UKC

what is the smallest pack you can reasonably get away with for scottish winter climbing, have used a 20l for summer routes in the alps, could i get away with it in scotland in the winter ?

In reply to lost1977:

No, I wouldn't think so.

In reply to lost1977:

Sorry, not terribly constructive there. For what it's worth, I tend to find that by the time I've got rope or rack, helmet, axes (outside), crampons, extra clothes, gloves, food, water etc etc etc I've filled about 40-45 litres.

There may be others with more experience who have learned to cut down on the amount of stuff they're lugging around - but at the moment I'm not sure I could get away with much less.

Jamie.

In reply to lost1977:

Give or take a few litres that can work for a day oot. Rack, rope,camera,crampons and axes strapped or draped outside.
Navigation,spare clothes,bivy bag(optional),phone,grub/fluid inside.
Nice and compact when you're on the route. Bag of shite on the walk in/oot.But hey!

Slugain

In reply to lost1977:

Depends how much extra you'd carry in Scotland above and beyond your alpine kit, which probably depends most on where you are, the conditions and the forecast?

In reply to J Brown:

just done a little test

in pack

belay jacket
mittens (super warm)
spare glove liners
water + a little food (high energy)
extra fleece layer

on outside of pack

axes
crampons
rope
helmet (or possibly on head)

half of rack in pack
half of rack on outside

20l pack used dont think i've forgotten anything

In reply to lost1977:

and that leaves my partner with an even lighter pack

In reply to lost1977:

What is the point in planning to carry a sack with half your gear on the outside?

In reply to Donald M:

The answer that comes to mind is that you're not dragging an empty 60L coal sack up the route.

In reply to Donald M:

Exactly what I was about to ask. (So I like everything inside my sack!)

In reply to Slugain Howff:

So get one that you can cinch and compress right down?

personally prefer climbing with a smaller pack, bigger packs tend to be taller. with a small pack i can get to my harness easily when climbing and in the past i have had my ROM of my head limited when wearing helmet and larger pack

In reply to lost1977: A large pack typically means you can pack it faster, and also gives you more flexibility should you end up, for example, taking some of the gear off an exhuasted partner. And means you will have less excuse to leave out things you odn't use every time but are essential, like a bivvy bag, first aid kit, spare clothing etc.

In reply to lost1977:

35 + 5 Ltr. for single days out.

Rack, ropes, food, water, helmet.

If your planning anything more serious then 40 + 5ltr.

In reply to lost1977:

I'm pretty sure Andy KP once suggested he occasionally set off with just his crampons in a plastic bag and a can of coke in his pocket. That was soloing with the aid of cable cars though.

In reply to lost1977: I use a Berghoose 32L sack, which is a ok for all my kit with axes and helmet on the outside. It has no extra room though and I usually have a jacket or something hanging of it on the way in. Nice and neat on route though. I would certainly not use anything smaller and my next sack will probably be a little larger.

In reply to lost1977:

I use the Grivel Airtech 28 most of the time. Fit everything I need inside - 1/2 rope, half a rack, crampons, waterproof jacket and trousers, 1L bottle, mitts, gloves, hat, torch, camera... No room for my softshell and helmet so I'll just strap them outside when not wearing them. If I brought my belay jacket I'll ask my partner to carry it for me (often we carry only 1 belay jacket between the 2 of us).

When we start climbing I'll collapse my 28L rucksack and put it inside my partner's 45L rucksack. Whoever seconding will carry the bag and wear the belay jacket so the leader can climb without a bag. It works very well for us.

This season I'm getting myself a slightly bigger bag which will fit my belay jacket as well. Around 35L should do the job.

In reply to lost1977:


That's fair enough. And I can see the point in terms of having a smaller sack on the route, but (personally) I'd rather not have crampons, rope, half a rack, and a helmet on the outside for walking in/out.

I suppose it's all going to come down to personal taste.

Anyway, have a good season.

In reply to J Brown: it strikes me that sometimes folks like walking about with jangly bits hanging from their pack - think they reckon it makes em look like a dead 'ard climber 'anat. like the folk who walk off the hill still wearing a harness, and then straight into the clachaig with it still on

In reply to Donald M:

On the flipside, what's wrong with it?

In reply to Chris F:

Well, why not leave your sack at home and just strap all your gear to your body?

In reply to lost1977:

Good question!

I've tried to cut down the size of my pack, but once you add a few essentials ie; bothy bag? and small 1st aid kit? You end up needing a larger pack.


I reckon without having to strap too much too the outside 35 with a floating lid. Another thing I find annoying is that it's hard to find smaller packs with floating lids.

In reply to lost1977:
thing is smaller/lighter packs are normally less comfortable than larger/heavier ones when the smaller/lighter one is overloaded.

In reply to Chris F:

More chance of it catching on something or losing gear.

In reply to petestack:

uncomfy?

In reply to SFM:

On the walk in? Once you start climbing the route you have most of the stuff that was attached to the pack attached to you, and enough space in the pack for everything else?

In reply to lost1977:

Looks like you've answered your own question here.

Where are you planning to stash map/compass/guidebook/first aid kit/bivvi-bag?

Personally I would have thought 30 - 40L would be about right - I take a 40L sack but thats mainly to do with the ease of rummaging / packing plus I only have the axes outside.

In reply to Chris F:

Yep on the walk in. Thinking alongs the lines of an approach through trees.

In reply to Chris F:

It makes the pack less stable, items could fall off and get lost, and things like rope become more likely to get wet(ter) and then freeze up. To me, the whole point of carrying a small sack would be to carry less things and thereby save weight, but if you're just going to attach the extra things to the outside you may as well just have the benefits a larger pack offers. Obviously it's just personal preference though.

In reply to SFM: don't know about everyone else but sometimes when you get up out of the corrie or wherever, it's a matter of stuff the gear in the sack asap before you get blown off or freeze!...bigger pack gives you the space to ram stuff in at get moving...IMO.

In reply to J Brown:

Crampons always used to go outside the sack strapped to the top of the lid, this is why there were those rubber crampon protectors that you were meant to use on alpine telepheriques. Then crampon bags came along and people started to put their crampons inside their sack. I can see benefits and problems in both ways so it's not cut and dry and depending on the day I'll do either.

Not a fan of having my share of the rack on the outside, but having the rope hitched between body and lid is quite common and if your rope is icy on the way out - very handy.

ALC

In reply to Byron Buck:

Sorry, that should say "fewer things". Thought I'd say that before I got pulled up for it.

In reply to SFM:

An outside possibility, but I don't recall ever having approached in scotland where there is a chance of things snagging on trees.

In reply to Chris F:

Old path to Ben Nevis?

For th princely sum of 3.99 I bought a 15l stowable rucksack from decthlon. Weighs <100g packs down to the size of a small apple and holds all the kit you'll need for the route/descent. Leave your big sack in the corrie somewhere.

In reply to x-y:


I'd love to see how you do this; I cant even get close.

Personally I find when I'm de-gearing I'm usually in a hurry and having to deal with kit that has become impregnated and bulky with snow/ice. At these times I really dont want to be performing a zen-like packing ritual in order to get everything in; I just want a big canvas hole to throw things into.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Which is why I prefer larger, lighter packs these days. Especially my GoLite Jam2 and Pinnacle, which are 50 and 70 litres respectively, weigh next to nothing and carry better than my disappointing Macpac Ascent (which looks nice, has bombproof fabric, got great reviews, but is fatally flawed by straps that keep slowly loosening all the time). But I tend to use the 50 litre pack for summer climbing or winter walking, and the 70 litre for backpacking or winter climbing, and neither ever needs to be shapeless when half-packed or less because not only do you get the usual side-compression straps but you can also effectively clip out the bottom panel. They're quick to get into (with no silly lid or a thousand buckles and drawcords to get in the way when one will do), surprisingly robust, altogether a revelation, and only inferior to the Macpac IMHO in not keeping loose contents dry in a downpour (which is why I have dry bags for things that matter).

Might add that my smallest sack (apart from specialist running sacs) is now 50 litres and my backpacking gear all modern, light and compact, but I still prefer the larger sack for many applications. So stick to 20 litres, or 30, or 40 for winter if that's what you prefer, but I wouldn't!

In reply to 3leggeddog:
I guess if you were drunk and blind, or blind drunk, you might.

In reply to lost1977: I regularly use a 25l pack, with the rope on the inside. 20 would be pushing it, unless you wore the harness and rack, or had rope on outside.

In reply to Removed User: Having gear stored in the rucsac will reduce the chance of losing it.

In reply to Chris F:

Or soaking, shivering, stumbling after a 20+hr epic

In reply to 3leggeddog: Same thing really.

Ideally 2 people take one moderate-sized pack between them, so the leader can climb pack-free. That's the best way, I think. Concentrates the mind on travelling light, without getting ridiculous in a Mark Twightish way (you know the pics of him soloing high on MB with nothing but axes, poons and a dink little bum-bag...)

In reply to x-y:

I think you must carry a small rack then, but I guess it depends on the grade of route? A few wires, krabs, cord, slings and screws take up a fair bit of space.

In reply to lost1977:

no not if you are pulling yor weight and sharing the load of rope and rack

go for 40l

In reply to lost1977:
I prefer to carry everything inside my pack.

Week before last I was out on the hill, and verglass started to form on my trekking poles. If I had a rack dangling outside my pack, that would have meant verglass forming on all my crabs, ropes, slings, etc - adding weight, and making life a pain when I started climbing. So I prefer to have everything inside.

Also, it is a lot easier to pack things away inside a big pack rather than attaching this and that to the outside - like Jamie B, I like having a "canvas hole" into which I can fling everything. And less chance of losing stuff that way, too. Especially in a hoolie.

A small pack with stuff on the outside may work fine in nice weather, but when can you guarantee that in Scotland?

In reply to lost1977:

In addition to your kit list, I personally take:
a shelter / bothy bag (one amongst the lot of us)
goggles
Another spare pair of gloves
first aid kit (again, one amongst the lot of us)
head torch
map and compass
spare map and compass (one amongst the lot of us)
lip balm
some cable ties (for field repairs of rucksacks, gaiters, boots... yes I've done all of these in the mountains. Always remember your cable ties)

I also like to be able to stow my Paramo jacket in/on my pack, as I can get very hot when ascending and the weather is nice (yes, days can start nice in Scotland, and I run hot).