UKC

Im looking at getting some ice screws and was wondering what make and model people prefered the most and why?

essentially im after some user info on ice screws.

cheers

NC

In reply to Northern Climber:

I use DMM Revolutions, mainly as they are reasonably cheap and simple.

Work well enough.

In reply to Northern Climber:

BD Turbo Express, because it's fast placing and racks well, also has two holes in the hanger for adding more than one crab.

However I'd like to try DMM screws, as I gather they are good even without a handle.

In reply to Merlin: i'm failing to see why the two holes would be an advantage. how does it help?

In reply to Merlin:

Favourite: BD Turdo Express - Easy to start, easy to screw in, easy to rack, two holes for crabs at the belay.

What I'm comparing them with:

Own: BD Turbo Express, Laser Sonic, Grivel 360.

Used: BD Express, Grivel Helix.

Never Used: DMM Revolution.

In reply to galpinos: thanks, you've answered my question about the two holes!

In reply to Northern Climber:

Another vote here for the BD Turbo Express. I also like the DMM revolutions though.

In reply to kathrync: Turbo Express by Black Diamond for me.

Bites very well, esy racking, price not to expensive if compared to similar screws http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN65075 , great handle, two holes for use whilst belay. Simple design which I can't fault. (And its made by BD!)

In reply to Northern Climber: Turbo express as well for me - have used grivel 360, dmm and titanium crap that my mate has too.

In reply to Northern Climber:

The main idea is weight saving however it can be useful if you want to clip gear out of the way, I often clip my rucksack to the additional hole. And if you're using an old reverso in guide mode you can use it to release the load/let out rope.

In reply to Northern Climber:

Own and used: BD Turbo Express, Grivel 360.
Used: Grivel Helix

BD TE: Don't like the little fold out handle, but they are good otherwise and rack well.

Grivel 360: Rack badly but really perfect for awkward spots: can fold the handle out of the way

Grivel Helix: The fastest placing and especially fastest starting of the lot because the shape of the handle really lets you get that first crucial turn in. Ideal for when you are on steep stuff under pressure.

My suggestion would be to get a mix of Helixes and Grivel 360s if the sole criterion is usability as opposed to cost. I would say that cost-cutting on screws is not a good idea because they are so vital to safety and fun.

In reply to Eric Herring:

Own: BD Express, Grivel Helix, DMM Revolution

Used: BD Turbo

Favourite is definitely the Helix by a long, long way - it is by far the easiest to start and place for me, they rack well and I like the little end caps that clip onto the handle so you don't lose them (and they make the handle bigger!)

BD Express is ok, nice screw but I find them fiddly to start in comparison with the Helix. Haven't tried the Grivel 360 but the difficulties with racking put me off somewhat.

DMM Revolution is a very nice screw and only somewhat let down by its lack of a handle (looking forward to seeing the new Evolution screws in the future!). Very easy to place and my choice of 22cm screw for abalakovs etc.

I'd say for use as runners go for an express screw everytime, unless you're on easier ground where life isn't so hurried and strenuous, in which case pretty much any modern screw is good.

In reply to groovy_nut:
I am also looking into buying some screws this season, and my main question is to do with the petzl laser sonics. how many folk have used these screws?? and what do folk think? they seem to me to be a real competitor to the BD turbo express screws, so im a bit intruiged as to how few people so far have used them, and why?

cheers,

BOS

In reply to BallsOfSteel:

I have a Laser Sonic as stated above. Ok to start (harder than a BD TE) but a pain to wind in. The swinging bolt thing doesn't allow it to be left clipped to the rope, it just gets tangled. My least favourite screw.

In reply to Northern Climber: I dislike bd turbo expresses, a partener had them and we had a lot of problems with the handle folding down and getting wee bits of scree/sand in it and then the handle not pulling up and generally being crap and impossible to wind easily with the handle locked down.

I like 360's.

All modern ice screws I've used have been pretty good compared to old school ones though.

In reply to Northern Climber: Screws Used: BD Turbo, Grivel 360 & Helix, Peztl Laser Sonic, DMM Revolution, Crappy Rusky Ti jobs.

Favourites: Helix and BD.

Pros: Both easy to place, quick to start(helix better) and rack wall.
Cons: BD can be a little fiddly with the small handle.

I have a couple of 360s and a long Laser Sonic. Laser sonic is a right pain in the ass to screw in and out, so it gets kept at the back and is there mainly for belays and abalakovs. The sonics have very nice teeth - easy to start! The 360s are good for getting in to tight placements in fluted ice, but are, as said before, a PITA to rack. I keep both of mine in Grivel Tubes.

I'm indifferent when it comes to the DMM ones. They work fine, but I'd rather a helix or BD TE instead.

Crappy Rusky Ti jobs - pretty much useless!

In reply to Northern Climber:

I'm with Eric Herring and Fultonius on Helixes and 360s.

In reply to Merlin:

I'd vote for the BD turbos but I never realised what a rip-off these were here did a quick google and Costwalds has them for £50 each for 19cm - is this typical?

I got mine in MEC (Canada) and a google at their prices are 40-45 CAD each - quite a difference even with 15% added on.

I have one grivel which is placed easy but doesn't rack as easily as the BD screws.

Graeme.

In reply to Northern Climber:

I have DMM Revolutions and Grivel Helix's and have used Crap Screws, Grivel 360's and BD Turbo Expresses.

I have found handles so useful in placing and removing screws that I wouldn't buy a screw without one and regret having my Revolutions. Of the handled ones, 360's are a pain in the arse as they won't rack. At all. Helix's are great and I would say the easiest to get in because of the handle on either side of the body of the screw but the size of the handle hits ice too often which has to be chipped out the way. BD turbo expresses are, in my opinion, the best out there as the handle works well and there is loads of movement in the hanger to get it past lumps of ice. I very nearly bought six of them last week and would have been selling my others!

I haven't tried the Laser Sonic and was interested as I thought that the hanger as a handle idea was good, but have read on this thread that it isn't but am a bit confused as to why?

Not been using screws for very long, but I've tried
new:
12.5cm grivel helix
17cm petzl laser (no spinny handle)

second hand
17cm, 21cm grivel 360
17cm older style grivel
BD express, petzl lasers

best have been the newest, sharpest - the second hand ones mostly pretty blunt, though of the second hand ones, even the old grivel one wasn't too bad (or maybe the ice was just very soft at that point ...)

Definitely the easiest to place are the Helixes. The spinny handle helps, but it's the easy first bite that makes the real difference, and I wonder if that's partly because I only have the pretty short ones (I think shorter screws of any type will tend to bite faster). They are very fast to place, though if the ice is bumpy, you have to clear it flat first if you want to get the wide hanger/handle to fit flush.

For racking, I recently got a petzl ice flute that I wear on a bandolier, and I find it makes a huge difference to ease of use over racking them on snaplinks. (Anyone know how it compares to the Grivel Espresso tubes?)

I find the toughest part is getting the screw to bite - until it does, I find I'm pushing it against the ice, which pushes me off balance.

In reply to KeithAlexander:

For racking I use the plastic crabs fixed to either side of my harness which work a treat; easy one handed ice screw grab. On mixed and belays they are a great place to put axes as well.

Jonnie

In reply to Northern Climber: I have some of each of BD Turbo (older style mostly), Petzl Laser Sonics and Grivel 360's.

The Petzl have the best starting bite when new (IMO) with a very aggressive tooth design and rack well but can be hard work and a bit slow to wind in once past the initial bite if the ice is firm, it's hard to get enough leverage holding onto the wee hanger thing. OK overall though and good for the second (you can leave them clipped in while unwinding if you hold them right and so much reduce the chance of dropping them).

360's are just plain amazing to use but rack like an absolute nightmare if you put them on ice clippers tangling in everything. I have a few and carry them in those tube things (mine are the petzl kind)on a chest bandolier which sorts that out mostly. Super fast to screw in and go into funny places as the handle can get out of the way. You might not want a whole rack of these but having at least a couple on your rack is worthwhile.

BD Turbos are..... OK. Sort of not exceptional in any way but just good in all areas, go in OK, start OK, rack well - a good workhorse choice to form the base of a screw rack.

In reply to Graeme Seggie: Welcome to Cotsworld !

Normal price

http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN31063
http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN65075

In reply to Northern Climber:

Have used BD express, BD non-express, Camp wide bore titanium (forgotten the name, blue colour), Grivel Helix, Grivel 360 and russian..... jobbies.

Grivel helix are the best; quick to start, handle is excellent to keep them moving, but lack of movement in the hanger so can catch bumps in the ice. Rack very well with thier own kind....not so well with company.

BD express not quiet so good as helix to start and wind, but better at dealing with bumps. Social screws that will rack with anything. Non-express the same but slower.

Grivel 360's only used a few times, great once started, and in restricted positions, but a right pain to rack... to the point of needing to be complete 'loners'.

Camp wide bore titanium - don't laugh a good 'screw' if you've skilled! They're cheap and don't bite (and the teeth blunt quick). So whats good? Never use in virgin ice, pick somebody elses 'hole', and just rebore with using thier wider diameter, then they are surprisingly quick, but not as quick as the others above. Therefore great for popular belay points. Good for often climbed routes, saving dosh and weight. Absolutely crap if placing from scratch.

Russain jobbies.....say no more!!

In reply to Northern Climber:

I have a variety of BD Turbo Expresses, Grivel 360s and DMM Revolutions. I have also used BD Turbo, Petzl Lazer Sonic and Grivel Helix screws.

I think that the DMM Revolutions bite as well, if not better, than the others. This is something claimed by DMM too and according to them it's to do with the design of the teeth and the type of metal used.

However, I think screw choice boils down a lot to personal preferences and/or familiarity as much as anything. For example, I'm not bothered by the fact that 360s don't rack and am happy to put up with it. I normally carry 6-8 of these. Alternatively, a friend of mine swears by Lazer Sonics but I dislike them.

At the moment there seems to be a shortage of DMM screws in the shops and BD Turbo Expresses are good value in comparison with Grivel screws, presumably directly related to current exchange rates. So, my advice at the present time would be to buy some BD Expresses over all the others - on the basis that they work very well indeed and are very good value too. A bit of a 'no brainer' perhaps?

In reply to Northern Climber: I've got BD Turbos and Grivel 360's and the 360's are by far the better screw - they bite better and the handle is amazing for getting them into tight spots/featured ice. They are a pain to rack if you try to clip them through the hanger on ice clippers and this was their one negative point for me until someone I was climbing with recommended adding a small loop of 3mm cord to the hanger. You then stiffen it up with a few wraps of electrical tape they rack really well on clippers - simple, effective and basically makes 360's the perfect screw in my opinion. You can also do the same with pegs to make them rack better. Cheers. Rob

In reply to Northern Climber:

to join the crowd, BD expresses (in japan the turbo express was the older model and the turbo doesnt have the little handle).
the new ones start significantly faster than the old ones so reconsider any deals on old stock.

personally i dont find the second hole all that special, but that the hanger is now not black makes a difference with melt.

the 360s are great too, but expensive. im slowly replacing my BDs with more of them, dedicating BDs for belays.
also, 360s are superior for drilling threads - that extra cm or so with the handle out of the way can enough difference.

ive got some laser sonics too but never use them. their first trip out proved them well behind the competition.

In reply to Fultonius:

x2..."Grivel Helix: The fastest placing and especially fastest starting of the lot because the shape of the handle really lets you get that first crucial turn in. Ideal for when you are on steep stuff under pressure."

In reply to Northern Climber:

In my limitied experiecne I prefere BD turbo Expresses simply because they place well, are simple to use and rack well.

I do find them hard to start off sometimes but I've only really been climbing this season so this may be down to bad technique.

I've only really used the BD's so I don't have much to compare them with.

In reply to Rob84:

Hey, thanks for sharing this tip with us Rob. I'm always on the lookout for simple, neat ideas and this is one that I'll definitely try.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:

I've also used split rings to do the same job. However, once thing to be careful about with either option (possibly less so, the cord option but I don't know) is that it is possible to lift your leg and accidentally lift a group of 360s racked this way: if, say, they fall forward having been lifted from the back, the top one can press the loop/split ring on the ice clipper gate and unclip itself. Tinkle, tinkle possibly at great expense. This happened to me twice and I took the rings off

In reply to Eric Herring: this happened to me also, lost 2 screws!!

davey.

In reply to BallsOfSteel:

I use a set of the Petzl's, and they work great, but the main reason I got them was because of a stunningly good price If money was no object, I would probably have gone for something with a fold-out handle to make placement a bit quicker.

In reply to davey_briggs:

You have my sympathy mate.

What really hacked me off was looking like an incompetent ice screw dropping fool (on both occasions I got the screws back). I was completely mystified the first time but saw it happen the second.

Since racking them without the split rings, zero self-unclippage.

In reply to Northern Climber:

Own and still use:- BD Turbo Express, Grivel 360 & Simond Racing

Prefer:- BD Turbo Express & Grivel 360 - ta 4 racking tips!

Got rid of:- Vaude/Lucky Ti screws; Alloy ice screw by a German manufacturer; various drive-in screw out...
Using the Ti and alloy screws really revealed the friction problems - the smaller bore Ti placed okay but the larger bore Ti was an absolute swine; the alloy screw was virtually impossible to place without an axe to turn it.

The Simonds still work well but are heavy, the BDs are great but the handle radius means that clearance is key... and the Grivels are fast and easy to place.

In reply to Northern Climber: The wicked Queen in the Lion,the Witch and the Wardrobe.