UKC

Alpine grade AD how difficult is this and how does it compare to our british grading

Thanks

In reply to kiliman00:
Varies a lot

and how does it compare to our british grading

It doesn't

In reply to Doug:
Thankyou for that can you expand a little.......

In reply to kiliman00:


Overall Grade Description
F Facile (Easy) A straight forward route, possibly describing a glacier approach with simple scrambling. Any snow or ice will be of an easy angle allowing the climber to walk up it.

PD Peu difficile (not very hard) Harder than routes graded F, with more complex glacier routes, harder scrambling and objective dangers. Routes may also be longer and at altitude. Snow and ice slopes of up 35-45 degrees may be encountered.

AD Assez difficile (fairly hard) More significant slopes of snow and ice will be encountered up to 40-55 degrees. Rock climbing up to grade III may also be encountered but are unlikely to be sustained

D Difficile (hard) A more serious undertaking with possibility of rock climbing at around grade IV & V and snow and ice slopes of up 50-70 degrees.

TD Tres difficile (very hard) Significant and sustained snow and ice slopes of up 65-80 degrees are likely encountered. Hard rock climbing is also a possibility at grades V - VI with some aid routes also a possibility. Routes at this grade are a serious undertaking with high levels of objective danger.




Does that help!? stolen from http://www.mountaindays.net/articles/item/snow_ice_alpine_grades_explained/

In reply to maxots:
Thankyou for that.....

have a good afternoon!!

In reply to kiliman00:

South ridge of Pic du Glacier Blanc, Ecrins, AD. one short pitch of Severe followed by nice scrambling, wee bits of Diff / VDiff. Low peak, easily escapable, very quick and easy descent.

Northeast face of Les Courtes, Mont Blanc massif, AD. 800m of Scottish 1 / 2, big and serious, objective dangers, long and quite complicated descent.

Two examples of routes I've done - the former was lovely, bit like Tower Ridge and quite a relaxing hill day, the latter was very big and very scary. I don't really know how the grading works...

In reply to kiliman00:

one idea is to choose AD routes with escape options that way you can find out for yourself ( with a partner) but can bail if need be.

One such is the Briethorn traverse or ( to shrink it) the east ridge of the central Briethorn summit

east to get to and down from but has classy AD ridge where the most difficult bit ( IV severe) is the start after that its easier so you can enjoy it

In reply to maxots:

Yes, but you need to be able to climb at a much higher standard than these grades suggest, in order to have a lot in reserve in less than ideal conditions/if the weather turns bad. For AD you really need to be able to lead, even solo, VD competently in big boots with a sack on your back in cold, perhaps icy, conditions. That means (roughly) being a competent VS leader in sticky boots, in good conditions in the UK. The higher grade equivalents would be: Difficile: HVS, TD: E1, ED: E2 and above. Just my opinion about the levels of competence required on rock to climb Alpine routes safely. The ice climbing equivalent grades are perhaps a little less demanding, because the nature of the climbing has more in common.

Very long scrambling routes, with rock pitches, eg. the Cuillin Ridge, or parts of it, will be better training, anyway, than most rock climbing routes.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Thankyou for all the information

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
That means (roughly) being a competent VS leader in sticky boots, in good conditions in the UK.

Not really relevant in my experience. What is important is being able cover easier ground rapidly and very confidently. To the OP: don't try and compare UK grades to Alpine grades, it simply doesn't work.


Very true. The full traverse including TD gap etc. would probably be AD in the alps. If you can do this competently you will get on all right on routes of a similar style (i.e rock) in the alps .

In reply to kiliman00:

I'd say that to climb alpine AD you'd want to be happy leading UK severe in big boots and a rucksack. You might also have to do some relatively easy moves on rock in crampons. Pitches of this difficulty might not be that common on ADs but you do encounter them.

For snow and ice work, leading Scottish II/III but with the added complications of alpine terrain thrown in.

You've also got to add in the other factors associated with alpine "adjectival" grades: objective dangers, protection, exposure, length, difficulty of retreat and so on.

On alpine pure rock grades (eg in the Aiguilles Rouges) the technical difficulty will be relatively higher for a given grade. (And so, off topic, doing an "alpine", say, TD pure rock route doesn't count as a TD alpine grade in one's profile on here in my book.)

Looking at your profile, my suggestion would be to start on easy routes, gain experience and work up. The jump from alpine F to AD is bigger than the jump from UK Diff to Severe.

HTH

In reply to kiliman00: If it is familiar to you Tower Ridge in summer would be around PD in the alps. Crib Goch, Aonach Eagach probably F. But even these don't really translate.

In reply to Solaris:

Bah, rumbled I agree though! Doing some technically hard rock that gets TD just because it's on a mountain doesn't really compare with some big mixed horror at that grade

In reply to maxots:
Its important to remember that when it sys rock III (about VDiff), this may be under snow at times even in summer and it is almost certain you will need to be able to move quickly over it in big boots...

In reply to kiliman00:

What everyone else said!

Here's a couple of further examples;

Example 1, Rochefort Arete; Classic AD ridge, a long section of chossy scrambling to get to the ridge, must move together placing little gear to be fast enough, then scottish I on the ridge but only a boot width wide in places and up to 50 degrees for parts, again, you'll need to move together and not misplace a crampon. Lastly about 80m of sometimes iced up rock of V Diff standard with many loose stones and some larger loose blocks, again needs climbing quickly. Finally either reverse all that or descend a long and complex glacier. Oh and you need to be off the snow ridge by 10 am or you'll be climbing along knife edged slush.

So, overall, technically, Scottish I and V Diff in good nick or, when the rocks are iced, Scottish I and then mixed III but it need completing quickly and with no errors. Therein lies the challenge and difference between the Alps and Britain.

Example 2: Zinal Rothorn North ridge, a major classic in Switzerland.
Glacier approach for a couple of hours, possibly crevassed, then a knife edged snow ridge up to 40 degrees, must move together. Finally a multi towered, very exposed and often snowy rock arete with sections of V Diff. In descent reverse the route or descend another AD on the other side of the peak. Once again the overall technicalities, presuming dry rock and snow, not ice on the arete are about Scottish I and V Diff, but you need to move together, in less than ideal rock conditions, at high altitude and sustain a decent pace or you end up descending the snow ridge when it is all slushy, like we did, and having a brown trouser moment or 5.

In reply to kiliman00: I agree with Gordon. Assuming a general background of walking, navigation etc and decent fitness, if you can lead trad multipitch E1 competently in the UK in rock shoes you will probably cope with summer Alpine TD and have something in reserve. Etc. It's not unreasonable to make such comparisons. Of course there are short, relatively unserious TDs (Midi S Face) and big serious ones (Gervasutti Pillar). But the guidebooks will make such distinctions clear.

Some older routes graded AD especially in old guidebooks are very serious. Eg Matterhorn Zmutt ridge (now D), Bionassay NW face.

In reply to Si dH:

...and crampons. It really helps if you can climb over this kind of rocky terrain whilst wearing crampons as it may not always be possible to put crampons on/take them off when desired, and it will save a loit of time over the course of a route (even if it does make you a little slower actually moving over the rock).

What Gordon Stainforth says about leading VS in rock shoes in Britain seems to have transposed well to alpine AD in my (fairly limited) experience FWIW.

Byron

In reply to Solaris: "(And so, off topic, doing an "alpine", say, TD pure rock route doesn't count as a TD alpine grade in one's profile on here in my book.)"

How so? the bonnatti pillar was TD, that was pretty serious. take all the routes on the grand capicun as well.

to the OP, i think being able to move quickly on the easy pitches is more important than cruising the hardest ones (which would still help). but dispensing with the easy pitches quickly is what really saves time.
i guess it depends what king of route you're after. if its mainly rock then i dont see why you need to be able to climb it in big boots as there is just no need.

In reply to Heddwyn:

Fair point. What I meant by "pure rock routes" was routes such as those in the Aig Rouges or on the Dibona which (normally) don't requre mountaineering skills to approach and get off safely and on which vagaries in the weather don't have a big impact on success or failure. For me, it's a question of whether the particular kinds of seriousness associated with alpine mountaineering are included in the grade. It's a grey area, but personally, I don't feel I've done proper alpine TD even though I've done guidebook TDs in alpine areas.

But to get back on topic...

In reply to kiliman00:

Thankyou for the fantastic responce Im getting the message, lets put a route to it say the Mittellegi Ridge.......

In reply to kiliman00:

I thought the Mittellegi was D not AD?

In reply to Glen:

Is it the south ridge that is AD then Im sure Ive seen in a guide the Mittellegi down as AD, have you done it Glen??

In reply to kiliman00:

May have been down in guide as AD if it's an older one perhaps?

I've not done it, but there are some nice pics and info here:

http://cosleyhouston.com/eiger-mittellegi.htm
http://www.summitpost.org/route/155774/mittellegi-ridge.html