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Heading to the North Devon Coast?
Rich Mayfield shares his thoughts on the state of fixed gear, abseil stations and more...
Read the full feature on the BMC site here:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2876
Rich Mayfield shares his thoughts on the state of fixed gear, abseil stations and more...
Read the full feature on the BMC site here:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2876
In reply to Team BMC: There seems to be no information about the re-equiping policy on the link given in the article. I have doubts about such a policy and I do not recall many people at the meeting being in favour of it beyond putting an ab chain on the central fin on Sharpnose and replacing the Eroica peg. Perhaps you could include a link to the minutes with the article.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Hi Mark,
Just read the article myself, my reading of it is that no policy was agreed at the meeting, so it won't appear in any minutes. This idea comes from an informal discussion afterwards, I think? Minutes for SW area meetings here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Pages.aspx?page=43
Hope this helps
Dan
Hi Mark,
Just read the article myself, my reading of it is that no policy was agreed at the meeting, so it won't appear in any minutes. This idea comes from an informal discussion afterwards, I think? Minutes for SW area meetings here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Pages.aspx?page=43
Hope this helps
Dan
In reply to Team BMC: Rich, thank you for the article but I think you are wrong on several counts!
"That like for like should be the way forward. "
I presume this means that hard-steel pegs should be replaced by more hard-steel pegs. I think this is a poor policy. It is short-sighted and unsafe.
It is short-sighted as it is only putting off the inevitable for another ten years (a generous lifespan for a sea-cliff peg). Then what? Replace again? Eventually one of two things happens. Often the placement gets blocked with a snapped-off peg. What do we do now? With more luck, the placement enlarges to the point where it takes a wire or cam. This second evil, the lesser of the two, would be much more likely to occur if we encourage the placement and removal of pegs rather than fixing. ‘Constructive scarring’ in this way is the sustainable solution for keeping these routes climbable in the long-term.
Rich, have you climbed at Bosigran recently? This is a good example of the effects of long-term fixed peg use on sea-cliffs as it’s the venue with the longest history of their use. Try a route like The Ghost. The decaying stubs of metal and rust streaks are disgusting. Or have a look at Brain Child at Bude Pillars. A fine looking E5 that relied entirely on fixed pegs, now rotted to uselessness, the placements blocked (I’ve checked on abseil). How do you “like for like” a route like that? How many ascents did this get before the pegs went? Half a dozen locals, one or two visitors? The route as climbed by the first ascentionist became defunct within ten years of the first ascent. It would have been far better to leave the route without pegs for a better climber or to encourage the temporary placement of pegs.
I hope people will be climbing on the Culm in a hundred years time. What will they think of this generation’s guardianship? Fixing pegs is not a long-term option.
It is unsafe because it is harder to judge the reliability of situ pegs than gear you place yourself. If people adhere to the ‘easy to follow guidelines’ they will not ‘stay safe on the north coast’ because pegs passing your test criteria will still fail unexpectedly. People should understand that situ gear on sea-cliffs should be used as waymarks only. The safe option is to assume all pegs will fail, however good they may look. No protection is actually safer than illusory protection.
"I was a little surprised to see that almost no fixed gear has been replaced during this time!"
Why the surprise? Pegs are fixed by the first ascentionist, it's the price they pay for the kudos of climbing a new line. How realistic is it to expecting people to leave a shiny new peg (lost arrows are currently £12 a pop) which can be easily unfixed by another party with fewer scruples (or better ethics)? If we are to see BMC sponsored peg replacement, can you let me know when it’s happening as I’m planning a trip to Yosemite and my pin rack is looking a little depleted!
In this thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=310365&v=1#x4583502 two activists, Dave Henderson and Ian Parnell, both suggested we should be moving away from fixed gear on sea cliffs. Fixed gear has almost entirely gone from Gogarth and the routes are still climbed, even when the pegs were ‘essential’ like on Barbarossa. Why not the same on the Culm?
The default ethic should be no-fixed-pegs with placed-and-removed pegs tolerated in a few specific instances.
"That like for like should be the way forward. "
I presume this means that hard-steel pegs should be replaced by more hard-steel pegs. I think this is a poor policy. It is short-sighted and unsafe.
It is short-sighted as it is only putting off the inevitable for another ten years (a generous lifespan for a sea-cliff peg). Then what? Replace again? Eventually one of two things happens. Often the placement gets blocked with a snapped-off peg. What do we do now? With more luck, the placement enlarges to the point where it takes a wire or cam. This second evil, the lesser of the two, would be much more likely to occur if we encourage the placement and removal of pegs rather than fixing. ‘Constructive scarring’ in this way is the sustainable solution for keeping these routes climbable in the long-term.
Rich, have you climbed at Bosigran recently? This is a good example of the effects of long-term fixed peg use on sea-cliffs as it’s the venue with the longest history of their use. Try a route like The Ghost. The decaying stubs of metal and rust streaks are disgusting. Or have a look at Brain Child at Bude Pillars. A fine looking E5 that relied entirely on fixed pegs, now rotted to uselessness, the placements blocked (I’ve checked on abseil). How do you “like for like” a route like that? How many ascents did this get before the pegs went? Half a dozen locals, one or two visitors? The route as climbed by the first ascentionist became defunct within ten years of the first ascent. It would have been far better to leave the route without pegs for a better climber or to encourage the temporary placement of pegs.
I hope people will be climbing on the Culm in a hundred years time. What will they think of this generation’s guardianship? Fixing pegs is not a long-term option.
It is unsafe because it is harder to judge the reliability of situ pegs than gear you place yourself. If people adhere to the ‘easy to follow guidelines’ they will not ‘stay safe on the north coast’ because pegs passing your test criteria will still fail unexpectedly. People should understand that situ gear on sea-cliffs should be used as waymarks only. The safe option is to assume all pegs will fail, however good they may look. No protection is actually safer than illusory protection.
"I was a little surprised to see that almost no fixed gear has been replaced during this time!"
Why the surprise? Pegs are fixed by the first ascentionist, it's the price they pay for the kudos of climbing a new line. How realistic is it to expecting people to leave a shiny new peg (lost arrows are currently £12 a pop) which can be easily unfixed by another party with fewer scruples (or better ethics)? If we are to see BMC sponsored peg replacement, can you let me know when it’s happening as I’m planning a trip to Yosemite and my pin rack is looking a little depleted!
In this thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=310365&v=1#x4583502 two activists, Dave Henderson and Ian Parnell, both suggested we should be moving away from fixed gear on sea cliffs. Fixed gear has almost entirely gone from Gogarth and the routes are still climbed, even when the pegs were ‘essential’ like on Barbarossa. Why not the same on the Culm?
The default ethic should be no-fixed-pegs with placed-and-removed pegs tolerated in a few specific instances.
In reply to Team BMC:
No future in 'like for like' on sea cliffs, the routes have to be re-climbed and re-graded.
Eroica goes at about E3 6a at the moment. Thing is when the first ascent was done we didn't have climbing walls, chalk, RP's or sticky rock shoes. Given how much kit has improved I think we should be doing without pegs or indeed any fixed gear on sea cliffs. The SW is a bastion of British Trad.
As for the Sharpnose Middle fin Ab stations all they need is some 11 m static rope with maillions on, the ones on the Grochan and the Cromlech are doing fine two years on from their placement.
No future in 'like for like' on sea cliffs, the routes have to be re-climbed and re-graded.
Eroica goes at about E3 6a at the moment. Thing is when the first ascent was done we didn't have climbing walls, chalk, RP's or sticky rock shoes. Given how much kit has improved I think we should be doing without pegs or indeed any fixed gear on sea cliffs. The SW is a bastion of British Trad.
As for the Sharpnose Middle fin Ab stations all they need is some 11 m static rope with maillions on, the ones on the Grochan and the Cromlech are doing fine two years on from their placement.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Hi Mark
This is not the official BMC re-equiping policy, this is my option, and the option of some other named in the article, a link to these minutes would prove useful for further discussions. I think it´s safe to say we all but one concured no bolts, but as two the way forward? This is one option, which is open to discussion.
Rich
Hi Mark
This is not the official BMC re-equiping policy, this is my option, and the option of some other named in the article, a link to these minutes would prove useful for further discussions. I think it´s safe to say we all but one concured no bolts, but as two the way forward? This is one option, which is open to discussion.
Rich
In reply to Mike Raine:
Hi Mike
I mostly agree with what you´re saying in an ideal world. I would love to see the North Coast fixed gear free. If after discussion this becomes the BMC policy then we should abide by it. Think we might have some fun regarding the routes LOL.
My opinion is that some routes would jump several E grades and be out of reach for a lot of people. Who like the first ascentist could have and did climb the routes in their original states.
At the moment, from what people are telling me cos I haven´t climbed on this coast for a while, all pegs are very suspect and shouldn´t be trusted, as are most abseil stations. Some of which have to be used and can not inspected prior to use.
So route grades may appear to be accurate, but are much more serious that suggested. Dangerous?
I don´t mind pushing it out on serious routes, but I want to know what I´m getting on first so I can make an informed choice, and at the moment things appear to be dangerously unclear. That translates as people voting with their feet and climbing elsewhere, as people said at the meeting, so routes get dirty and overgrow making them even less appealing.
Stripping all fix gear sounds like great fun, almost new routing, but surely that´s elitist. Might have to go and buy some brave pills then ;0)
Are there people on here who don´t climb on the North Coast because of the fixed gear? Would removing fixed gear increase popularity? At least it would be graded accurately.
It would be nice to see more people from the SW getting involved with the BMC and having their say.
Rich
Hi Mike
I mostly agree with what you´re saying in an ideal world. I would love to see the North Coast fixed gear free. If after discussion this becomes the BMC policy then we should abide by it. Think we might have some fun regarding the routes LOL.
My opinion is that some routes would jump several E grades and be out of reach for a lot of people. Who like the first ascentist could have and did climb the routes in their original states.
At the moment, from what people are telling me cos I haven´t climbed on this coast for a while, all pegs are very suspect and shouldn´t be trusted, as are most abseil stations. Some of which have to be used and can not inspected prior to use.
So route grades may appear to be accurate, but are much more serious that suggested. Dangerous?
I don´t mind pushing it out on serious routes, but I want to know what I´m getting on first so I can make an informed choice, and at the moment things appear to be dangerously unclear. That translates as people voting with their feet and climbing elsewhere, as people said at the meeting, so routes get dirty and overgrow making them even less appealing.
Stripping all fix gear sounds like great fun, almost new routing, but surely that´s elitist. Might have to go and buy some brave pills then ;0)
Are there people on here who don´t climb on the North Coast because of the fixed gear? Would removing fixed gear increase popularity? At least it would be graded accurately.
It would be nice to see more people from the SW getting involved with the BMC and having their say.
Rich
In reply to Team BMC: I found it impossible to find the minutes from the link given above, so I'm copying in the relevent section from the final draft which I was sent 5/10/08
7. Open Forum
Rotten fixed gear was discussed. Pegs v fixed bolts v no pegs or bolts - should corroded fixed protection be replaced / should pegs be removed after climbing / should a peg be replaced if it disappears? The meeting overall agreed:
„X The BMC need to educate visitors to the north coast of Devon that fixed equipment may be in a poor condition.
„X The level of safety around belays should be higher
„X A possibility of no fixed gear on granite
„X Little support for the use of bolts
„X In favour of fixed gear for lower offs (stakes / chains etc). ST to investigate possible funding for this and take to National Council.
„X That information needs to be disseminated as widely as possible.
7. Open Forum
Rotten fixed gear was discussed. Pegs v fixed bolts v no pegs or bolts - should corroded fixed protection be replaced / should pegs be removed after climbing / should a peg be replaced if it disappears? The meeting overall agreed:
„X The BMC need to educate visitors to the north coast of Devon that fixed equipment may be in a poor condition.
„X The level of safety around belays should be higher
„X A possibility of no fixed gear on granite
„X Little support for the use of bolts
„X In favour of fixed gear for lower offs (stakes / chains etc). ST to investigate possible funding for this and take to National Council.
„X That information needs to be disseminated as widely as possible.
In reply to Rich M: For what its worth from a has been who first climbed in the SW in the late 60's. When I did some of the routes in those days they were very bol;d propsitions indeed. On routes like Visions of Janna and Thin wall Special I would have been glad of any pegs the pioneers would have placed and left behind.
Doing them about 5 years ago armed with small friends and micro wires they felt nothing like as serious, gear has evolved a lot since a lot of those early pegs were used and there is a case for not having a 'general' policy but taking cases on their merit.
Doing them about 5 years ago armed with small friends and micro wires they felt nothing like as serious, gear has evolved a lot since a lot of those early pegs were used and there is a case for not having a 'general' policy but taking cases on their merit.
In reply to Team BMC:
I was just thinking, for those not familiar with this area, please don't be put off visiting by this discussion about fixed gear. The vast majority of routes don't have any nor need any fixed gear.
It would be interesting know actually what the scale of the problem is. When someone (Dave Hope?) drew up a list of bolts on the Cornish sea cliffs it turned out they were far more widespread than previously thought (hence direct action was successfully taken to stem the flow, but that's another story).
I certainly wonder how many routes below E6 need pegs, I've climbed quite a lot in this area and sitting here I don't remember many crucial pegs on the routes in my grade range
I was just thinking, for those not familiar with this area, please don't be put off visiting by this discussion about fixed gear. The vast majority of routes don't have any nor need any fixed gear.
It would be interesting know actually what the scale of the problem is. When someone (Dave Hope?) drew up a list of bolts on the Cornish sea cliffs it turned out they were far more widespread than previously thought (hence direct action was successfully taken to stem the flow, but that's another story).
I certainly wonder how many routes below E6 need pegs, I've climbed quite a lot in this area and sitting here I don't remember many crucial pegs on the routes in my grade range
In reply to Team BMC:
Why not put all the routes (with fixed gear) on a wiki, then we can see where the pegs are and either climb the routes without them or replace them as seems best for each route?
Why not put all the routes (with fixed gear) on a wiki, then we can see where the pegs are and either climb the routes without them or replace them as seems best for each route?
In reply to Mike Raine:
Wiki - not a bad idea. I'd happily contribute, and I'd be prepared to set one up once the Christmas madness is over if no-one's done so by then?
"Easy" (sub E6 as you asked for) routes with pegs that I can think of:
Marsland, you've got a peg belay at the top in some stage of disrepair (it was ok in Feb but I'd heard rumours it had gone downhill since then). You've also got the big central peg on Oiseaux/Walking on the Moon. I toproped Oiseaux in Feb (keen to get another route in before having to sprint against the tide), it looks pretty bold anyway, might jump the grade up by a notch if the peg is worthless/removed but I'm not sure whether it makes much difference to overall boldness? Walking on the Moon no idea.
Screda - one of the E3s on the left hand end had a peg in it, not sure if its still there. The E4's description says it has one too and that its crucial, so safe to assume that might go up without.
Speke's Mill - never been on them but routes like Down to a Sunless Sea are heavily peg protected, although I've no idea whether they're worth it any more.
Compass - Crimtyphon heavily relies on its pegs. If they all went, maybe it would be a grade harder - I only remember placing a few bits of trad gear and I'm not sure they protected the crux very well, I was reliant on the (fairly good I thought) pegs for that. Tydomin (the HVS near solo which I think is Tydomin anyway) had one in but its basically redundant as its not that high and there's naff all higher up anyway.
Sharpnose - Fay has pegs on it doesn't it, Diamond Smiles maybe too? Anyway, probably a reasonable number of pegs there.
Maer Cliff - Kleptomaniac has two very elderly specimens in it. One of them flexes a lot. Gear seemed a bit awkward on the route, might be difficult to protect without the pegs (I backed off level withthe top flexing peg because I thought if that went it would get messy).
Theres my starter for ten anyway.........
AJM
Wiki - not a bad idea. I'd happily contribute, and I'd be prepared to set one up once the Christmas madness is over if no-one's done so by then?
"Easy" (sub E6 as you asked for) routes with pegs that I can think of:
Marsland, you've got a peg belay at the top in some stage of disrepair (it was ok in Feb but I'd heard rumours it had gone downhill since then). You've also got the big central peg on Oiseaux/Walking on the Moon. I toproped Oiseaux in Feb (keen to get another route in before having to sprint against the tide), it looks pretty bold anyway, might jump the grade up by a notch if the peg is worthless/removed but I'm not sure whether it makes much difference to overall boldness? Walking on the Moon no idea.
Screda - one of the E3s on the left hand end had a peg in it, not sure if its still there. The E4's description says it has one too and that its crucial, so safe to assume that might go up without.
Speke's Mill - never been on them but routes like Down to a Sunless Sea are heavily peg protected, although I've no idea whether they're worth it any more.
Compass - Crimtyphon heavily relies on its pegs. If they all went, maybe it would be a grade harder - I only remember placing a few bits of trad gear and I'm not sure they protected the crux very well, I was reliant on the (fairly good I thought) pegs for that. Tydomin (the HVS near solo which I think is Tydomin anyway) had one in but its basically redundant as its not that high and there's naff all higher up anyway.
Sharpnose - Fay has pegs on it doesn't it, Diamond Smiles maybe too? Anyway, probably a reasonable number of pegs there.
Maer Cliff - Kleptomaniac has two very elderly specimens in it. One of them flexes a lot. Gear seemed a bit awkward on the route, might be difficult to protect without the pegs (I backed off level withthe top flexing peg because I thought if that went it would get messy).
Theres my starter for ten anyway.........
AJM
In reply to Mike Raine:
Hi Mike
The idea of the article was to encourage people to visit, but to be aware of the issues with the gear.
Lets hope this thread gets more people to visit as they will be wanting to know what all the fuss is about ;0)
WIKI great idea, Rich is due to climb alot on the North Coast this Spring so we can update as often as we can.
Sam
Hi Mike
The idea of the article was to encourage people to visit, but to be aware of the issues with the gear.
Lets hope this thread gets more people to visit as they will be wanting to know what all the fuss is about ;0)
WIKI great idea, Rich is due to climb alot on the North Coast this Spring so we can update as often as we can.
Sam
In reply to AJM: I think Crimtyphon is a classic example of a route that does not need pegs these days, but may require an upgrade, I have only followed Fay so its difficult to comment but I thought it would seem serious without some fixed pro and woyld require an upgrade. Just my twopenneth.
Oh! and also Desolation Row in the zawn does not need its pegs either, they were so bad when I did it that I didn't even clip them, its bold but OK at the grade.
Oh! and also Desolation Row in the zawn does not need its pegs either, they were so bad when I did it that I didn't even clip them, its bold but OK at the grade.
In reply to AJM: BTW, I also agree about Tydomin, its basically a solo, does not require pegs but needs an upgrade to HVS.
In reply to Al Evans:
The pegs felt obsolete on Fay when I did it. Susspect as mentioned above that this might be the case on many routes.
My general attitude is that the pegs back up my gear and not the opposite as is often mentioned in guidebooks.
It's a difficult issue especially on classics like Eroica as that aid move has a lot of history and many E1 leaders will aspire to it. Who's to say thats not how it should be done these days? With the peg in place it's still possible to free it but the E1 +aid goes when the peg does.
The pegs felt obsolete on Fay when I did it. Susspect as mentioned above that this might be the case on many routes.
My general attitude is that the pegs back up my gear and not the opposite as is often mentioned in guidebooks.
It's a difficult issue especially on classics like Eroica as that aid move has a lot of history and many E1 leaders will aspire to it. Who's to say thats not how it should be done these days? With the peg in place it's still possible to free it but the E1 +aid goes when the peg does.
In reply to DaveHK: I think Mike Raine's answer to the Eroica situation is correct, how many would suggest that the two pegs on Cenotaph Corner should be replaced and considered as aid as the accepted way of doing it?
In reply to Team BMC: I think that the routes with pegs in them should have the ropey pegs replaced by stainless steel ones or by bolts. The first acensionists put the pegs in and that, for me, is that. Different for aid pegs as they, I think, should go if the route is ascended without them. That means Eroica would stay lost from the E1 grade which is a pity.
Chris
Chris
In reply to Team BMC: Wiki sounds great, or it could simply be in conjunction with the logbook system on here - I moderate most of the Culm crags and check for updates regularly. Another worthwhile E5 - "Penelope..." at Compass, Lee (the first ascencionist) has removed the pegs before they rusted out, so people need to replace them on ab before an ascent. Stu Bradbury has replaced the pegs on a number of routes and cleaned them up before climbing them - I'll see if I can get details of what and when from him.
Also Iain Peters (CC) is preparing an interim guide for the whole of Cornwall, Devon and Lundy, so an info also ought to be forwarded to him as well.
Also Iain Peters (CC) is preparing an interim guide for the whole of Cornwall, Devon and Lundy, so an info also ought to be forwarded to him as well.
In reply to AJM:
Also at Compass (or Bude Pillars) the pegs on Brainchild are a mess, I was gonna try this last time I was there but did Borderline instead and looked down Brainchild from the top. Glad I didn't do it cause the pegs looked pretty useless as I remember them, I suspect it would be bloody hard to hang around getting gear in instead of those pegs at the top and I'm not sure you'd get anything decent either.
The pegs have been removed on Penelope... at Compass as well, to stop them turning into a mess and ruining the route. This and Brainchild can be re-pegged easily from the top if required and the pegs removed again but I guess there's only so many times you can do that.
Also at Compass (or Bude Pillars) the pegs on Brainchild are a mess, I was gonna try this last time I was there but did Borderline instead and looked down Brainchild from the top. Glad I didn't do it cause the pegs looked pretty useless as I remember them, I suspect it would be bloody hard to hang around getting gear in instead of those pegs at the top and I'm not sure you'd get anything decent either.
The pegs have been removed on Penelope... at Compass as well, to stop them turning into a mess and ruining the route. This and Brainchild can be re-pegged easily from the top if required and the pegs removed again but I guess there's only so many times you can do that.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Hi Mark, beat me to it! I should really read threads before replying to them!
Hi Mark, beat me to it! I should really read threads before replying to them!
In reply to Matt Vigg: Cheers mate - I had heard that the pegs on Brainchild had been replaced, uncertain about this though. Anyway, I'll hold your ropes next time you're home (if you're allowed out between changing nappies).
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Hi Mark,
To find the meeting minutes, search under the area you want (SW in this case) then click on "previous meetings" . This gives you a list of meetings with agendas and minutes as pdfs. Click on the one you want, Old Smith Inn 06/09/08.
I though this was a bit clunky and hard to find as well - will mention it to the BMC webmaster. I've got a feeling that the minutes live in a part of the old site which has been integrated into the new one.
Hope this helps
Hi Mark,
To find the meeting minutes, search under the area you want (SW in this case) then click on "previous meetings" . This gives you a list of meetings with agendas and minutes as pdfs. Click on the one you want, Old Smith Inn 06/09/08.
I though this was a bit clunky and hard to find as well - will mention it to the BMC webmaster. I've got a feeling that the minutes live in a part of the old site which has been integrated into the new one.
Hope this helps
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Thanks, I'll make sure I save up some climbing credits before then....
It was several months ago now that I looked at Brainchild so things may well have changed, sounds like a wiki is a good plan.
Thanks, I'll make sure I save up some climbing credits before then....
It was several months ago now that I looked at Brainchild so things may well have changed, sounds like a wiki is a good plan.
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
Thanks just tried that - got "error opening this document, file cannot be found" could easily be a problem at this end though.
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> To find the meeting minutes, search under the area you want (SW in this case) then click on "previous meetings" . This gives you a list of meetings with agendas and minutes as pdfs. Click on the one you want, Old Smith Inn 06/09/08.
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> To find the meeting minutes, search under the area you want (SW in this case) then click on "previous meetings" . This gives you a list of meetings with agendas and minutes as pdfs. Click on the one you want, Old Smith Inn 06/09/08.
Thanks just tried that - got "error opening this document, file cannot be found" could easily be a problem at this end though.
In reply to Rich M:
>Stripping all fix gear sounds like great fun, almost new routing, but surely that´s elitist
Oh for God's sake you silly little man.
jcm
>Stripping all fix gear sounds like great fun, almost new routing, but surely that´s elitist
Oh for God's sake you silly little man.
jcm
"Rotting fixed gear, missing pegs, guide books out of date, no stakes to be found for belay stations and dirty routes that no one wants to climb anymore. Not the conditions I've been used too after living on the Costa Blanca for eight years. Just what has happened to one of the most spectacular areas of climbing Britain has to offer?"
- Well go back there and climb on your bolts. sea cliffs are about adventure - and that means dealing with the unexpected, using your climbing skills to get you up and down safely, lets not over sanitize our sport! As for pegs - get rid of them and dont place anymore!
Rory
- Well go back there and climb on your bolts. sea cliffs are about adventure - and that means dealing with the unexpected, using your climbing skills to get you up and down safely, lets not over sanitize our sport! As for pegs - get rid of them and dont place anymore!
Rory
>In sea cliffs are about adventure - and that means dealing with the unexpected, using your climbing skills to get you up and down safely, lets not over sanitize our sport! As for pegs - get rid of them and dont place anymore!
>
> Rory
I'm afraid you are showing your ignorance in suggesting getting rid of pegs on the Culm - definately a vital part of a serious Culm climber's rack. (Getting rid of them on granite is a different matter entirely.> Rory
Fair enough - then take your own hammer and pegs and dont really on old descriptions and others fixed gear!
In reply to The Rorster:
In response to the comments above about a wiki being useful. I set one up a few months ago and its usefulness was discussed in a couple of posts on UKC.
However I spoke to Dave Henderson about it at the time (who runs the existing excellent SW javu website) and his opinion was that he'd prefer to keep all information under the javu banner, rather than disseminating SW information over different sites, so I haven't developed the site any further. He talked about setting up some interactive wiki-type pages on the Javu site when he has the time, but maybe we should use my wiki in the meantime to record some of the useful information being given in posts like these?
The initial wiki is here:
http://southwestclimbing.wetpaint.com/
In response to the comments above about a wiki being useful. I set one up a few months ago and its usefulness was discussed in a couple of posts on UKC.
However I spoke to Dave Henderson about it at the time (who runs the existing excellent SW javu website) and his opinion was that he'd prefer to keep all information under the javu banner, rather than disseminating SW information over different sites, so I haven't developed the site any further. He talked about setting up some interactive wiki-type pages on the Javu site when he has the time, but maybe we should use my wiki in the meantime to record some of the useful information being given in posts like these?
The initial wiki is here:
http://southwestclimbing.wetpaint.com/
In reply to Chris_Mellor:
Chris,
You obviously haven't been party to the various threads this year about stainless steel pegs. They don't exist. No-one has any in manufacture and even if they did they still have numerous disadvantages.
Bolt Products run by regular UKC poster Jim Titt has various fully developed and tested prototypes he could manufacture but only at a very high cost.
> (In reply to BMC Office) I think that the routes with pegs in them should have the ropey pegs replaced by stainless steel ones or by bolts.
Chris,
You obviously haven't been party to the various threads this year about stainless steel pegs. They don't exist. No-one has any in manufacture and even if they did they still have numerous disadvantages.
Bolt Products run by regular UKC poster Jim Titt has various fully developed and tested prototypes he could manufacture but only at a very high cost.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Any details please (like how much)?
> (In reply to eroica64)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Bolt Products run by regular UKC poster Jim Titt has various fully developed and tested prototypes he could manufacture but only at a very high cost.
Any details please (like how much)?
In reply to cornishben:
How useful is a Wiki (never having used one)?
Effectively, we already have a system up and running here on UKC - anyone can contribute - routes, details new routes, pegs whatever, why re-invent the wheel?
> (In reply to The Rorster)
> In response to the comments above about a wiki being useful. I set one up a few months ago and its usefulness was discussed in a couple of posts on UKC.
> ..
>
> The initial wiki is here:
> http://southwestclimbing.wetpaint.com/
> In response to the comments above about a wiki being useful. I set one up a few months ago and its usefulness was discussed in a couple of posts on UKC.
> ..
>
> The initial wiki is here:
> http://southwestclimbing.wetpaint.com/
How useful is a Wiki (never having used one)?
Effectively, we already have a system up and running here on UKC - anyone can contribute - routes, details new routes, pegs whatever, why re-invent the wheel?
In reply to Mark Kemball: I think one of the key benefits is not having to drawl through long posts of heated debate/rants/insults and the like on UKC to find out if a peg is in a route or not.
However I agree they only work if people actively update them. The North Wales slate wiki is a good example.
However I agree they only work if people actively update them. The North Wales slate wiki is a good example.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Well possibly, but certainly not left in-situ. I consider myself a serious Culm climber (and a climber of some serious Culm!) and I've never placed a peg.
The pegs are definitely not needed on Fay. A public-spirited individual should attempt remove them before they rust away completely.
In reply to Matt Vigg:
Quite (see my last post).
Good one. The way forward.
> I'm afraid you are showing your ignorance in suggesting getting rid of pegs on the Culm - definately a vital part of a serious Culm climber's rack.
Well possibly, but certainly not left in-situ. I consider myself a serious Culm climber (and a climber of some serious Culm!) and I've never placed a peg.
The pegs are definitely not needed on Fay. A public-spirited individual should attempt remove them before they rust away completely.
In reply to Matt Vigg:
> Also at Compass (or Bude Pillars) the pegs on Brainchild are a mess, I was gonna try this last time I was there but did Borderline instead and looked down Brainchild from the top.
Quite (see my last post).
> The pegs have been removed on Penelope... at Compass as well, to stop them turning into a mess and ruining the route.
Good one. The way forward.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
The Gogarth wiki is superb: http://gogarth.wetpaint.com/ and went some way to make up for the shameful lack of an up-to-date guide. I only wish it had been in existence 10 years ago when I had some chance of getting up a few of the routes in it!
In an less frequented area like the north coast, where paper guide updates will be once a decade if we're lucky, on-line guides like this are clearly the way forwards. Dave Henderson may well wish to keep the info. on his site but Ben has got off his proverbial and created something. I suggest we support it.
> How useful is a Wiki (never having used one)?
The Gogarth wiki is superb: http://gogarth.wetpaint.com/ and went some way to make up for the shameful lack of an up-to-date guide. I only wish it had been in existence 10 years ago when I had some chance of getting up a few of the routes in it!
In an less frequented area like the north coast, where paper guide updates will be once a decade if we're lucky, on-line guides like this are clearly the way forwards. Dave Henderson may well wish to keep the info. on his site but Ben has got off his proverbial and created something. I suggest we support it.
In reply to Mark Kemball: Have a read of http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=306046&v=1#x4522659 You can email Jim if you're really that interested.
In reply to cornishben:
Misunderstanding here - the forums would be usless for this purpose but the logbook system, which anyone can add extra info to a route description and which is moderated to remove to get rid of dross answers the problem perfectly.
> (In reply to Mark Kemball) I think one of the key benefits is not having to drawl through long posts of heated debate/rants/insults and the like on UKC to find out if a peg is in a route or not.
>
>
Misunderstanding here - the forums would be usless for this purpose but the logbook system, which anyone can add extra info to a route description and which is moderated to remove to get rid of dross answers the problem perfectly.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
This wouldn't be my prefered option, but it would be fun!
I take it you are too scared to try that option.
Rich
PS how's that for a "cock showing contest" ;0)
This wouldn't be my prefered option, but it would be fun!
I take it you are too scared to try that option.
Rich
PS how's that for a "cock showing contest" ;0)
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Hi Mark this is their web site http://www.bolt-products.com/
You around for Xmas from a drink.
Rich
Hi Mark this is their web site http://www.bolt-products.com/
You around for Xmas from a drink.
Rich
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Hi Mark,
Newly published (today!) report on pegs: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2887
Lots of food for thought, and probably no single answer to the ongoing issue. There seems to be a wide spread of views on this issue, from the replace pegs with bolts view (a definite minority!) to the remove and regrade without. It's worth noting that when Pearson did Walk of Life, he had to grapple with the same issue - try to replace the rotting pegs from previous attempts/lines or clean up the route and do it without. Its interesting that he chose the latter...
Hi Mark,
Newly published (today!) report on pegs: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2887
Lots of food for thought, and probably no single answer to the ongoing issue. There seems to be a wide spread of views on this issue, from the replace pegs with bolts view (a definite minority!) to the remove and regrade without. It's worth noting that when Pearson did Walk of Life, he had to grapple with the same issue - try to replace the rotting pegs from previous attempts/lines or clean up the route and do it without. Its interesting that he chose the latter...
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC: Dan, thanks for that link. I had already read the text on Jim's website but it's great for it to get wider dissemination.
If you don't mind I think it's worth quoting your conclusion here, especially the final sentence:
The view of the Technical Committee, based on earlier work and taking this report into account, is that pegs should be considered as leader placed protection in the same way as nuts and cams. In other words, only the person placing the peg can have any real idea about how much security it provides. Obviously this relies on individual experience and judgement to have any great accuracy. Pegs should not be relied upon for semi-permanent placements because of their inherent unreliability and variability. Where ethics allow, only bolts or chains are suitable for semi-permanent protection or anchors.
In the view of the Technical Committee it would be unwise for the BMC to provide pegs to be used as anchors for the reasons outlined above.
Regardless of the longer term issue of pegs there are still some belay and abseil anchors where chains and stakes or new static rope and mallions are needed this can certainly be addressed in the shorter term.
If you don't mind I think it's worth quoting your conclusion here, especially the final sentence:
The view of the Technical Committee, based on earlier work and taking this report into account, is that pegs should be considered as leader placed protection in the same way as nuts and cams. In other words, only the person placing the peg can have any real idea about how much security it provides. Obviously this relies on individual experience and judgement to have any great accuracy. Pegs should not be relied upon for semi-permanent placements because of their inherent unreliability and variability. Where ethics allow, only bolts or chains are suitable for semi-permanent protection or anchors.
In the view of the Technical Committee it would be unwise for the BMC to provide pegs to be used as anchors for the reasons outlined above.
Regardless of the longer term issue of pegs there are still some belay and abseil anchors where chains and stakes or new static rope and mallions are needed this can certainly be addressed in the shorter term.
In reply to Al Evans:
Crimtyphon - dunno, one of those routes which is very popular with the pegs but would be far less so without them. An upgrade probably needed if the pegs go, but my memory (about 2.5 years back) is that there really isn't much trad gear available between the pegs and it would be pretty scary without them. It "doesn't need pegs" only if you are happy to risk some serious lob potential off the crux (or at least where I found the crux to be - moving up from the pocket you reach after moving left, part way up). Maybe thats the way we want to go, who knows.....
Not done Desolation Row or Fay. Remember my mate saying the pegs on Fay were pretty rubbish though....
Tydomin - hasn't it always been HVS? It is in the current guide, and it is in SW Climbs too which is hardly a new guide. If it were ever VS it would certainly be a very bold one, even with two good pegs (which SWC suggests it has had at some points as I remember)
AJM
Crimtyphon - dunno, one of those routes which is very popular with the pegs but would be far less so without them. An upgrade probably needed if the pegs go, but my memory (about 2.5 years back) is that there really isn't much trad gear available between the pegs and it would be pretty scary without them. It "doesn't need pegs" only if you are happy to risk some serious lob potential off the crux (or at least where I found the crux to be - moving up from the pocket you reach after moving left, part way up). Maybe thats the way we want to go, who knows.....
Not done Desolation Row or Fay. Remember my mate saying the pegs on Fay were pretty rubbish though....
Tydomin - hasn't it always been HVS? It is in the current guide, and it is in SW Climbs too which is hardly a new guide. If it were ever VS it would certainly be a very bold one, even with two good pegs (which SWC suggests it has had at some points as I remember)
AJM
In reply to AJM:
On the topo in the 1988 guide it is VS, though I checked the text and its HVS there.
"Nowhere too difficult but protection is more apparent than real, the in situ pegs at the time of writing are for decoration purposes only"
Personally I love it but after the first time I did it I've always regarded it as a solo!
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> Tydomin - hasn't it always been HVS? It is in the current guide, and it is in SW Climbs too which is hardly a new guide. If it were ever VS it would certainly be a very bold one, even with two good pegs (which SWC suggests it has had at some points as I remember)
>
> AJM
> Tydomin - hasn't it always been HVS? It is in the current guide, and it is in SW Climbs too which is hardly a new guide. If it were ever VS it would certainly be a very bold one, even with two good pegs (which SWC suggests it has had at some points as I remember)
>
> AJM
On the topo in the 1988 guide it is VS, though I checked the text and its HVS there.
"Nowhere too difficult but protection is more apparent than real, the in situ pegs at the time of writing are for decoration purposes only"
Personally I love it but after the first time I did it I've always regarded it as a solo!
In reply to Al Evans:
It is a good route, I enjoyed it.
I had a thought about the Wiki vs UKC Logbooks query that Mark K (I think?) was raising above - if I want to go to a crag then its going to be a lot quicker to check the peg status of all the routes at once rather than having to check in the guide which have pegs and select them individually one at a time on the logbooks to find out.
Imagine if you wanted to go to Compass for example it'd be quicker to check the Compass page of a wiki, which if it got off he ground could contain the new routes, any changes/regrades to current routes and info on the state of the pegs on Crimtyphon and Tydomin (and others) than to have to check in the guide which routes have pegs and then select the two routes individually in the logbooks and then check details of any others that weren't in the guide in either the logs or Javu or similar.........
I'm also amazed at how coherent last night's post was, after a "since lunchtime" drinking session I'm quite pleased
AJM
It is a good route, I enjoyed it.
I had a thought about the Wiki vs UKC Logbooks query that Mark K (I think?) was raising above - if I want to go to a crag then its going to be a lot quicker to check the peg status of all the routes at once rather than having to check in the guide which have pegs and select them individually one at a time on the logbooks to find out.
Imagine if you wanted to go to Compass for example it'd be quicker to check the Compass page of a wiki, which if it got off he ground could contain the new routes, any changes/regrades to current routes and info on the state of the pegs on Crimtyphon and Tydomin (and others) than to have to check in the guide which routes have pegs and then select the two routes individually in the logbooks and then check details of any others that weren't in the guide in either the logs or Javu or similar.........
I'm also amazed at how coherent last night's post was, after a "since lunchtime" drinking session I'm quite pleased
AJM
In reply to AJM: And of course a Wiki can be continually updated unlike a guide!
In reply to AJM:
In their current (late Sept 2008) condition I wouldn't trust the lower pegs on Crimtyphon even with my limited weight: very very rusty. The highest one is bigger and seems to have 'more life' in it.
I will freely admit belaying climbingpixie on this route was the most scared I've been on the 'blunt' end of the rope for a looooong time! She was completely psyched for it but the rock was still damp!!
There are definately only two pieces of trad gear on this route: one is good, but rapidly receedes from usefulness (!) and the other is possibly good....
With no pegs: E4 5b? The crux would be unprotected and result in a groundfall...
I'm fully aware that like for like replacement can only work for so long, and even then only if its done in a timely manner (i.e. before the existing peg becomes an unremovable stub of rust), but it does feel like the only viable thing we have at the moment. As it is Julie and I spent an entire week on the Culm in generally very good weather and only saw other climbers at Lower Sharpnose... feels like its already a backwater Maybe JPs recent excursion into double-figure E territory can re-kindle interest???
(We also had one day at Baggy - it was heaving! No-one on anything harder than HVS though)
PP.
In their current (late Sept 2008) condition I wouldn't trust the lower pegs on Crimtyphon even with my limited weight: very very rusty. The highest one is bigger and seems to have 'more life' in it.
I will freely admit belaying climbingpixie on this route was the most scared I've been on the 'blunt' end of the rope for a looooong time! She was completely psyched for it but the rock was still damp!!
There are definately only two pieces of trad gear on this route: one is good, but rapidly receedes from usefulness (!) and the other is possibly good....
With no pegs: E4 5b? The crux would be unprotected and result in a groundfall...
I'm fully aware that like for like replacement can only work for so long, and even then only if its done in a timely manner (i.e. before the existing peg becomes an unremovable stub of rust), but it does feel like the only viable thing we have at the moment. As it is Julie and I spent an entire week on the Culm in generally very good weather and only saw other climbers at Lower Sharpnose... feels like its already a backwater Maybe JPs recent excursion into double-figure E territory can re-kindle interest???
(We also had one day at Baggy - it was heaving! No-one on anything harder than HVS though)
PP.
In reply to PontiusPirate:
I have vague recollections of three bits of trad gear - two on the lower (hard) part of the route and one somewhere quite high up where the climbing eases off. Remember them all being fairly decent, just as you say a bit distant.
Shame the pegs have got worse - 2 and a half years back they didn't look too bad. I certainly recall being happy that the twin pegs below the crux would have held me sliding onto them, since they the force would be pretty well split between them and you'd be slithering anyway.
The Culm is a quiet place, but I'm not going to complain about that........ I was at Baggy at August Bank Hol several years ago and only saw about 4 parties all day.
My experience with the higher grades is very much limited, but I'd have thought for E4 5b you'd have to have some pretty sustained 5b climbing with no gear, and possibly some suspect rock too? Crimtyphon has lots of rests and isn't that sustained, so even gearless I'd have thought it couldn't go higher than E3 could it? Still wouldn't get anywhere near as much traffic, which is a shame because its got some great climbing on it.
AJM
I have vague recollections of three bits of trad gear - two on the lower (hard) part of the route and one somewhere quite high up where the climbing eases off. Remember them all being fairly decent, just as you say a bit distant.
Shame the pegs have got worse - 2 and a half years back they didn't look too bad. I certainly recall being happy that the twin pegs below the crux would have held me sliding onto them, since they the force would be pretty well split between them and you'd be slithering anyway.
The Culm is a quiet place, but I'm not going to complain about that........ I was at Baggy at August Bank Hol several years ago and only saw about 4 parties all day.
My experience with the higher grades is very much limited, but I'd have thought for E4 5b you'd have to have some pretty sustained 5b climbing with no gear, and possibly some suspect rock too? Crimtyphon has lots of rests and isn't that sustained, so even gearless I'd have thought it couldn't go higher than E3 could it? Still wouldn't get anywhere near as much traffic, which is a shame because its got some great climbing on it.
AJM
In reply to PontiusPirate:
I actually thought the pegs seemed in reasonable nick, much better than I'd expected. I'd have trusted them with bodyweight and probably even a fall, given that many of them are doubled up. It's solid rock and with loads of rests, it was very soft at E2 even with pegs of dubious provenance. If the pegs were replaced and you knew at the bottom they were trustworthy it would be a pretty easy E1. Without the pegs it could well just go at a stiffer and scarier E2, especially since the proposition of setting off up a the route without them would probably not be that much worse than setting off up it without any idea of what state they're in.
I actually thought the pegs seemed in reasonable nick, much better than I'd expected. I'd have trusted them with bodyweight and probably even a fall, given that many of them are doubled up. It's solid rock and with loads of rests, it was very soft at E2 even with pegs of dubious provenance. If the pegs were replaced and you knew at the bottom they were trustworthy it would be a pretty easy E1. Without the pegs it could well just go at a stiffer and scarier E2, especially since the proposition of setting off up a the route without them would probably not be that much worse than setting off up it without any idea of what state they're in.
In reply to climbingpixie:
That's it... they'd be ok with _your_ bodyweight, not mine!
I know you said that you thought they were ok at the time.
I do need to climb it myself to form a proper judgement though... my current view is coloured by the fact that it looked thin and blank and hard to read and I was being unduly anxious about you leading it in the conditions we had that day, and having to second it damn quick before the tide cut us off! Doesn't diminish the fact that I think it was a damn fine lead (and the climbing is very good too)
I *believe* it used to be graded E1...
...btw, feel free to call be a big girls blouse - I'm well aware of that fact lol!!!!
PP.
That's it... they'd be ok with _your_ bodyweight, not mine!
I know you said that you thought they were ok at the time.
I do need to climb it myself to form a proper judgement though... my current view is coloured by the fact that it looked thin and blank and hard to read and I was being unduly anxious about you leading it in the conditions we had that day, and having to second it damn quick before the tide cut us off! Doesn't diminish the fact that I think it was a damn fine lead (and the climbing is very good too)
I *believe* it used to be graded E1...
...btw, feel free to call be a big girls blouse - I'm well aware of that fact lol!!!!
PP.
In reply to PontiusPirate: It can't possibly be more than E1 with the pegs surely, E2 without, but Pixie has a good head.
In reply to PontiusPirate:
btw - I meant _lead_ it myself when I typed "climb it myself" its 2::30 pm and I'm still nt awake...
PP.
btw - I meant _lead_ it myself when I typed "climb it myself" its 2::30 pm and I'm still nt awake...
PP.
In reply to PontiusPirate:
Big girl's blouse
I haven't done enough on the Culm to know the intracacies of the peg situation but I do think we should be moving away from fixed gear, particularly on easier (sub-E5) routes and on sea cliffs where they have a very limited lifespan anyway. So in principle I would be for their removal and them not being replaced, with routes being upgraded to reflect this if necessary. Sooner or later the placement will be buggered and the route will have to be done without them anyway.
Not done Eroica but I guess an argument could be made for routes where the presence of a peg for aid significantly alters the quality of the climbing, as opposed to just the protection. Obviously people who've done it are in a much better position to comment. It's on my wishlist to climbg though, with or without the peg, and if the lack of it means I have to wait a bit longer until I'm good enough then so be it.
Big girl's blouse
I haven't done enough on the Culm to know the intracacies of the peg situation but I do think we should be moving away from fixed gear, particularly on easier (sub-E5) routes and on sea cliffs where they have a very limited lifespan anyway. So in principle I would be for their removal and them not being replaced, with routes being upgraded to reflect this if necessary. Sooner or later the placement will be buggered and the route will have to be done without them anyway.
Not done Eroica but I guess an argument could be made for routes where the presence of a peg for aid significantly alters the quality of the climbing, as opposed to just the protection. Obviously people who've done it are in a much better position to comment. It's on my wishlist to climbg though, with or without the peg, and if the lack of it means I have to wait a bit longer until I'm good enough then so be it.
In reply to Team BMC:
Thanks for that Rich, but I do think that there needs to be some closure on the subject as Andy March and I need to get down to some serious writing!
Accordingly I will include in the guide a brief appraisal of the on-going debate on pegs in SW Seacliffs that will take into account all the views expressed both here and on other UKC threads.
I believe moving towards a peg-free ethic on Cornish granite should be promoted especially on routes up to the present on-sight ground up norm of E6 and preferably beyond.
For the rest of the D&C coast, the most important thing is to get people on the routes, whether they have pegs or not. There's little point in ethical purity if the climbs themselves never get any ascents.
I am in favour of not replacing pegs where alternative protection exists, and that if pegs are placed on a first ascent they should be removed.
We are dealing here with one of the most varied and adventurous climbing regions in Europe and it's worth noting that the adventure element is present throughout all the grades. As long as there is honesty about how routes are climbed and described, acknowledgment that these Atlantic seacliffs should not be brought down to the lowest common denominator and an awareness that we have to share our climbing with fragile and often threatened eco-systems I think that the New Routes Supplement can serve as a blueprint for the future.
What Andy and I hope to achieve is a publication that will remind climbers that there's a huge amount of enjoyment to be had whatever your standard. I agree totally with the spirit behind Mike Raine's and duncan's comments. I'm sure we'll get there but it may take a year or two and a few rust stains on the rock before we do!
The wiki is an excellent idea, and I'm working with Tony Scott, the CC web manager on ways of making information available more readily. The CC do have a new routes section on their website which is open to all, and Dave Henderson has generously agreed to allow us to use his excellent website where necessary.
Finally, on the weekend of 3 and 4 January anyone interested in helping with the new guide is welcome to meet up for a day (Saturday) on The Culm or Sunday on Cornish granite. Maybe see some of you there. You can get in touch via UKC or the CC website
Thanks for that Rich, but I do think that there needs to be some closure on the subject as Andy March and I need to get down to some serious writing!
Accordingly I will include in the guide a brief appraisal of the on-going debate on pegs in SW Seacliffs that will take into account all the views expressed both here and on other UKC threads.
I believe moving towards a peg-free ethic on Cornish granite should be promoted especially on routes up to the present on-sight ground up norm of E6 and preferably beyond.
For the rest of the D&C coast, the most important thing is to get people on the routes, whether they have pegs or not. There's little point in ethical purity if the climbs themselves never get any ascents.
I am in favour of not replacing pegs where alternative protection exists, and that if pegs are placed on a first ascent they should be removed.
We are dealing here with one of the most varied and adventurous climbing regions in Europe and it's worth noting that the adventure element is present throughout all the grades. As long as there is honesty about how routes are climbed and described, acknowledgment that these Atlantic seacliffs should not be brought down to the lowest common denominator and an awareness that we have to share our climbing with fragile and often threatened eco-systems I think that the New Routes Supplement can serve as a blueprint for the future.
What Andy and I hope to achieve is a publication that will remind climbers that there's a huge amount of enjoyment to be had whatever your standard. I agree totally with the spirit behind Mike Raine's and duncan's comments. I'm sure we'll get there but it may take a year or two and a few rust stains on the rock before we do!
The wiki is an excellent idea, and I'm working with Tony Scott, the CC web manager on ways of making information available more readily. The CC do have a new routes section on their website which is open to all, and Dave Henderson has generously agreed to allow us to use his excellent website where necessary.
Finally, on the weekend of 3 and 4 January anyone interested in helping with the new guide is welcome to meet up for a day (Saturday) on The Culm or Sunday on Cornish granite. Maybe see some of you there. You can get in touch via UKC or the CC website
In reply to PontiusPirate:
Would Crimtyphon without pegs really be a grade harder than Big Business at Upton Slabs? That said, it depends how many pegs are used on Big Business these days (and on what its current state of decomposition is).
> (In reply to AJM)
>
> With no pegs: E4 5b? The crux would be unprotected and result in a groundfall...
>
>
> With no pegs: E4 5b? The crux would be unprotected and result in a groundfall...
>
>
Would Crimtyphon without pegs really be a grade harder than Big Business at Upton Slabs? That said, it depends how many pegs are used on Big Business these days (and on what its current state of decomposition is).
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Crymtyphon would be more serious without the first peg, but there are Friend placements at the obvious niche, and small wires thereafter. E2 would probably be a little too low, so E3 5b. Tydomin is certainly bold in it's upper half but the holds are very positive. It's a soft touch HVS, but then every crag needs at least one!
Big Business (and Broken English) has suffered a major rock fall at the base. The start now looks loose and relatively unprotected. There are a couple of pegs higher up but they look suspiciously like my originals and should be ignored. I will definitely be giving it a dagger in the Supplement! Grade? maybe E4, but I would strongly advise a quick ab to check it out.
There may well be a case for using the MXS or XS on routes like this, as is done on the Lleyn and previously on the more 'adventurous' routes on this coast. Wreckers is another prime example of a full-on adventure that defies normal grading.
> (In reply to PontiusPirate)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Would Crimtyphon without pegs really be a grade harder than Big Business at Upton Slabs? That said, it depends how many pegs are used on Big Business these days (and on what its current state of decomposition is).
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Would Crimtyphon without pegs really be a grade harder than Big Business at Upton Slabs? That said, it depends how many pegs are used on Big Business these days (and on what its current state of decomposition is).
Crymtyphon would be more serious without the first peg, but there are Friend placements at the obvious niche, and small wires thereafter. E2 would probably be a little too low, so E3 5b. Tydomin is certainly bold in it's upper half but the holds are very positive. It's a soft touch HVS, but then every crag needs at least one!
Big Business (and Broken English) has suffered a major rock fall at the base. The start now looks loose and relatively unprotected. There are a couple of pegs higher up but they look suspiciously like my originals and should be ignored. I will definitely be giving it a dagger in the Supplement! Grade? maybe E4, but I would strongly advise a quick ab to check it out.
There may well be a case for using the MXS or XS on routes like this, as is done on the Lleyn and previously on the more 'adventurous' routes on this coast. Wreckers is another prime example of a full-on adventure that defies normal grading.
In reply to Iain Peters:
One up-date: Rude Nude at Blackchurch doesn't need pegs. I thought it borderline E3/4, somewhat easier than Savage God. The first pitch is much the harder of the two at easy 5c; the top pitch and hence that of The Shrine is a very loose 5a and definitely not 5c. Well worth **.
One up-date: Rude Nude at Blackchurch doesn't need pegs. I thought it borderline E3/4, somewhat easier than Savage God. The first pitch is much the harder of the two at easy 5c; the top pitch and hence that of The Shrine is a very loose 5a and definitely not 5c. Well worth **.
In reply to Iain Peters:
'Originals' plural? It only had one peg in when I did it (at the bulge near the start) although more would certainly have been welcome.
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
> [...]
>
> Big Business (and Broken English) has suffered a major rock fall at the base. The start now looks loose and relatively unprotected. There are a couple of pegs higher up but they look suspiciously like my originals and should be ignored. I will definitely be giving it a dagger in the Supplement! Grade? maybe E4, but I would strongly advise a quick ab to check it out.
> [...]
>
> Big Business (and Broken English) has suffered a major rock fall at the base. The start now looks loose and relatively unprotected. There are a couple of pegs higher up but they look suspiciously like my originals and should be ignored. I will definitely be giving it a dagger in the Supplement! Grade? maybe E4, but I would strongly advise a quick ab to check it out.
'Originals' plural? It only had one peg in when I did it (at the bulge near the start) although more would certainly have been welcome.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
My mistake: I removed one and one was left in. There are two now though. Still wouldn't trust them!
BTW when did you climb it? Since the rockfall?
My mistake: I removed one and one was left in. There are two now though. Still wouldn't trust them!
BTW when did you climb it? Since the rockfall?
In reply to Iain Peters:
No, aeons ago, soon after the first ascent. It left a permanent impression, which is why I'm so clear about the number of pegs! I don't think I've ever been quite so frightened on a route.
No, aeons ago, soon after the first ascent. It left a permanent impression, which is why I'm so clear about the number of pegs! I don't think I've ever been quite so frightened on a route.
In reply to AJM:
I have led DTASS, though more than ten years ago. I recall many knife-blades in horizontal breaks and little else. Perhaps WC Zeros would work instead? A scary prospect. Alternatively could the whole crag be baked to turn the shale into slate then moved to Llanberis? Then presumably it could be bolted without offending anyone ...
> Speke's Mill - never been on them but routes like Down to a Sunless Sea are heavily peg protected, although I've no idea whether they're worth it any more.
I have led DTASS, though more than ten years ago. I recall many knife-blades in horizontal breaks and little else. Perhaps WC Zeros would work instead? A scary prospect. Alternatively could the whole crag be baked to turn the shale into slate then moved to Llanberis? Then presumably it could be bolted without offending anyone ...
In reply to Iain Peters:
I thought it was a brilliant day out, but I really didn't think it was the kind of adventure that needed an MXS grading......... everything I found loose (not a lot, given its reputation, I have to say) was obviously and predictably loose and easily avoidable. I'd recommend it as a first VS to any reasonably solid HS leader who had climbed at the bigger bits of Swanage, for example - the climbing really is very reasonable and you have all day to test as many of the holds as you want..........
I think of XS as being really a very serious grade - if Wreckers is MXS then that gives a totally different impression to me at least. If I heard MXS 4b I'd mentally be thinking "at least HVS" not "soft VS with a few shaky holds".
Obviously if you mean the original central line then I'll bow to your judgement, but certainly the line as described in the current guide isn't half as "character building" as giving it MXS would suggest to me.
AJM
> Wreckers is another prime example of a full-on adventure that defies normal grading.
I thought it was a brilliant day out, but I really didn't think it was the kind of adventure that needed an MXS grading......... everything I found loose (not a lot, given its reputation, I have to say) was obviously and predictably loose and easily avoidable. I'd recommend it as a first VS to any reasonably solid HS leader who had climbed at the bigger bits of Swanage, for example - the climbing really is very reasonable and you have all day to test as many of the holds as you want..........
I think of XS as being really a very serious grade - if Wreckers is MXS then that gives a totally different impression to me at least. If I heard MXS 4b I'd mentally be thinking "at least HVS" not "soft VS with a few shaky holds".
Obviously if you mean the original central line then I'll bow to your judgement, but certainly the line as described in the current guide isn't half as "character building" as giving it MXS would suggest to me.
AJM
In reply to AJM:
I wasn't suggesting that Wreckers should be XS. Quite the opposite! Holds everywhere, even if the odd one rattles. On granite it probably wouldn't be given much more than VDiff/Severe. My suggestion was more directed towards Big Business type routes, where a lowish technical grade doesn't seem to fit with a relatively high E grade. MXS or XS with a 5b tag somehow lets you know that this one will be an adventure.
For me the central question posed in Rich's article is very difficult to answer. Perhaps those of us who have written guides or articles about the region have emphasised the adventure to the detriment of the quality of the climbs themselves. Duncan mentions Rude Nudes, a route that has probably only had a handful of ascents in 20 years, yet he confirms its 2* status despite a loose 5a top pitch. The point I'm trying to make is that anyone competent to lead the 5c first pitch should give it a whirl, without worrying about whether it needs pegs or not, as loose 5a climbing shouldn't tax them technically, and there is something exhilarating about moving confidently in that situation.
Is it a PR job (not an abbreviation for Peg Replacement) that's required, to encourage more people to climb out of their comfort zone, maybe drop a grade until they understand the nature of the rock? Would that be a better option than replacing rotting pegs with bombproof staples or recruiting a large team of fixed gear inspectors who would regularly patrol the crags with lump hammers and SS pegs? I know what my answer would be but whether a new guide and a bit of exposure in the media would persuade enough people to give Baggy or Chudleigh a miss now and again and keep the routes reasonably clean I'm not too sure. Mike Raine calls these crags the "bastion of Trad climbing", but I'd hate to see that phrase become their epitaph.
I wasn't suggesting that Wreckers should be XS. Quite the opposite! Holds everywhere, even if the odd one rattles. On granite it probably wouldn't be given much more than VDiff/Severe. My suggestion was more directed towards Big Business type routes, where a lowish technical grade doesn't seem to fit with a relatively high E grade. MXS or XS with a 5b tag somehow lets you know that this one will be an adventure.
For me the central question posed in Rich's article is very difficult to answer. Perhaps those of us who have written guides or articles about the region have emphasised the adventure to the detriment of the quality of the climbs themselves. Duncan mentions Rude Nudes, a route that has probably only had a handful of ascents in 20 years, yet he confirms its 2* status despite a loose 5a top pitch. The point I'm trying to make is that anyone competent to lead the 5c first pitch should give it a whirl, without worrying about whether it needs pegs or not, as loose 5a climbing shouldn't tax them technically, and there is something exhilarating about moving confidently in that situation.
Is it a PR job (not an abbreviation for Peg Replacement) that's required, to encourage more people to climb out of their comfort zone, maybe drop a grade until they understand the nature of the rock? Would that be a better option than replacing rotting pegs with bombproof staples or recruiting a large team of fixed gear inspectors who would regularly patrol the crags with lump hammers and SS pegs? I know what my answer would be but whether a new guide and a bit of exposure in the media would persuade enough people to give Baggy or Chudleigh a miss now and again and keep the routes reasonably clean I'm not too sure. Mike Raine calls these crags the "bastion of Trad climbing", but I'd hate to see that phrase become their epitaph.
In reply to Team BMC:
In reply to someone, Desolation Row (the one in Great Zawn, right?) certainly doesn't need pegs of any kind.
I can't see two answers to this, really. Bolts are not an option. Nor is carrying and replacing pegs - it's not going to happen. Like-for-like replacement doesn't alter the basic problem. That only leaves the James Pearson option and us all growing some cojones.
jcm
In reply to someone, Desolation Row (the one in Great Zawn, right?) certainly doesn't need pegs of any kind.
I can't see two answers to this, really. Bolts are not an option. Nor is carrying and replacing pegs - it's not going to happen. Like-for-like replacement doesn't alter the basic problem. That only leaves the James Pearson option and us all growing some cojones.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: But, carrying and replacing pegs is a sensible option. I usually take them if I'm out on Culm, generally they stay in the sack but if a route needs them, they're used.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Well fine, I've nothing much against that on culm, though I wonder a bit how sustainable it is. But most people - most casual visitors, anyway - aren't going to do that.
jcm
Well fine, I've nothing much against that on culm, though I wonder a bit how sustainable it is. But most people - most casual visitors, anyway - aren't going to do that.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: That of course is fine, plenty of routes don't need pegs as various people have said, we do need to have up to date info so visitors know which is which. You certainly need to carry them if you're ground up new routing (even at easier grades). I'm concerned that the "ethics police" don't go for a blanket ban on pegs. I think placing and removing on the more obscure routes is probably the way to go - that way the placement will remain usable and given enough time might widen to a microcam placement. As for sustainability, knowing Culm, the route is likely to fall down before this becomes a serious problem, creating yet more new route potential...
In reply to AJM:
That explains a few things, I've got the 'old' guidebook with the original line...pitch 1 certainly didn't feel like a conventional VS to me!
Any thoughts what grade Wrecker's would get without the pegs?
-Would be interesting given that the 2nd belay consists of 3 pegs and a couple of microwires.
Surely there's no way we could get rid of pegs entirely on the Culm. What would happen to belays that rely on them heavily (however rotten they are)?
I'm all for the gradual phasing out of pegs mid-pitch (and the subsequent re-grading of routes). At least people would then have some idea what to expect before setting off. We’d just all need to get bolder!
The alternatives it seems are to carry on as we are now, or start routinely carrying pegs and a hammer (and watch the placements wear).
Swings and roundabouts I suppose.
Dan
> (In reply to Iain Peters)
> [...]
> Obviously if you mean the original central line then I'll bow to your judgement, but certainly the line as described in the current guide isn't half as "character building" as giving it MXS would suggest to me.
> [...]
> Obviously if you mean the original central line then I'll bow to your judgement, but certainly the line as described in the current guide isn't half as "character building" as giving it MXS would suggest to me.
That explains a few things, I've got the 'old' guidebook with the original line...pitch 1 certainly didn't feel like a conventional VS to me!
Any thoughts what grade Wrecker's would get without the pegs?
-Would be interesting given that the 2nd belay consists of 3 pegs and a couple of microwires.
Surely there's no way we could get rid of pegs entirely on the Culm. What would happen to belays that rely on them heavily (however rotten they are)?
I'm all for the gradual phasing out of pegs mid-pitch (and the subsequent re-grading of routes). At least people would then have some idea what to expect before setting off. We’d just all need to get bolder!
The alternatives it seems are to carry on as we are now, or start routinely carrying pegs and a hammer (and watch the placements wear).
Swings and roundabouts I suppose.
Dan
In reply to Iain Peters:
OK - you were talking about giving XS/MXS to routes like Big Business and then added in that you thought Wreckers defied normal grading too - I must have misread your intentions with that.
A set of well presented articles in magazines couldn't harm I suppose. Tricky where to go though - I suppose you start with the more friendly crags and work further inwards? But then I suppose that might spread the traffic from Baggy but only to Marsland, Screda and the others of that ilk, which probably do receive reasonable traffic anyway.....
The grading is difficult - if you tried to make quite a clear distinction between those routes which are simply bold and those which are loose as well via the XS grading you could highlight those routes which to most "normal" climbers might appeal (assuming most climbers don't mind bold climbing on its own at least, which given the ever enduring popularity of the peak solos seems clear), although I'm sure you'd end up having to use the XS grade too widely for it to mean much to the experienced Culmers in terms of which routes were "a bit too loose for the wider world" and "the genuine horrorshows". Even doing this though you would still hit a problem with routes like Rude Nude - its difficult to persuade climbers that loose can be exhilarating (I know I struggle to convince anyone on some of the routes at Blackchurch because everyone just assumed you're joking or mad). Is there a way out of the fact that in all probability adventurous climbing of this type seems to be on the wane at the minute, at least in my perception?
I think the more popular culm crags are probably ok, but I'm dubious as to whether no matter how good a PR job you do there will ever be queues at Blackchurch Main Cliff for example, it just doesn't fit with what most climbers I can think of want from there climbing (there are some obviously, and those are the ones whose phone numbers need retaining for future adventures .
AJM
OK - you were talking about giving XS/MXS to routes like Big Business and then added in that you thought Wreckers defied normal grading too - I must have misread your intentions with that.
A set of well presented articles in magazines couldn't harm I suppose. Tricky where to go though - I suppose you start with the more friendly crags and work further inwards? But then I suppose that might spread the traffic from Baggy but only to Marsland, Screda and the others of that ilk, which probably do receive reasonable traffic anyway.....
The grading is difficult - if you tried to make quite a clear distinction between those routes which are simply bold and those which are loose as well via the XS grading you could highlight those routes which to most "normal" climbers might appeal (assuming most climbers don't mind bold climbing on its own at least, which given the ever enduring popularity of the peak solos seems clear), although I'm sure you'd end up having to use the XS grade too widely for it to mean much to the experienced Culmers in terms of which routes were "a bit too loose for the wider world" and "the genuine horrorshows". Even doing this though you would still hit a problem with routes like Rude Nude - its difficult to persuade climbers that loose can be exhilarating (I know I struggle to convince anyone on some of the routes at Blackchurch because everyone just assumed you're joking or mad). Is there a way out of the fact that in all probability adventurous climbing of this type seems to be on the wane at the minute, at least in my perception?
I think the more popular culm crags are probably ok, but I'm dubious as to whether no matter how good a PR job you do there will ever be queues at Blackchurch Main Cliff for example, it just doesn't fit with what most climbers I can think of want from there climbing (there are some obviously, and those are the ones whose phone numbers need retaining for future adventures .
AJM
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I carried pegs and a hammer on Wreckers, though I didn't feel a need to place one. Similarly on Desolation Row, pegs were so bad I didn't even bother clipping them, but I thought they were unneccessary and did not even consider replacing them. Just in case, it was my habit to carry pegs on culm toutes, but I can't actually remember ever placing one!
> (In reply to BMC Office)
>
> In reply to someone, Desolation Row (the one in Great Zawn, right?) certainly doesn't need pegs of any kind.
>
Nor is carrying and replacing pegs - it's not going to happen. > >
> In reply to someone, Desolation Row (the one in Great Zawn, right?) certainly doesn't need pegs of any kind.
>
> jcm
I carried pegs and a hammer on Wreckers, though I didn't feel a need to place one. Similarly on Desolation Row, pegs were so bad I didn't even bother clipping them, but I thought they were unneccessary and did not even consider replacing them. Just in case, it was my habit to carry pegs on culm toutes, but I can't actually remember ever placing one!
In reply to Mark Kemball:
One of the great attractions of culm, I always thought, was that in some senses the usual rules didn't apply. The main challenge of many of the routes was getting up them safely, rather than ultimate technical difficulty (not that some of them aren't extremely challenging technically). Carrying pegs (or at least having them available) was part of the almost alpine ethos. It was one of the few areas that, if you felt you needed to place a peg, you could do so without waves of disapproval from the ethics police. That said, we usually ended up using fewer pegs than the guidebook or first ascent description suggested but it's nice to be able to make that decision for yourself.
It's not something that would be acceptable on Stanage, but then the depths of Moped Zawn is rather different to Peak suburbia. Even so, all this is only sustainable as long as the crags remain relatively obscure and unfrequented. I'm no longer a culm regular, so I don't know how true this now is.
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) But, carrying and replacing pegs is a sensible option. I usually take them if I'm out on Culm, generally they stay in the sack but if a route needs them, they're used.
One of the great attractions of culm, I always thought, was that in some senses the usual rules didn't apply. The main challenge of many of the routes was getting up them safely, rather than ultimate technical difficulty (not that some of them aren't extremely challenging technically). Carrying pegs (or at least having them available) was part of the almost alpine ethos. It was one of the few areas that, if you felt you needed to place a peg, you could do so without waves of disapproval from the ethics police. That said, we usually ended up using fewer pegs than the guidebook or first ascent description suggested but it's nice to be able to make that decision for yourself.
It's not something that would be acceptable on Stanage, but then the depths of Moped Zawn is rather different to Peak suburbia. Even so, all this is only sustainable as long as the crags remain relatively obscure and unfrequented. I'm no longer a culm regular, so I don't know how true this now is.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Yeah, Dave, but you and Al are dinosaurs, you know. In the future, my prediction is that it ain't going to happen, at least not at all regularly. I've never seen anyone I climb with with a peg, and I don't believe any of them owns one (well OK, except Duncan).
In reply to AJM:
Why would no-one want to climb for example the Archtempter - literally one of the very best routes in the South West?? You need some new climbing friends.
jcm
Yeah, Dave, but you and Al are dinosaurs, you know. In the future, my prediction is that it ain't going to happen, at least not at all regularly. I've never seen anyone I climb with with a peg, and I don't believe any of them owns one (well OK, except Duncan).
In reply to AJM:
Why would no-one want to climb for example the Archtempter - literally one of the very best routes in the South West?? You need some new climbing friends.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Lol, can I be a pterodactyl, then I wont need pegs
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
>
> Yeah, Dave, but you and Al are dinosaurs,
>
> Yeah, Dave, but you and Al are dinosaurs,
Lol, can I be a pterodactyl, then I wont need pegs
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well, that only leaves you with the Pearson testicular approach. For my part, I'd be sorry if the option to place the occasional peg disappeared. As for what 'casual' visitors do 'regularly', that's their business.
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
>
> Yeah, Dave, but you and Al are dinosaurs, you know. In the future, my prediction is that it ain't going to happen, at least not at all regularly. I've never seen anyone I climb with with a peg, and I don't believe any of them owns one (well OK, except Duncan).
>
>
>
> Yeah, Dave, but you and Al are dinosaurs, you know. In the future, my prediction is that it ain't going to happen, at least not at all regularly. I've never seen anyone I climb with with a peg, and I don't believe any of them owns one (well OK, except Duncan).
>
>
Well, that only leaves you with the Pearson testicular approach. For my part, I'd be sorry if the option to place the occasional peg disappeared. As for what 'casual' visitors do 'regularly', that's their business.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Too true, and let's not forget the rest of the Atlantic Coast. I guess that the geology of the region will never lend itself to a single ethos. Locals and new routers will carry pegs and hammers, casual visitors will stick to established routes, and those in between will know the score and be prepared to work it all out en route.
I also hope that redundant and dangerous fixed gear will rot away and not be replaced if alternatives exist, that gradually a fixed gear-free ethic will emerge and extensive gardening of mediocre lines (and I used to be a culprit) will be discouraged.
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
> [...]
>
>
> One of the great attractions of culm, I always thought, was that in some senses the usual rules didn't apply.
> [...]
>
>
> One of the great attractions of culm, I always thought, was that in some senses the usual rules didn't apply.
Too true, and let's not forget the rest of the Atlantic Coast. I guess that the geology of the region will never lend itself to a single ethos. Locals and new routers will carry pegs and hammers, casual visitors will stick to established routes, and those in between will know the score and be prepared to work it all out en route.
I also hope that redundant and dangerous fixed gear will rot away and not be replaced if alternatives exist, that gradually a fixed gear-free ethic will emerge and extensive gardening of mediocre lines (and I used to be a culprit) will be discouraged.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Hi John,
I will always include the odd peg if i'm off on an "adventure". Admitedly I won't generally carry a Hammer, as most of these adventures provide a suitable rock when required.
I think than these softer sea cliffs will always end up taking a few pegs, however these will hopefully be the result of someone trying not to die rather than trying to big up themselves.
Hose
Hi John,
I will always include the odd peg if i'm off on an "adventure". Admitedly I won't generally carry a Hammer, as most of these adventures provide a suitable rock when required.
I think than these softer sea cliffs will always end up taking a few pegs, however these will hopefully be the result of someone trying not to die rather than trying to big up themselves.
Hose
In reply to Team BMC:
Consensus on here would seem to faze out the use of pegs on the Culm.
If pegs are needed then place you're own and remove them (very unlikely to lead to damaging the rock due to very low numbers involved - on the hardest routes they'll sometimes get ascents from most of the people who can do them on the same day as they're usually mates)
If it's felt a peg should be replaced you have a wiki up and running, we've found that on the slate the interested parties usually contribute to these discussions)
Discuss at your next BMC Area meet?
BUT! please don't let everyone think the whole of the Culm is loose and dangerous, it's not there are many fine climbs, which are plenty solid enough and well protected.
Consensus on here would seem to faze out the use of pegs on the Culm.
If pegs are needed then place you're own and remove them (very unlikely to lead to damaging the rock due to very low numbers involved - on the hardest routes they'll sometimes get ascents from most of the people who can do them on the same day as they're usually mates)
If it's felt a peg should be replaced you have a wiki up and running, we've found that on the slate the interested parties usually contribute to these discussions)
Discuss at your next BMC Area meet?
BUT! please don't let everyone think the whole of the Culm is loose and dangerous, it's not there are many fine climbs, which are plenty solid enough and well protected.
In reply to Mike Raine:
Well said. Fixed gear was discussed at the last one and doubtless will be again.
> (In reply to BMC Office)
> Discuss at your next BMC Area meet?
>
> BUT! please don't let everyone think the whole of the Culm is loose and dangerous, it's not there are many fine climbs, which are plenty solid enough and well protected.
> Discuss at your next BMC Area meet?
>
> BUT! please don't let everyone think the whole of the Culm is loose and dangerous, it's not there are many fine climbs, which are plenty solid enough and well protected.
Well said. Fixed gear was discussed at the last one and doubtless will be again.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Between your rather epic description a while back, and that of a good mate also, it sounds like the kind of thing that I definitely want to get on, although I think I'd need to be feeling pretty steady and confident first. Given E3 though - would you say graded E3 for a man more used to more solid things, or still E3 even with a bit of Culm nous.....?
I've found in the past that the best tactic for such things is to find someone capable but knowledge-less and simply tell them they will enjoy it. Its worked before.
Which reminds me, I did have a few people signed up in principle for Skeleton Ridge over on the Isle of Wight, must try and chase that one up too.....
AJM
Between your rather epic description a while back, and that of a good mate also, it sounds like the kind of thing that I definitely want to get on, although I think I'd need to be feeling pretty steady and confident first. Given E3 though - would you say graded E3 for a man more used to more solid things, or still E3 even with a bit of Culm nous.....?
I've found in the past that the best tactic for such things is to find someone capable but knowledge-less and simply tell them they will enjoy it. Its worked before.
Which reminds me, I did have a few people signed up in principle for Skeleton Ridge over on the Isle of Wight, must try and chase that one up too.....
AJM
In reply to several people:
Perhaps it would be illuminating if some of the opinion-voicers here clarified when they last actually (*) climbed in North Devon? Baggy or Wreckers Slab doesn't count. It seems to me that loose talk (no pun intended) about piton-free ascents is easily made if your most recent serious foray in the area was last century ...
* personal disclosure: 2003 at Oldwalls Point, with UKC gear guru TobyA no less; Blackchurch the day before.
Perhaps it would be illuminating if some of the opinion-voicers here clarified when they last actually (*) climbed in North Devon? Baggy or Wreckers Slab doesn't count. It seems to me that loose talk (no pun intended) about piton-free ascents is easily made if your most recent serious foray in the area was last century ...
* personal disclosure: 2003 at Oldwalls Point, with UKC gear guru TobyA no less; Blackchurch the day before.
In reply to tobyfk:
Feb 08 - Vicarage and Marsland
Aug 07 - Carn Gowla (Atlantic Coast granted but similar issues apply) and Screda
Couple of times before that going back to 2005, generally a week or so each year, but sadly I have to be in work today and so exact months and venues are things I haven't the time to look up before going.
AJM
Feb 08 - Vicarage and Marsland
Aug 07 - Carn Gowla (Atlantic Coast granted but similar issues apply) and Screda
Couple of times before that going back to 2005, generally a week or so each year, but sadly I have to be in work today and so exact months and venues are things I haven't the time to look up before going.
AJM
In reply to Al Evans:
By the way, Al, by "North Devon" I meant "North Devon" .. your mention of Desolation Row higher in the thread suggests a certain geographic vagueness
By the way, Al, by "North Devon" I meant "North Devon" .. your mention of Desolation Row higher in the thread suggests a certain geographic vagueness
In reply to tobyfk:
I know North Devon well having climbed there for about 30 years, I mentioned Des Row as an example that there are other areas in the S West with similar problems, I am not the only one on here to have mentioned Bossy!
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> By the way, Al, by "North Devon" I meant "North Devon" .. your mention of Desolation Row higher in the thread suggests a certain geographic vagueness
>
> By the way, Al, by "North Devon" I meant "North Devon" .. your mention of Desolation Row higher in the thread suggests a certain geographic vagueness
I know North Devon well having climbed there for about 30 years, I mentioned Des Row as an example that there are other areas in the S West with similar problems, I am not the only one on here to have mentioned Bossy!
In reply to tobyfk: Several times since 2000, but none more recently than 2004. My last new route there was in 1999. No pegs.
In reply to AJM:
I recall Archtempter as very solid once the vertical soil at the start was overcome .. however the memory is over 25 years old
Likewise Godspell, however that is a route where I'd want to know the pegs were good and I would'nt want to be placing them on the lead
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> Between your rather epic description a while back, and that of a good mate also, it sounds like the kind of thing that I definitely want to get on, although I think I'd need to be feeling pretty steady and confident first. Given E3 though - would you say graded E3 for a man more used to more solid things, or still E3 even with a bit of Culm nous.....?
>
> AJM
>
> Between your rather epic description a while back, and that of a good mate also, it sounds like the kind of thing that I definitely want to get on, although I think I'd need to be feeling pretty steady and confident first. Given E3 though - would you say graded E3 for a man more used to more solid things, or still E3 even with a bit of Culm nous.....?
>
> AJM
I recall Archtempter as very solid once the vertical soil at the start was overcome .. however the memory is over 25 years old
Likewise Godspell, however that is a route where I'd want to know the pegs were good and I would'nt want to be placing them on the lead
In reply to tobyfk: March this year http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=3377 they are my local crags but I've not done much this year at all (family illness).
In reply to tobyfk:
Oops that excludes everything south of and including Sharpnose!
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> By the way, Al, by "North Devon" I meant "North Devon" .. your mention of Desolation Row higher in the thread suggests a certain geographic vagueness
>
> By the way, Al, by "North Devon" I meant "North Devon" .. your mention of Desolation Row higher in the thread suggests a certain geographic vagueness
Oops that excludes everything south of and including Sharpnose!
In reply to AJM:
>Given E3 though - would you say graded E3 for a man more used to more solid things, or still E3 even with a bit of Culm nous.....?
Definitely the former. Only HVS really. I think my epic description was largely confined to post-match events.
Mind you, I don't recall any pegs at all, which just goes to show. Maybe Toby's about to tell me there were two bomber pegs when I did it which I've forgotten and that more recent aspirants will find it a horror show.
Apart from Wreckers and a bit of soling at Compass Point, I think I last climbed on the culm in 2000/2001, although sinc that's also the last time I climbed anywhere, pretty much, I'm not sure what that's got to do with it.
jcm
>Given E3 though - would you say graded E3 for a man more used to more solid things, or still E3 even with a bit of Culm nous.....?
Definitely the former. Only HVS really. I think my epic description was largely confined to post-match events.
Mind you, I don't recall any pegs at all, which just goes to show. Maybe Toby's about to tell me there were two bomber pegs when I did it which I've forgotten and that more recent aspirants will find it a horror show.
Apart from Wreckers and a bit of soling at Compass Point, I think I last climbed on the culm in 2000/2001, although sinc that's also the last time I climbed anywhere, pretty much, I'm not sure what that's got to do with it.
jcm
In reply to Mike Raine:
Yes that struck me when I typed that but "North Devon" is the title of the thread. Anyway, judging from typical UKC banter down the years, the true trad-nazi will dismiss Sharpnose as sport climbing ...
> Oops that excludes everything south of and including Sharpnose!
Yes that struck me when I typed that but "North Devon" is the title of the thread. Anyway, judging from typical UKC banter down the years, the true trad-nazi will dismiss Sharpnose as sport climbing ...
In reply to tobyfk:
Why on earth do you say that?
> (In reply to Mike Raine)
>
>true trad-nazi will dismiss Sharpnose as sport climbing ...>
Why on earth do you say that?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well, yes, but the post match events were quite entertaining.
My friend described the belay as containing 3 pegs. He said that he normally categorises pegs as good or bad, and that these 3 linked together equalled one bad peg. He did have a cam in though too. Once the second reached the stance my friend got the word "so, do you fancy...." before being cut off with a very firm "no".
His description of the top corner was that there were lots of little flakes for your feet which bent like cardboard and had to be kicked back into place so that you could stand up on them.
AJM still in the office.
P.S. Jim - interested in climbing at the weekend? Will is keen.
Well, yes, but the post match events were quite entertaining.
My friend described the belay as containing 3 pegs. He said that he normally categorises pegs as good or bad, and that these 3 linked together equalled one bad peg. He did have a cam in though too. Once the second reached the stance my friend got the word "so, do you fancy...." before being cut off with a very firm "no".
His description of the top corner was that there were lots of little flakes for your feet which bent like cardboard and had to be kicked back into place so that you could stand up on them.
AJM still in the office.
P.S. Jim - interested in climbing at the weekend? Will is keen.
In reply to Al Evans:
I don't, Al. I was implying that others might ... Don't take it too seriously!
> >true trad-nazi will dismiss Sharpnose as sport climbing ...
> Why on earth do you say that?
I don't, Al. I was implying that others might ... Don't take it too seriously!
In reply to tobyfk: did loose women about a month ago
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I guess it seems to me a bit perverse to be egging people on to strip/ not-replace the fixed gear on culm coast routes, and thus - in many cases - render them quite a lot more serious, if you're not actually active in the area and unlikely to be active in the area in the near future. Generally it seems the more nuanced/ pragmatic views on the fixed gear in this thread are coming from people who are currently out there doing the routes. Personally I think their views carry more weight.
> Apart from Wreckers and a bit of soling at Compass Point, I think I last climbed on the culm in 2000/2001, although sinc that's also the last time I climbed anywhere, pretty much, I'm not sure what that's got to do with it.
I guess it seems to me a bit perverse to be egging people on to strip/ not-replace the fixed gear on culm coast routes, and thus - in many cases - render them quite a lot more serious, if you're not actually active in the area and unlikely to be active in the area in the near future. Generally it seems the more nuanced/ pragmatic views on the fixed gear in this thread are coming from people who are currently out there doing the routes. Personally I think their views carry more weight.
In reply to tobyfk:
Of course your right Toby, if someone from Bude replaces all the pegs at Compass Point then good luck to 'em. I doubt anyone will drive down from Sheffield or Llanberis to remove them. The idea of an internet forum however, is to gather opinions and that would seem to be what this one has done quite nicely. I was active on the Culm until four years ago when I moved to Llanberis, I will continue to visit in the future but I have done most of what I'm interested in there, I've added (and will add some more) comments on the south west wiki.
Merry Xmas
Mike
Of course your right Toby, if someone from Bude replaces all the pegs at Compass Point then good luck to 'em. I doubt anyone will drive down from Sheffield or Llanberis to remove them. The idea of an internet forum however, is to gather opinions and that would seem to be what this one has done quite nicely. I was active on the Culm until four years ago when I moved to Llanberis, I will continue to visit in the future but I have done most of what I'm interested in there, I've added (and will add some more) comments on the south west wiki.
Merry Xmas
Mike
In reply to Mike Raine:
Yes probably ... though you wrote: "Consensus on here would seem to faze out the use of pegs on the Culm" higher up on the thread. Perhaps that was a bit of a premature assessment of "consensus"? Personally I think it is very tricky topic. Eradicating pegs obviously has a purist appeal but I'd guess excellent routes like Down to a Sunless Sea would become never-climbed museum pieces if all the pegs were stripped and not replaced. Is that really what people want?
Merry Xmas to you too.
PS I have no local credentials whatsoever ... and indeed am typing 3 time zones distant to the culm coast. That said, I did get married at Crackington Haven ...
> The idea of an internet forum however, is to gather opinions and that would seem to be what this one has done quite nicely.
Yes probably ... though you wrote: "Consensus on here would seem to faze out the use of pegs on the Culm" higher up on the thread. Perhaps that was a bit of a premature assessment of "consensus"? Personally I think it is very tricky topic. Eradicating pegs obviously has a purist appeal but I'd guess excellent routes like Down to a Sunless Sea would become never-climbed museum pieces if all the pegs were stripped and not replaced. Is that really what people want?
Merry Xmas to you too.
PS I have no local credentials whatsoever ... and indeed am typing 3 time zones distant to the culm coast. That said, I did get married at Crackington Haven ...
In reply to tobyfk:
Hopefully threads like this, the interim guide to all the new routes in the two counties due out in the early summer, and a renewed interest in 'adventure' climbing will result in more people venturing beyond Baggy Point.
> (In reply to Mike Raine)
> Eradicating pegs obviously has a purist appeal but I'd guess excellent routes like Down to a Sunless Sea would become never-climbed museum pieces if all the pegs were stripped and not replaced. Is that really what people want?
>
I think you'll find that this will be a very gradual process, unlike the Free The Pass campaign in the 80s. Popular routes which rely on pegs will probably have them replaced, whilst others may well see people removing dangerous relics and either replacing them, finding alternative placements (as in JP's route at Dyer's) or regrading them.> Eradicating pegs obviously has a purist appeal but I'd guess excellent routes like Down to a Sunless Sea would become never-climbed museum pieces if all the pegs were stripped and not replaced. Is that really what people want?
>
Hopefully threads like this, the interim guide to all the new routes in the two counties due out in the early summer, and a renewed interest in 'adventure' climbing will result in more people venturing beyond Baggy Point.
In reply to Team BMC: I have not read all the views offered on this thread. But my opinion is to let time heal the crags, with the help of man at times too. Let the pegs rust and therefore encourage a peg-free ascent. Damaging the rock further by replacing pegs will open cracks and destroy the original route. Eventually after years of continual replacement there will be pockets (Take a trip to Yosemite for the evidence). Climbers will sort themselves out, that's the adventure of the game after all. Abseil stakes I can understand need replacing and checking now and then.
Finally for what its worth...
Sharpnose...
When I did The Monk's Satanic Verses I also climbed all the routes on this wall without the use of the pegs. All on-sight and no falls. I have not reported this,because I did not remove the pegs prior to my ascent (I would have lost my on-sight) My belay-er was my girlfriend at the time, and she only climbed Severe and would not abseil down the wall to tape over the pegs for me. So these routes are possible without the pegs.
I like Ricks Green stakes idea too.
Mark
Finally for what its worth...
Sharpnose...
When I did The Monk's Satanic Verses I also climbed all the routes on this wall without the use of the pegs. All on-sight and no falls. I have not reported this,because I did not remove the pegs prior to my ascent (I would have lost my on-sight) My belay-er was my girlfriend at the time, and she only climbed Severe and would not abseil down the wall to tape over the pegs for me. So these routes are possible without the pegs.
I like Ricks Green stakes idea too.
Mark
In reply to Team BMC:
Did Matchless at Oldwall's Point last weekend. I think that this is exactly the sort of route that people need to get on for them to begin to see the potential down on the Culm. It is, like it says in the book, "solid safe and enjoyable".
The pegs on this route are now redundant. The first is snapped, and whilst the second, which protects the crux, is very worn, I do think that it would hold a fall and it doesn't flex, but there is a much better micro-wire placement just above which protects the crux just as well, if not better.
The approach along the crest is not very nice and it is probably advisable to rope up for this. There are two obvious lower-offs. We used the one at the seaward end of the crest (which looked newer) and it was fine, but it should be noted that it is unidirectional and that you can only safely abseil down the slab from this anchor and NOT down the overhanging face.
Unfortunately, due to the fact that the days are currently a bit short and it was about -3 degrees, we only managed to do the one route in the day. Having said that, in finer temperatures and longer daylight, this route could easily be combined with a trip to the nearby Sharpnose Point in a day. There also seems to be another alternative approach to the base of the cliff via a fisherman's rope down the grassy slopes just north of Moped Zawn. Although it should be said that we didn't try it.
Anyway, it's a great route. Enjoyable and adventurous, steady HVS slab climbing in a great location. Get on it!
Cheers,
Tom
Did Matchless at Oldwall's Point last weekend. I think that this is exactly the sort of route that people need to get on for them to begin to see the potential down on the Culm. It is, like it says in the book, "solid safe and enjoyable".
The pegs on this route are now redundant. The first is snapped, and whilst the second, which protects the crux, is very worn, I do think that it would hold a fall and it doesn't flex, but there is a much better micro-wire placement just above which protects the crux just as well, if not better.
The approach along the crest is not very nice and it is probably advisable to rope up for this. There are two obvious lower-offs. We used the one at the seaward end of the crest (which looked newer) and it was fine, but it should be noted that it is unidirectional and that you can only safely abseil down the slab from this anchor and NOT down the overhanging face.
Unfortunately, due to the fact that the days are currently a bit short and it was about -3 degrees, we only managed to do the one route in the day. Having said that, in finer temperatures and longer daylight, this route could easily be combined with a trip to the nearby Sharpnose Point in a day. There also seems to be another alternative approach to the base of the cliff via a fisherman's rope down the grassy slopes just north of Moped Zawn. Although it should be said that we didn't try it.
Anyway, it's a great route. Enjoyable and adventurous, steady HVS slab climbing in a great location. Get on it!
Cheers,
Tom
In reply to M. Edwards:
You dont need to go to Yosemite, look at London Wall or Regent Street etc.
> (In reply to BMC Office) I have not read all the views offered on this thread. But my opinion is to let time heal the crags, with the help of man at times too. Let the pegs rust and therefore encourage a peg-free ascent. Damaging the rock further by replacing pegs will open cracks and destroy the original route. Eventually after years of continual replacement there will be pockets (Take a trip to Yosemite for the evidence).
You dont need to go to Yosemite, look at London Wall or Regent Street etc.
In reply to Al Evans: I wonder how hard these routes would be with their original crack sizes intact? Certainly London wall would not get its on-sight solo me thinks... So is aid climbing (with pegs) chipping? I got told by one very famous climber (not related BTW)and shall remain nameless, that he thought placing a peg repeatedly was OK to improve a placement... (?)
In reply to Queequeg:
It is much better to approach and walk out along the beach from Stanbury Mouth - about 30 mins from the parking.
Cheers
Mark
It is much better to approach and walk out along the beach from Stanbury Mouth - about 30 mins from the parking.
Cheers
Mark
In reply to M. Edwards: London Wall would not be done, the crack was climbed on knife blades or the equivalent in 1956, there was no useable crack for free climbing. Easy to see what it would be like, just climb London Wall without using the crack.
In reply to Al Evans: So chipping via the back door then...?
In reply to Mark Glaister:
Cheers Mark. I didn't know about that approach. We took the crest as it was high tide anyway, but cheers for the tip.
Tom
Cheers Mark. I didn't know about that approach. We took the crest as it was high tide anyway, but cheers for the tip.
Tom
In reply to Al Evans: Quote from the 1991 Froggatt guide
" Climbed using especially thin pegs for the then hairline crack, the ascent took about 4 hours.
'The hardest climb on the crag...a thrilling and spectacular route'
First free ascent 1975."
" Climbed using especially thin pegs for the then hairline crack, the ascent took about 4 hours.
'The hardest climb on the crag...a thrilling and spectacular route'
First free ascent 1975."
In reply to M. Edwards:
As are most of the free versions of the old peg routes at Millstone and Lawrencefield.
> (In reply to Al Evans) So chipping via the back door then...?
As are most of the free versions of the old peg routes at Millstone and Lawrencefield.
In reply to Queequeg:
Glad you enjoyed it. Repeated it myself recently after a gap of a decade or two, and found a good 0 Friend placement at the second peg, which also makes it unnecessary. For the record, I only placed one peg on the FA, the lower one (hence it's original E1 grade): the other appeared at a later date.
The advantage of approaching from Stanbury Mouth (tide permitting) is that you can take in a route on Hippa Rock on the way.
I'm sure comments like yours are the way forward. Come down and do the routes, and when you find redundant or rotten pegs let everyone know.
> (In reply to BMC Office)
>
> The pegs on this route are now redundant. The first is snapped, and whilst the second, which protects the crux, is very worn, I do think that it would hold a fall and it doesn't flex, but there is a much better micro-wire placement just above which protects the crux just as well, if not better.
>
> The pegs on this route are now redundant. The first is snapped, and whilst the second, which protects the crux, is very worn, I do think that it would hold a fall and it doesn't flex, but there is a much better micro-wire placement just above which protects the crux just as well, if not better.
Glad you enjoyed it. Repeated it myself recently after a gap of a decade or two, and found a good 0 Friend placement at the second peg, which also makes it unnecessary. For the record, I only placed one peg on the FA, the lower one (hence it's original E1 grade): the other appeared at a later date.
The advantage of approaching from Stanbury Mouth (tide permitting) is that you can take in a route on Hippa Rock on the way.
I'm sure comments like yours are the way forward. Come down and do the routes, and when you find redundant or rotten pegs let everyone know.
In reply to Al Evans: I think it just goes to prove how fickle ethics are in climbing. I also think as a sport our history is so important to the younger generations, and those new-comers to the sport. It's a shame many people don't know the names of climbers like the Pete Liveseys, although controversial, gave us what we have today... a sport and not just a pastime.
In reply to M. Edwards:
Certainly not intentionally. My understanding is that, back in the 1950s, Millstone and Lawrencefield were vegetated heaps of tot, regarded as fit for pegging practice (for the Alps) and little else. Sure there were a few 'visionaries', e.g. Brown doing Great North Road free and, slightly later, John Loy on Satan's Slit. But I don't think anybody really thought that pegging would produce such brilliant fingerlocks.
Methinks an accident of history, no more...
Mick
> (In reply to Al Evans) So chipping via the back door then...?
Certainly not intentionally. My understanding is that, back in the 1950s, Millstone and Lawrencefield were vegetated heaps of tot, regarded as fit for pegging practice (for the Alps) and little else. Sure there were a few 'visionaries', e.g. Brown doing Great North Road free and, slightly later, John Loy on Satan's Slit. But I don't think anybody really thought that pegging would produce such brilliant fingerlocks.
Methinks an accident of history, no more...
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Indeed, Mick, but it makes those who drill boltholes in granite feel better about themselves to call it chipping.
Guess no-one told Dave Macleod about this thread, then....
jcm
Indeed, Mick, but it makes those who drill boltholes in granite feel better about themselves to call it chipping.
Guess no-one told Dave Macleod about this thread, then....
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Hand on heart.. "most" of the bolt holes I drilled in granite were to replace hard steel pegs (stainless steel bolts being the only alternative at the time) that would rot in a few months. The "game" was to traditionally eliminate these bolts (like pegs) to make a cleaner ascent. I personally did not want to see the peg placement repeatedly placed, and open up the cracks (I had seen so much of this during my visits to Yosemite in the 80's). So, rightly or wrongly, this was my motivation for my bolts on Cornish Granite. I have now eliminated most of my bolts, and the cracks are still "original" today as when I found them. So, I do feel a small sense of satisfaction in that.
In reply to Iain Peters:
FWIW - I did it last summer and thought it was an excellent route. If it got regular ascents it would be a very very fine route indeed. It's very reasonable at the grade too.
I took the Stanbury Mouth approach (thanks for the beta Mark) which seemed pretty straightforward.
FWIW - I did it last summer and thought it was an excellent route. If it got regular ascents it would be a very very fine route indeed. It's very reasonable at the grade too.
I took the Stanbury Mouth approach (thanks for the beta Mark) which seemed pretty straightforward.
In reply to M. Edwards:
Really?? Surely most if not all of your bolts were on new routes and thus weren't replacing anything?
jcm
Really?? Surely most if not all of your bolts were on new routes and thus weren't replacing anything?
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: True, I agree with what I think your saying... a new route is far better without any fixed gear. The fact is, and this runs throughout climbing history in the British Isles, pegs have often been used on new routes where other protection cannot be found. And you have to remember, during the 70's 80's and into the 90's when I was actively putting up many new routes in West Penwith, there was absolutely no "official BMC policy" for fixed gear on Cornish rock. Biven had place bolts on Bosigran (1966), Kift han put aid bolts on Tramps Overcoat at Sennen (1970), Burning Gold (1978) by mysterious unknown climbers, but climbed free (using the bolts) by Pat Littlejohn. These are just three examples. My ethics where to minimise the use of fixed gear as much as possible (funnily I was often criticised for this too!) You put yourself out there for critisism when you put up a new route, your instantly have your head above the parapet and get knocked down, also a British traight I think
In reply to Team BMC:
I am currently trying to establish how many fixed pegs there actually are on the North Coast of D&C, and as far as possible note what state they're in, but it's a mammoth task. Remember too that this region does not have a large centrally based climbing community like Llanberis or Sheffield. There is only a handful of local activists and no clearly defined consensus over the use of pegs (or even grades!). As far as I'm aware there is only one person who regularly places stakes above routes, Dave Hillebrandt, which he provides at his own expense. As for painting them green, it might work on the short turf of Baggy, but they'd disaappear completely in many other locations. Fluorescent orange might be more appropriate.
I'm sure that pegs will gradually disappear from the crags, as modern gear technology develops but given the sheer variety of the geology, and the seriousness of many of the cliffs (Tintagel, Carn Gowla, Exmansworthy to name just a few) it won't happen overnight. Far more important is the need to encourage more climbers to venture off the beaten track, and publicity in the form of new guides, wikis, forums and articles etc is the best way forward.
I am currently trying to establish how many fixed pegs there actually are on the North Coast of D&C, and as far as possible note what state they're in, but it's a mammoth task. Remember too that this region does not have a large centrally based climbing community like Llanberis or Sheffield. There is only a handful of local activists and no clearly defined consensus over the use of pegs (or even grades!). As far as I'm aware there is only one person who regularly places stakes above routes, Dave Hillebrandt, which he provides at his own expense. As for painting them green, it might work on the short turf of Baggy, but they'd disaappear completely in many other locations. Fluorescent orange might be more appropriate.
I'm sure that pegs will gradually disappear from the crags, as modern gear technology develops but given the sheer variety of the geology, and the seriousness of many of the cliffs (Tintagel, Carn Gowla, Exmansworthy to name just a few) it won't happen overnight. Far more important is the need to encourage more climbers to venture off the beaten track, and publicity in the form of new guides, wikis, forums and articles etc is the best way forward.
In reply to M. Edwards: Mark, don't forget the bolt used on the first ascent of Satans Slip on Lundy
In reply to Al Evans: If only all fixed gear was as easy to remove as with a "swift blow with a karabiner" as I. Duckworth did 10yrs after it was first drilled and placed. That's sea cliffs for you!
In reply to Iain Peters: I thought it was you, or maybe it was Pete o'Sullivan, that told me Exmansworthy had fallen down, way back in 1989? (we were on the Baggy campsite with John Barry at the time).
In reply to Al Evans:
Oh no it hasn't ...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=190984
> (In reply to Iain Peters) I thought it was you, or maybe it was Pete o'Sullivan, that told me Exmansworthy had fallen down, way back in 1989? (we were on the Baggy campsite with John Barry at the time).
Oh no it hasn't ...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=190984
In reply to Andy2: Looks like your close to ticking all of Bosigrans recent guide (your latest climbs)... Have to say, I have done this too and added a few of my own. Wonder how many others have done it?
In reply to M. Edwards: Wish I could do Evil Eye, but can't get started on the nasty overhanging groove right at the bottom; bridging - uggh !
In reply to Al Evans:
Andy's right. It's still there and the new guide will include full descriptions of all the routes together with detailed access notes. Perhaps Crocker's The Ex-man Cometh will soon see a peg-free repeat along with the superb slab routes at Smoothlands near Hartland?
> ...that told me Exmansworthy had fallen down, way back in 1989? ).
Andy's right. It's still there and the new guide will include full descriptions of all the routes together with detailed access notes. Perhaps Crocker's The Ex-man Cometh will soon see a peg-free repeat along with the superb slab routes at Smoothlands near Hartland?
In reply to Andy2: Long, long time since I did this one, when it was E3 or E4 and 6a. Thought it hard for the grade then, but got the on-sight on a hot greasy day. What I remember of the first groove is to get onto the right wall asap... but maybe my memory is hazy on this one. I do remember the gear was bold then, we had no cams in those days. Hey! Good luck though, its worth the effort. Reminds me of a new route I need to get back on down there too!
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