UKC

is the double overhand tied with both strands at once, tying an overhand knot?

Or is it another name for water knot, ie an overhand, rethreaded with the 2nd rope?

if its the former, is this stronger than the water knot, or is it just used as its easier to untie after abbing?


cheers

In reply to red1200: The water knot is different to the overhand as you've suggested. The beauty of the overhand is that it is less prone to jamming than other knots. The water knot is however stronger...

In reply to red1200: The double overhand is what you use. Tied with both strands at once, tying an overhand knot.

Will

In reply to red1200:
When abseiling, a double overhand refers to TWO separate overhand knots up against each other. This is very important.

In reply to jonny taylor:

A single knot is known as the European Death Knot, which is alledgedly dangerous, whereas The American Death Triangle is actually dangerous!

Might as well tie 2 just to be safe, redundancy and all that!

In reply to NorthernRock:

I normally use the EDK (as do MLTB), its fine with 18" tails. Tying another just increases the chances of it getting jammed I reckon.

The American Death Triangle is an anchor set up rather than a means of joining rope isn't it? Not sure what its relevance is in this context.

In reply to jonny2vests:
The relevance is that 'mericans call the overhand thing EDK and euros call the dodgy belay set up ADT. The second EDK in the rope does kinda kill the 'merican argument stone dead - on the whole I'd rather have a stuck rope than be dead...

In reply to whispering nic:

or perhaps be an american ;-p

In reply to whispering nic:

Yeah, but just because its got a crap scary name, that doesn't mean it's actually dangerous. Its been tested - its fine. Give me one example where a properly tied and dressed overhand has failed.

In reply to red1200: the first one

Don't know about your 2nd question, but like someone else said, it's less prone to jamming, because it's flat on one side.

It's probably easier to untie too.

In reply to Andy S: PS I usually tie two and with decent tails, just to be 'belt and braces'. If the knot is not going to be touching any rock or running over edges then I just tie one. Make your own mind up. There's plenty on Google about it. Here's one:

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

In reply to red1200:

Is no one capable of remembering or learning anything, ever? This subject just goes round and round, while all experienced climbers in the UK now use the overhand knot as standard for abseils, just as 20-30 years ago the Double Overhand was de rigueur.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: wee bit crabbitts, Gordon?

In reply to Andy S:

Yes.... There's also that wonderful way of doing it that was in vogue in the early eighties: a reef knot with half a double fishermans on either side. Only suitable for very steep/sport pitches ... but the beauty of it was that it could be undone very easily even after it had been very heavily weighted.

In reply to jonny taylor:


No,it isn't. A single overhand knot with adequate tails is all that is needed. End of. Anything else is a) due to a dose of paranoia and b) adds extra complexity which is never good if avoidable. KISS

In reply to GrahamD:

I would just like to point out that anyone using the phrase ‘End of.’ in a discussion is usually about to lose everyone's respect, and probably the argument too.

In reply to EddInaBox:

There were some fatalities in the States when abseiling due to the ropes untying and it was assumed that the climbers had used the overhand knot "because it looks too puny to work". By the time the facts had come out EDK was being used to describe the overhand but the real culprit was the figure of eight.

The reason that the overhand is less likely to jam is that it's asymmetrical.

To Gordon Stainforth: Yep used the reef with fishermans on either side as well.

Beginning of ( )

In reply to jonny2vests: I've no idea whether there are any examples and because I don't want to find out I'll stick with the extra overhand behind the first one.
I've certaily seen a hastily tied double overhand unravel. As I said in slightly different words, better safe and inconvenienced than lying in a pile of shattered bones and blood at the bottom of a crag...

In reply to EddInaBox:

Well I might lose respect but I've yet to see the argument refuted

In reply to red1200:
people use the overhand knot because it will run over all the snags when you come to pull your rope down.
you must ensure there is plenty of tail to the knot, a foot or more.
a figure eight would just roll over and over.
i remember from my spsa training

In reply to red1200:
A good tip for anyone not yet converted to the EDK.
Leave long tails, 18 inches to 2 feet. Its good practice to have a back up in the systen, if the abb tat is say around a tree, use a long sling around the tree and clip it to the abb rope, leave enough slack so that it'll come into force should the tat snap. The heaviest climber should abb first while the lighter one will remain in place watching the setup for any problems. Once down and clear of the rope, the heavier climber will test pull the ropes a few metres to make sure they'll clear the tat/edge of cliff etc. Now the lighter climber can abb knowing that the whole set up took a heavier climber without problems so he can remove the back up before abbing.
Now, those tails you left - everything in the system is as safe as you can make it yet the main knot that allows the abb to happen is not tested or backed up. This isn't a problem if the knot is tied correctly but climbers new to the EDK may have that niggling doubt in the back of their minds. Simply clip a screwgate to the backup sling and tie off the 2 tails with a clove hitch to this additional crab. If you think the knot will start to roll, you'll know the tails are tied off and will stop the roll before reaching the ends. One the heavy guy is down, remove the tail tie offs as they are no longer needed and leave the rope clear for the heavy guy's test pull. The heavy guy's job is not yet done, he needs to hold the bottom of the rope ready to pull tight and stop your abb should their be problems. He can stop you dead should he wish simply by pulling from the bottom end. This isn't a replacement for your prussik but again, yet another safety trick.
Belt and braces it may well be but something i do all the time and I do abb a fair bit. You see folk setting up their abbs and they quite correctly, they use all the safety systems we know about. Prussiks, backed up anchors, proper knot with tails etc yet just a few secs to tie off the tails will give you that bit of reassurance.
Not wishing to sound patronising but rather just giving noob's some confidence while trying something new but dangerous.

In reply to red1200:

No no no. The EDK is a *figure of eight* joining ropes, instead of an overhand knot.

EDK (fig 8) can "roll" along the tails and fall apart.
Overhand knot won't roll, but will be super-tight!

Will

In reply to Will Sheaff: EDK refers to pretty much any flat bend, they can all roll a little, but some more than others, particularly Figure of 8 knots:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_death-knot

In reply to stewieatb:

I stand corrected!

In reply to blanchie14c:

If an overhand knot is dressed neatly there will be virtually no slippage nor any possibility of the knot rolling. I suspect that you could actually happily abseil with as little as 4 inches of tail, but in reality this is going to be counter-intuitive for most abseilers. I'd agree about 18 inches being about optimum; any more and you create a risk that the device or prussik will get attached to the tails in error ( I have seen this happen..)

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Yes, although its not happened to me nor have I seen it happen but as you say, it does happen. A good 'buddy' system with your partner should go towards preventing this happing.

In reply to blanchie14c:

Quickly running your hand along the ropes from knot to tip of the tails confirms they're not in the plate. Just a 2 second part of the pre-flight* check.

*perhaps an inappropriate description assuming you get it all right

As for tying off the ends additionally for fear of your EDK rolling... surely after your first time abseiling there's really no need, it's an easy knot to inspect visually and experience/testing tells us it's perfectly adequate.

jk