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There is a significant weight difference between myself and my climbing partner, ~40kg. We climb at alien rock and ratho in edinburgh, Alien Rock has big sandbags we use when top roping as a ground anchor and this would be suitable for leading when there. However Ratho doesn't have these, we usually put a couple of twists in the rope with increase the friction but this wont be possible when leading, any suggestions?
Thanks
Thanks
In reply to Phatman:
As it's a common scenario, and with children you would often want a ground anchor of some sort I am sure they must have some way of dealing with this.
(K2 (Crawley) has some bolts in the ground, slightly hidden away in the floor.)
First step for me would be to ask them.
As it's a common scenario, and with children you would often want a ground anchor of some sort I am sure they must have some way of dealing with this.
(K2 (Crawley) has some bolts in the ground, slightly hidden away in the floor.)
First step for me would be to ask them.
I did mention it to them, at the front desk, apparently not something they have fitted or provide, a bit of an oversight...
In reply to Phatman: Just an idea!!!!
Could you not use an old rucksack and put a bag of builders sand inside (two if required).
You could then anchor to the carrying straps, the small baggage loop or some other suitable method.
The rucksack would be an easy way the carry the sandbag to and from the climb, indoors or out.
Could you not use an old rucksack and put a bag of builders sand inside (two if required).
You could then anchor to the carrying straps, the small baggage loop or some other suitable method.
The rucksack would be an easy way the carry the sandbag to and from the climb, indoors or out.
In reply to Phatman: Eat a lot of pies
In reply to Nigel R: To late I already did...
In reply to Phatman:
>we usually put a couple of twists in the rope with increase the friction but this wont be possible when leading
isnt this potentially dangerous!
if you lower the climber too fast it will start to melt the sheath of the rope. or even in a fall if there is some slack this will also create friction damaging the rope.
even if they are center ropes, which are designed to be abused, this is some abuse that can easily be avoided. try using two (back to back) carabiners with the belay devive
>we usually put a couple of twists in the rope with increase the friction but this wont be possible when leading
> Thanks
isnt this potentially dangerous!
if you lower the climber too fast it will start to melt the sheath of the rope. or even in a fall if there is some slack this will also create friction damaging the rope.
even if they are center ropes, which are designed to be abused, this is some abuse that can easily be avoided. try using two (back to back) carabiners with the belay devive
In reply to dobby 200:
Not dangerous since the section of rope that's being abraded is constantly changing, so no one section will get hot. Not great for the longevity of the ropes though I suspect, as the constant rubbing will definitely wear the sheath more quickly.
Using two krabs in the belay device is a good idea for creating more friction, but this only helps you lock the device onto the rope and won't help at all in keeping you off the ground once it's locked.
What may be of help would be to add rope-drag artificially, such as by additionally clipping the first bolt of an adjacent route with a sling. Prior to falling the sling will hang diagonally so the rop-drag may not be too bad but after a fall the taut rope makes a pronounced zigzag. Not terribly easy to explain in words though and because the length of the sling is quite critical it may not be a good thing to do unless you've thought it through well and tested it.
Not dangerous since the section of rope that's being abraded is constantly changing, so no one section will get hot. Not great for the longevity of the ropes though I suspect, as the constant rubbing will definitely wear the sheath more quickly.
Using two krabs in the belay device is a good idea for creating more friction, but this only helps you lock the device onto the rope and won't help at all in keeping you off the ground once it's locked.
What may be of help would be to add rope-drag artificially, such as by additionally clipping the first bolt of an adjacent route with a sling. Prior to falling the sling will hang diagonally so the rop-drag may not be too bad but after a fall the taut rope makes a pronounced zigzag. Not terribly easy to explain in words though and because the length of the sling is quite critical it may not be a good thing to do unless you've thought it through well and tested it.
In reply to dobby 200:
The issue is the belayer being yanked off the floor, not lack of friction at the belay device, if the wall hasn't provided sandbags, loops or chain links in the floor or bolts low on the wall itself to anchor to then a twist in the rope is quite effective when top roping.
The issue is the belayer being yanked off the floor, not lack of friction at the belay device, if the wall hasn't provided sandbags, loops or chain links in the floor or bolts low on the wall itself to anchor to then a twist in the rope is quite effective when top roping.
In reply to EddInaBox:
Can`t see how a twist in the rope can be effective.
I have to anchor most of my belayers , as some are about half my weight(100kilos), and a 50kilo differential is too much to make up for with a twist .
A few walls don`t provide any means of making up the weight difference-they normally give the excuse of some Health and Safety rubbish.
Doesn`t help much when you want to climb.
Can`t see how a twist in the rope can be effective.
I have to anchor most of my belayers , as some are about half my weight(100kilos), and a 50kilo differential is too much to make up for with a twist .
A few walls don`t provide any means of making up the weight difference-they normally give the excuse of some Health and Safety rubbish.
Doesn`t help much when you want to climb.
In reply to Phatman: never used them myself but once saw a guy not clip the first two bolts of a route at the Foundry,he fell and his girlfreind hit the wall with a right crack,and he limped to hospital,
Just thought of a potentially better solution I haven't heard anyone mention before:
Use a cow's tail or sling on your harness belay loop with a screwgate on the loose end. Then clip another screwgate to the first bolt, separately to the quickdraw also clipped in it.
Now clip the rope so that it goes from the 'dead' end on the floor, through the belay device, then up and through the first bolt screwgate, down again and through the cow's tail screwgate, before returning up through the quickdraws as the climber leads.
This will essentially add a 3-way pulley into the belay system such that a fall should create very much less upward force on the belayer.
If anyone's sure they follow my description above and confident they can test the process safely I'd be keen to know how well it works in practice.
If the adjacent route is free too it would probably be less cluttered to use the first bolt of that route for the belay screwgate instead. The mechanics of the process wouldn't really change.
Anyone tried such a system before?
Use a cow's tail or sling on your harness belay loop with a screwgate on the loose end. Then clip another screwgate to the first bolt, separately to the quickdraw also clipped in it.
Now clip the rope so that it goes from the 'dead' end on the floor, through the belay device, then up and through the first bolt screwgate, down again and through the cow's tail screwgate, before returning up through the quickdraws as the climber leads.
This will essentially add a 3-way pulley into the belay system such that a fall should create very much less upward force on the belayer.
If anyone's sure they follow my description above and confident they can test the process safely I'd be keen to know how well it works in practice.
If the adjacent route is free too it would probably be less cluttered to use the first bolt of that route for the belay screwgate instead. The mechanics of the process wouldn't really change.
Anyone tried such a system before?
In reply to john arran: I think that would just create a ton of rope drag, and mean you were even more likely to slam into the wall while holding a fall, because you would be actively pulled into the first bolt, rather than just being lifted up and swinging in under gravity. Also, having the rope run through a pulley 'biner on a cowstail would just generate more direction changes in the rope, and thus more vector forces acting on the belayer. At least, thats my understanding of the mechanics involved
In reply to victorclimber: You mean he decked or he only clipped the 3rd bolt and upwards?
In reply to Rich Ellis:
Try it, take the two ends of the top rope and pass them around each other a few times then hold each end and pull down on one then the other, it will move much less freely.
Write them a letter pointing out that a light belayer could be pulled into the wall or the first clip causing them to drop the climber, and notify them that since the risk has now been pointed out to them failure to take remedial action will make them culpable of negligence in the event there is such an accident.
> Can`t see how a twist in the rope can be effective.
Try it, take the two ends of the top rope and pass them around each other a few times then hold each end and pull down on one then the other, it will move much less freely.
> A few walls don`t provide any means of making up the weight difference-they normally give the excuse of some Health and Safety rubbish.
Write them a letter pointing out that a light belayer could be pulled into the wall or the first clip causing them to drop the climber, and notify them that since the risk has now been pointed out to them failure to take remedial action will make them culpable of negligence in the event there is such an accident.
In reply to stewieatb:
The ropedrag issue is possibly a big problem.
The vector forces really are virtually identical as the belayer will be pulled along the line of the rope toward the first bolt in both cases, just with more or less force.
The ropedrag issue is possibly a big problem.
The vector forces really are virtually identical as the belayer will be pulled along the line of the rope toward the first bolt in both cases, just with more or less force.
In reply to john arran:
Unfortunately because what you have in effect is a z-clip, I suspect the belayer may need to feed rope through the cow's tail krab at the same time as belaying, which could get quite awkward.
Unfortunately because what you have in effect is a z-clip, I suspect the belayer may need to feed rope through the cow's tail krab at the same time as belaying, which could get quite awkward.
In reply to john arran:
Because the belayer isn't tied to anything it would still be possible to give slack and take in by moving forward and back a few paces, which may be enough to give slack to clip, although the pulley effect would mean the belayer would have to move 3 times the distrance of the slack they were giving.
Needs to be tried out in practice really. I can't do so as I'm in France at the moment and don't get to walls often.
Because the belayer isn't tied to anything it would still be possible to give slack and take in by moving forward and back a few paces, which may be enough to give slack to clip, although the pulley effect would mean the belayer would have to move 3 times the distrance of the slack they were giving.
Needs to be tried out in practice really. I can't do so as I'm in France at the moment and don't get to walls often.
In reply to EddInaBox:
Hhhmmmm.... . . What about personal responsibility? If the weight differential is so significant as to be *dangerous* then I would suggest a better course of action would be for them not to climb together.
> (In reply to Rich Ellis)
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>
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> [...]
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> Write them a letter pointing out that a light belayer could be pulled into the wall or the first clip causing them to drop the climber, and notify them that since the risk has now been pointed out to them failure to take remedial action will make them culpable of negligence in the event there is such an accident.
> [...]
>
> Write them a letter pointing out that a light belayer could be pulled into the wall or the first clip causing them to drop the climber, and notify them that since the risk has now been pointed out to them failure to take remedial action will make them culpable of negligence in the event there is such an accident.
Hhhmmmm.... . . What about personal responsibility? If the weight differential is so significant as to be *dangerous* then I would suggest a better course of action would be for them not to climb together.
1
In reply to Phatman:
There are bolts low down (~waist height) on the lead wall that my wife has used to anchor to when belaying me there. If you use them take it easy until you get used to how they pull the belayer when you fall/lower off but they do the job.
P.S. We asked the instructors on the floor and it was them that gave this advice...
There are bolts low down (~waist height) on the lead wall that my wife has used to anchor to when belaying me there. If you use them take it easy until you get used to how they pull the belayer when you fall/lower off but they do the job.
P.S. We asked the instructors on the floor and it was them that gave this advice...
In reply to john arran:
sorry to keep replying to myself but I'm just thinking this through for the first time!
To give slack without any rope drag at all you would actually only need to move the same distance as the slack needed, so that shouldn't be an issue. The difficulty is that in doing so you would at the same time be adding two times more slack, between belay and first bolt. To do this safely you may actually have to be TAKING IN this 'unwanted' slack while you're walking forward to give unimpeded slack, which is quite counterintuitive!
sorry to keep replying to myself but I'm just thinking this through for the first time!
To give slack without any rope drag at all you would actually only need to move the same distance as the slack needed, so that shouldn't be an issue. The difficulty is that in doing so you would at the same time be adding two times more slack, between belay and first bolt. To do this safely you may actually have to be TAKING IN this 'unwanted' slack while you're walking forward to give unimpeded slack, which is quite counterintuitive!
In reply to Nick B, Another One: Thanks Nick, i'll look into that.
Are sandbags and ground anchors found at most walls? Seems to me anyone starting out climbing might not think about a significant weight difference between partners or might appreciate the added security.
Are sandbags and ground anchors found at most walls? Seems to me anyone starting out climbing might not think about a significant weight difference between partners or might appreciate the added security.
In reply to Richard123:
I wouldn't disagree with you, the point of my post is that the most effective way to counter someone who uses health and safety as the default excuse because in reality they can't be bothered to do something, is to give them a health and safety reason why they should and to put it on record. Although this could backfire when they just ban the activity instead.
I wouldn't disagree with you, the point of my post is that the most effective way to counter someone who uses health and safety as the default excuse because in reality they can't be bothered to do something, is to give them a health and safety reason why they should and to put it on record. Although this could backfire when they just ban the activity instead.
Ask another climber to backup the bleayer till the 3rd bolt.
Nick
Nick
In reply to Phatman:
Ok, been in this situation a lot, as my regular climbing partners since I started climbing have generally been much lighter than me (45 kg diff to start then around 40kg now). I'm aout 90kg.
Both partners have belayed me inside and outside without bags with no issue. Yes they get pulled off the floor if I take a big fall (Lady Blue can sometimes be pulled off the floor if she's lowering me) but if all parties are experienced and know what they are doing its perfectly safe.
I once pulled with a particularly big fall pulled the belayer and two sandbags into the air.
I'd just practice with it, to be honest, taking bigger and bigger falls until the belayer is used to the sensation and knows to put their legs out when they swing in so they don't hit head-first or knee-first.
There's no sandbags outside, and often there isn't a ground anchor. The belayer being able to cope with any situation from the start is better than them getting into a situation they are not familiar with later.
All in my humble opinion, of course.
Ok, been in this situation a lot, as my regular climbing partners since I started climbing have generally been much lighter than me (45 kg diff to start then around 40kg now). I'm aout 90kg.
Both partners have belayed me inside and outside without bags with no issue. Yes they get pulled off the floor if I take a big fall (Lady Blue can sometimes be pulled off the floor if she's lowering me) but if all parties are experienced and know what they are doing its perfectly safe.
I once pulled with a particularly big fall pulled the belayer and two sandbags into the air.
I'd just practice with it, to be honest, taking bigger and bigger falls until the belayer is used to the sensation and knows to put their legs out when they swing in so they don't hit head-first or knee-first.
There's no sandbags outside, and often there isn't a ground anchor. The belayer being able to cope with any situation from the start is better than them getting into a situation they are not familiar with later.
All in my humble opinion, of course.
In reply to john arran:
sorry, can't see how this would be practical at all.
I'm suprised no one has suggested the use of concentration, balance, stance and body positioning as a solution.
the climbing partner I probably trust most at the moment is about 9 stone to my 14. She never clips in, and has never let me hit the floor while I've been leading.
I have sometimes dragged her off the floor when I've fallen, but never dragged her anywhere near as far as the first quickdraw, which would stop her anyway.
Don't let loads of slack develop, stand close to the wall, and drop your weight into your harness if the heavier leader falls. If you are pulled in and or up be prepared to brace your feet against the wall. You'll need to experiment with different stances to find what works for you. If there's nothing in place anchor wise at the wall, why not ask a member of staff, and when they say there's nothing, ask them or another climber to whatch you while you experiment until you are confident you can hold your partner?
cheers
Nikki-wow-I-went-a-long-way-that-time-K
sorry, can't see how this would be practical at all.
I'm suprised no one has suggested the use of concentration, balance, stance and body positioning as a solution.
the climbing partner I probably trust most at the moment is about 9 stone to my 14. She never clips in, and has never let me hit the floor while I've been leading.
I have sometimes dragged her off the floor when I've fallen, but never dragged her anywhere near as far as the first quickdraw, which would stop her anyway.
Don't let loads of slack develop, stand close to the wall, and drop your weight into your harness if the heavier leader falls. If you are pulled in and or up be prepared to brace your feet against the wall. You'll need to experiment with different stances to find what works for you. If there's nothing in place anchor wise at the wall, why not ask a member of staff, and when they say there's nothing, ask them or another climber to whatch you while you experiment until you are confident you can hold your partner?
cheers
Nikki-wow-I-went-a-long-way-that-time-K
In reply to John_Hat: Thanks for your reply John.
In reply to nikinko:
Yes, you're probably right but I still think it's an interesting idea for very extreme weight differences. Would need some work and refinement probably.
I also agree that it's very rare that weight differences are great enough to really NEED any 'solution' at all, other than preparedness, good stance and positioning, and a readiness to be pulled a short way as the strain comes onto the rope.
> sorry, can't see how this would be practical at all.
Yes, you're probably right but I still think it's an interesting idea for very extreme weight differences. Would need some work and refinement probably.
I also agree that it's very rare that weight differences are great enough to really NEED any 'solution' at all, other than preparedness, good stance and positioning, and a readiness to be pulled a short way as the strain comes onto the rope.
In reply to John_Hat:
beat me to it!
I've had a man and one bag both in the air before, but that was an exeption, I was about to clip the second from top and fell unexpectedly with a load of slack out and neither of us expecting it. word had it that when I tried again the belayer was shaking as much as me when I got back to where I fell from.
beat me to it!
> I once pulled with a particularly big fall pulled the belayer and two sandbags into the air.
I've had a man and one bag both in the air before, but that was an exeption, I was about to clip the second from top and fell unexpectedly with a load of slack out and neither of us expecting it. word had it that when I tried again the belayer was shaking as much as me when I got back to where I fell from.
In reply to john arran:
I do like the zen like state of mind to overcome physics.
Great belayers can be lighter, my mate Pete can rapidly approach the wall if i come off , or the rope/lower off is slick.He is happy fending off the wall with one hand or foot.
Should you be happy with people having to be good in the air or fast approaching the wall when climbing indoors?
I happily climb better with equal weight people , but cannot always find them when out training.
Outdoors i tend to try to fall off less.
I do like the zen like state of mind to overcome physics.
Great belayers can be lighter, my mate Pete can rapidly approach the wall if i come off , or the rope/lower off is slick.He is happy fending off the wall with one hand or foot.
Should you be happy with people having to be good in the air or fast approaching the wall when climbing indoors?
I happily climb better with equal weight people , but cannot always find them when out training.
Outdoors i tend to try to fall off less.
In reply to stewieatb: he clipped the 3rd bolt i think it was but she had lots of slack out ,as he seemed to be a decent climber,he slipped and pulled her to the wall ..
In reply to Phatman: my regular partner is 7 stone lighter than me and though she uses a sand bag when available it is not needed most of the time.
Good belaying and stance means that she does not come of the floor very often.
On the odd time she has come off the floor with out a sandbag she comes up and I come down but she has never reached the first clip and I trust her not to let go of the rope.
Once she stops and takes a moment to compose she will then lower herself down followed by me.
Works great but you need a lot of trust that the belay person wont panic and let go of the rope as they leave the floor.
Good belaying and stance means that she does not come of the floor very often.
On the odd time she has come off the floor with out a sandbag she comes up and I come down but she has never reached the first clip and I trust her not to let go of the rope.
Once she stops and takes a moment to compose she will then lower herself down followed by me.
Works great but you need a lot of trust that the belay person wont panic and let go of the rope as they leave the floor.
In reply to Phatman:
Isnt it easier to learn to pre-empt the fall, and be pulled into the air. Also if you learn to dynamic belay then you can lessen the force on you and your partner and so not get lifted as high... When practice falling with a partner half my weight we got to the point where she was happy being pulled off the ground and even on some occasions ended up higher than me, its fine as long as your belayer is paying attention, and it helps if your on an overhanging route with nothing to hit.
In answer to another question, most walls have a method of securing a belayer to the floor, they (the belayer) are expected to bring there own sling and HMS. In all the walls ive visted there have either been bolt rings in the floor or bolts at the foot of the climb or at waist level.
Hope this helps
Simon
Isnt it easier to learn to pre-empt the fall, and be pulled into the air. Also if you learn to dynamic belay then you can lessen the force on you and your partner and so not get lifted as high... When practice falling with a partner half my weight we got to the point where she was happy being pulled off the ground and even on some occasions ended up higher than me, its fine as long as your belayer is paying attention, and it helps if your on an overhanging route with nothing to hit.
In answer to another question, most walls have a method of securing a belayer to the floor, they (the belayer) are expected to bring there own sling and HMS. In all the walls ive visted there have either been bolt rings in the floor or bolts at the foot of the climb or at waist level.
Hope this helps
Simon
In reply to Phatman: there are bolts low down for exactly this purpose on the lead walls.
In reply to Dax H:
that's a good point. I usually ask someone who is lighter than me if they want a bag. If they are confident they don't need one I am happy... if they dither about before answering I usually get them to use one.
> Works great but you need a lot of trust that the belay person wont panic and let go of the rope as they leave the floor.
that's a good point. I usually ask someone who is lighter than me if they want a bag. If they are confident they don't need one I am happy... if they dither about before answering I usually get them to use one.
In reply to nikinko:
I've been belayed when taking leader falls by someone about 5 stone lighter than my 13 1/2 stone. She's had no problems but she's experienced. Recently I've been climbing with a girl who's about 6 stone lighter than me and she needs a sandbag as I lift her off the ground on a lower off and she's not been belaying long.
> (In reply to Dax H)
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> [...]
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> that's a good point. I usually ask someone who is lighter than me if they want a bag. If they are confident they don't need one I am happy... if they dither about before answering I usually get them to use one.
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> that's a good point. I usually ask someone who is lighter than me if they want a bag. If they are confident they don't need one I am happy... if they dither about before answering I usually get them to use one.
I've been belayed when taking leader falls by someone about 5 stone lighter than my 13 1/2 stone. She's had no problems but she's experienced. Recently I've been climbing with a girl who's about 6 stone lighter than me and she needs a sandbag as I lift her off the ground on a lower off and she's not been belaying long.
In reply to Phatman: I'm only little n often belay people 5 stone heavier no problem. I find i'm more likely to come of the ground with a sandbag because they're restricing and belaying is less dynamic. As long as all the bolts are clipped n the belayers paying attention, which should be normal practice, then i don't see a problem.
In reply to sarah the wonderful:
And if your`e just top-roping , what then?
And if your`e just top-roping , what then?
In reply to john arran:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the suggestion here?
When abseiling I put an extra krab in for precisely the opposite reason! By widening the diameter of the turn that the rope makes, it reduces the friction and makes a less "grabby" abseil (I use an old Stitch plate).
J
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> Using two krabs in the belay device is a good idea for creating more friction, but this only helps you lock the device onto the rope
> Using two krabs in the belay device is a good idea for creating more friction, but this only helps you lock the device onto the rope
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the suggestion here?
When abseiling I put an extra krab in for precisely the opposite reason! By widening the diameter of the turn that the rope makes, it reduces the friction and makes a less "grabby" abseil (I use an old Stitch plate).
J
In reply to JJL:
I suspect the sprung sticht plate may be an exception, as the spring may act to prevent the bend in the rope as it exits the device from becoming too tight. With most such devices using two krabs will increase the tightness of this bend and thereby produce more friction. It's very useful for if you ever have to abseil on a single thin rope or to abseil with a heavy bag.
I suspect the sprung sticht plate may be an exception, as the spring may act to prevent the bend in the rope as it exits the device from becoming too tight. With most such devices using two krabs will increase the tightness of this bend and thereby produce more friction. It's very useful for if you ever have to abseil on a single thin rope or to abseil with a heavy bag.
In reply to john arran:
Ah - thnaks for that. Actually the spring is long gone, so it's more a cosmic arrester now.
Italian hitch works pretty well too (but less kind to the rope), even with skinnies.
J
Ah - thnaks for that. Actually the spring is long gone, so it's more a cosmic arrester now.
Italian hitch works pretty well too (but less kind to the rope), even with skinnies.
J
In reply to sarah the wonderful:
I also tend to climb woth people quite a bit heavier than me but don't use a sandbag. It just gets in the way when paying out and takin in slack. But....maybe if the weight diffference is huge, it'd just be best to find a different partner?
I also tend to climb woth people quite a bit heavier than me but don't use a sandbag. It just gets in the way when paying out and takin in slack. But....maybe if the weight diffference is huge, it'd just be best to find a different partner?
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