However, as everyone knows, the REAL summit of Mt. Blanc can't be seen from the center of the old Courmayeur village (use the church square as a reference). However, it's clearly visibile from Courmayeur territory if you move in one of the satellite hamlets like La Saxe or Entreves.

The "St. Gervais big takeover" thing would make a nice soap opera by itself...
morphus 23 Oct 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: interesting stuff! have you ever thought about writing a book?
 sutty 23 Oct 2008
In reply to morphus:

I have this saved in climbing bookmarks, a wealth of information there along with links;

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&na...
 Calvi 23 Oct 2008
In reply to sutty:

I have been trawling through all the links etc that Luca has posted, the information, photographs are spot on. Sante
 sutty 23 Oct 2008
In reply to Calvi:

You could make a folder for him, save all the postings and have it all to refer to like a book offline.
 Nigel Modern 25 Oct 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: Fabulous Luca...I shall be the first to alter my maps to reflect the real situation....

I especially like the whole St Gervais/Chamonix thing...French local government at its best and most amusing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at a meeting between the two mayors. btw I am a fan of French local government even though it does seem to result in lots of soap opera stuff...perhaps partly because it does result in lots of soap opera stuff...

Col du Geant...can't bear to tell Sam (11yrs) about possible dispute...in the summer he insisted on spending some time in Italy, which meant standing by the cable station at Helbronner arriving from the Courmayeur side! Mind you I could now tell him that our entire 'expedition' was in Italy...or could I?
In reply to Nigel Modern:

> I especially like the whole St Gervais/Chamonix thing...French local government at its best and most amusing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at a meeting between the two mayors. btw I am a fan of French local government even though it does seem to result in lots of soap opera stuff...perhaps partly because it does result in lots of soap opera stuff...

More than "local French government at its best", is really "alpine communities at their most typical". It's the kind of strife that happens quite often in most alpine areas. The difference is that here there's a lot of money and prestige at stake. It's true however that in France prestige-related local issues are taken quite seriously, but as I said, here's there's some serious money involved.

This said, sometime I wonder if there are not deeper psychological reasons for the passion that St. Gervais and Chamonix are putting on this, while on this side (Courmayeur) no one seems to be taking the whole story seriously (and even I, to be honest, I've some trouble considering it "a problem"). Mayve it's all to do with the local perception of what the real MB summit is - from France the summit you see it's the highest one, while from Italy, despite what geography says, the "real" summit will be always be MB de Courmayeur

http://www.skiforum.it/skiforum/upload/foto/10276-dsc01922.jpg

It's the "one sided mountain" syndrome.


>
> Col du Geant...can't bear to tell Sam (11yrs) about possible dispute...in the summer he insisted on spending some time in Italy, which meant standing by the cable station at Helbronner arriving from the Courmayeur side! Mind you I could now tell him that our entire 'expedition' was in Italy...or could I?

Helbronner is entirely in France (in theory), but from a mere logical point of view, the whole trip took place in Italy (and the interesting view is on that side, and so )
 Nigel Modern 25 Oct 2008
In reply to Nigel Modern:

> Fantastic photo...we never saw that view in 1991...not from Courmayeur? Somewhere high up west of Courmayeur?

No, that's taken from Verrand, the small "suburb" below (and east) of Courmayeur. I think that a large majority of Brits knows this view at least subconsciously, as less than 100 yards from where this pics was taken a famous scene of the original, 1969 "Italian Job" was shot (it's the dialogue about flowers between Michael Caine and Benny Hill, the one about flowers)

> Yes, and the Italian side is the more rugged and the Vallee Blanche (now claimed by Italy?) glorious but I think that the 'Great Dome' from the French side is also stunning. It's just a great mountain and would be even if it wasn't the highest.

Had a discussion about this tonight with an Italian (non Courmayeur) guide, who maintains that the facts MB it's the highest in the Alps gives it a quality by itself, despite all aesthetics consideration you may have in comparison with, let's say, Matterhorn. Not sure I can agree.

> You'll be interested in it because my dad flew Mustangs in Italy in 1944. Po River crossings was his main engagement and he lost a comrade shot down over the bridges. Sadly he never was able to talk about it in detail...too raw even after all this time...

yes, please, tell us more about this!

 Nigel Modern 26 Oct 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: I agree...yes the fact that it's the biggest adds to it but if it was surrounded by only ugly ducklings?? The fact is that surrounded by jewels MB is the greatest jewel amongst them...that is the French side effect.

On the Italian side...rugged, challenging...true (I mean more varied) mountaineering? Not knowing from personal experience on this I shouldn't really comment but all/most of the really tough technical routes are on the Italian side and for me this is part of the beauty and the view from Courmayeur says just this, 'I'm big, very big and you need to be more than a fit glacier walker to tackle me.'

Matterhorn - stunning...the quintessential 'mountain' - MB is different.

I'll email you the article which as I say needs to be OK'd by family members before public reading...he died only last week. Sadly I know little detail as he couldn't talk about it without choking up and literally becoming incoherent. I guess the Mustang was involved in some pretty messy stuff against the retreating German army...tough for a man who was essentially pacific in nature. He did his duty to stop Hitler...and paid a price. Never had a bad word to say about Italians or Germans. He always played down his part in it all ('The war was nearly over') but then as he neared the end more came out and it involved the last actions of the Italian campaign over the bridges of the River Po. I asked him to write an account, which I hope we'll find in his papers.
 Null 06 Nov 2008
In reply to Nigel Modern:

Wars have a knock on effect into at least the next generation.
I'm a bit of a "R.A.F." victim too. Again, not easy to sort out exactly what happened, but tens of thousand of German civilians were being burned to death in the process.

And the syndrome of the children of the children of the holocaust is well known in Israel.

And the incredibly stupid thing, as my grandfather (Battle of the Somme, Dunkirk, Burma Railway, died at 95!) said, "They never learn".
 Nigel Modern 06 Nov 2008
In reply to Gavin Taylor: Hi Gavin...you hit the nail on the head '...knock on effect...' I didn't realise until recently that I was an RAF victim but I probably am.

Bomber command...I feel for those guys...they've had a bad press and have always been a bit ostracised. Interestingly a work colleague from Dresden (of my generation) was very philosophical about what happened there...he felt the rail yards there were a genuine strategic target. I'm just glad that bombing civilian populations was shown not to work because if it had we might still be doing it...depressing.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Sadly I don't see many nations behaving as if they believe that.

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